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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:43 
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It's his insistence that man and women should be treated completely equally at all times with no other considerations even though if it was the man going to the prison then the children would likely still be with one of their parents. As it is they'll probably end up in care and therefore with an excellent chance of being completely fucked.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:46 
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So they had a trial , at the trial evidence was presented , and they were found guilty and a sentence was passed , taking into account everything that happened during the trial.

For someone to look at it afterwards without being there and to decide 'thats not enough' is fine , however I would expect that to be part of the normal legal system review - not some random minister getting involved ?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:48 
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zaphod79 wrote:
So they had a trial , at the trial evidence was presented , and they were found guilty and a sentence was passed , taking into account everything that happened during the trial.

For someone to look at it afterwards without being there and to decide 'thats not enough' is fine , however I would expect that to be part of the normal legal system review - not some random minister getting involved ?


It is, you can complain about any sentence and ask for a review.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:52 
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markg wrote:
It's his insistence that man and women should be treated completely equally at all times with no other considerations even though if it was the man going to the prison then the children would likely still be with one of their parents. As it is they'll probably end up in care and therefore with an excellent chance of being completely fucked.


I guess I'm looking at the bigger picture, not this particular individual's dubious record on gender equality issues or that he's unquestionably a dick - and using this as yet another stick to beat him with, the point is well and truly made (IMO). It's not impossible that on this particular occasion, notwithstanding he's a knob, he may have a point.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:53 
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It's the ramifications of a patriarchal society that sees women as primary caregivers that means women get more lenient sentences if they have children. He'd be better campaigning for more equal paternity leave and convincing men that it's good and ok to take on more of the caregiving to avoid this kind of issue.

But of course he won't, because he's a disingenuous weaselly shitstain

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:53 
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MaliA wrote:
zaphod79 wrote:
So they had a trial , at the trial evidence was presented , and they were found guilty and a sentence was passed , taking into account everything that happened during the trial.

For someone to look at it afterwards without being there and to decide 'thats not enough' is fine , however I would expect that to be part of the normal legal system review - not some random minister getting involved ?


It is, you can complain about any sentence and ask for a review.


And that appears to be what happened, so I can't see the fuss. The CoA judges wouldn't give two shits what a Tory minister says and he wouldn't be involved after the AG sent it to appeal.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:28 
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I don't get why Mr Trump is obsessing about Confederate statues. I thought he only liked winners.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:30 
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He's fucked now isn't he? Surely must be gone before the end of the year. Even all the joint chiefs have seemingly distanced themselves from him.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:32 
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It's Coup time! Which is great everywhere except Venezuela.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:34 
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markg wrote:
Even all the joint chiefs have seemingly distanced themselves from him.


Quite openly too. The military is, of course, one of the most diverse organisations in the USA, which probably irks Mr Trump and his supporters despite their proclamations of patriotism.

I can't see him going quietly, however.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:35 
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markg wrote:
He's fucked now isn't he? Surely must be gone before the end of the year.


It certainly seems that way - Associating with him is proving to be toxic, as the Business Council thing showed. Might sound odd, but I'd still quite like him to do one or two more stupid things, just enough so that even his die hard supporters turn against him. Er, as long as it's not starting a war or something.. just some of his usual gaffes will do.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:37 
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markg wrote:
He's fucked now isn't he? Surely must be gone before the end of the year. Even all the joint chiefs have seemingly distanced themselves from him.


The thing is, there's no real mechanism short of impeachment, and until Mueller's done, there's probably nothing impeachable.

The only thing that gets him out is if republicans decide that he's going to get them annihilated in the midterms. Based on their current behaviour, they're not distancing themselves enough to show that they think that right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:43 
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Cras wrote:
markg wrote:
He's fucked now isn't he? Surely must be gone before the end of the year. Even all the joint chiefs have seemingly distanced themselves from him.


The thing is, there's no real mechanism short of impeachment, and until Mueller's done, there's probably nothing impeachable.

The only thing that gets him out is if republicans decide that he's going to get them annihilated in the midterms. Based on their current behaviour, they're not distancing themselves enough to show that they think that right now.


Much as I'd like to see Trump go, I too can't see it happening for a long time.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:45 
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Half of these cunts probably think the same way he does but they aren't stupid and who's going to want to be one of the ones who clung on until the end? I don't know, the whole thing just seems increasingly untenable.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:47 
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markg wrote:
Half of these cunts probably think the same way he does but they aren't stupid and who's going to want to be one of the ones who clung on until the end? I don't know, the whole thing just seems increasingly untenable.


I thought that, but I think the current count of house republicans who've spoken out against his press conference statements is 14 out of 292.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:52 
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Yeah, I'm sure there's lots of shady meetings going on right now, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:00 
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Kern wrote:
I don't get why Mr Trump is obsessing about Confederate statues. I thought he only liked winners.

I liked this thread on Twitter: https://twitter.com/drvox/status/897558666110488576




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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:06 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Kern wrote:
I don't get why Mr Trump is obsessing about Confederate statues. I thought he only liked winners.

I liked this thread on Twitter: https://twitter.com/drvox/status/897558666110488576



Much as I like the content, perhaps Twitter is not the right platform to deliver such a wordy discourse


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:19 
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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:19 
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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:19 
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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:19 
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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:19 
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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:19 
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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:20 
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DavPaz wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Kern wrote:
I don't get why Mr Trump is obsessing about Confederate statues. I thought he only liked winners.

I liked this thread on Twitter: https://twitter.com/drvox/status/897558666110488576



Much as I like the content, perhaps Twitter is not the right platform to deliver such a wordy discourse


The first Tweet links to a single article which expands on the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 18:38 
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Good piece by Kevin Levin of CWMemory on why it's not just Confederate generals that are problematic on statues.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:51 
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Vice's 22-min documentary on the Charlottesville protesters is rather difficult to watch, but also very important I think:



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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:56 
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TheVision wrote:
Cras wrote:
markg wrote:
He's fucked now isn't he? Surely must be gone before the end of the year. Even all the joint chiefs have seemingly distanced themselves from him.


The thing is, there's no real mechanism short of impeachment, and until Mueller's done, there's probably nothing impeachable.

The only thing that gets him out is if republicans decide that he's going to get them annihilated in the midterms. Based on their current behaviour, they're not distancing themselves enough to show that they think that right now.


Much as I'd like to see Trump go, I too can't see it happening for a long time.


If they find enough dodgy activity to impeach him, the best hope is that he resigns. All they need to do is catch him in a lie regarding his knowledge of his teams involvement, that'd be enough to impeach him. If there's not enough to prove he acted illegally and the GOP do well in the mid-terms, he'll be acquitted by the Senate.

The 25th Ammendment stuff won't stick. He is exactly the man they voted in, complete with the racism.

He'll make it to the end of his first term. And I think his behaviour shows he believes he won't be removed from office. He's saying and doing things to intentionally provoke anyone who doesn't support him. His lies are blatant; his ignorance of anything to do with politics, especially outside of the US, are embarrassing.

I cannot stand him, he's abhorrent and I think the US will be in flames when he gets to the end of his first term. It's going to take years and years for them to come back from this. If he doesn't start a bloody world war before that.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 19:14 
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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 19:53 
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Puppet master has given up as well?

Holy fuck.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:24 
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There seem to be a worrying number of indications that this is a symbolic gesture. As in, he'll still wield enormous influence, just not in an 'official' capacity.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:07 
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DBSnappa wrote:
There seem to be a worrying number of indications that this is a symbolic gesture. As in, he'll still wield enormous influence, just not in an 'official' capacity.

Well yeah. I can't see Trump changing course at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:48 
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I realise I'm bandwagon jumping, but after the past week I've moved into the whole 'tear them down' camp when it comes to Confederate statues in US cities. Regimental markers and monuments on battlefields I'm less sure about, because they do serve an interpretative function for understanding the battle itself but the more modern ones should probably be toned down or removed if they don't assist that goal. I'm also not comfortable when it comes to cemeteries, because every community needs to grieve its dead in its own way, but again it needs to be commemorative not celebratory.

This Kevin Levin article helped push me over, especially this part:

Quote:
I imagined stepping back in time to convince the residents of Prague that the monuments helped them face their past, or gave teachers an important tool with which to engage their students. This proved to be a futile exercise. Regardless of their destination, the monuments were exactly where they needed to be as determined by the community members themselves.


As for Cecil Rhodes in Oxford, I'm still not convinced we'd be better off without him. Unless you know it's there it's very easy to miss, but more importantly I don't think Rhodes or what he represents is used as part of our current discussion about the tricky subject of race or racial relations. If people start trumpeting him as an example of how things should be, yes, the context would change, and in the meantime we should work to convince the University to be more circumspect about who it takes cash from (although the Russian Oligarch School of Government is a fantastic piece of modern architecture). But I could be converted.

The TL;DR is: I mostly agree with Myp.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:14 
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Further to discussion earlier in the thread about these statues being largely or part paid for from private money, and being cheap output of mass-production, this CNN article has hard data on when Confederate statues were erected. Clear spikes around 1910-1920, as Jim Crow was starting, and the 1950s, as the Civil Rights era was happening. Very few in the 40-ish years between Jim Crow and the Civil War. There's no way you can convince me these are about heritage. It's about finding any way possible to express latent racism. There's no cultural value at risk in removing them.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/16/us/co ... olitics=Tw


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:17 
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Also this is worrying
http://splinternews.com/charlottesville ... 1797988745

Bombastic headline but it makes a fairly strong case in the end.

Quote:
Everything that has happened in American life since the election of George W. Bush, the last point at which the generation currently entering its 30s was “up for grabs,” has only served to drive young people away from the Republican Party. At the absolute most, based on polling and election data, only about a third of adults under 30 are Republicans. According to Pew, nearly half of those young Republicans left their party at some point in 2016, with 23 percent of them changing their affiliation for good.

Meanwhile, everyone else in the broadly defined Millennial generation, and even many among the more-conservative Generation X, has become more liberal over the last decade. The Republicans have essentially lost a generation. (Republican pollster and author Kristen Soltis Andersen is my favorite authority on this subject, because she is watching her own movement refuse to grapple with these facts).

Despite that, the Republican Party will continue to field candidates and win elections for the foreseeable future. The two existent parties are entrenched in our electoral system—they effectively control ballot access at every level—so a Whig-style collapse seems out of the cards. The GOP, despite the aging and eventual die-off of its current base of support, will continue to win lots and lots of elections. So they’ll continue to need candidates.

Meanwhile, the only people entering the Republican Party candidate pipeline in the Trump era almost have to be allied with the alt-right, because the alt-right absolutely comprises the only effective and successful youth outreach strategy the GOP currently employs. The future leaders of the GOP aren’t the hooded Klan members or Nazi-tattooed thugs who presented the most cartoonish faces of hate in Charlottesville, but they are their clean-cut fellow marchers, and the many young right-wingers around the nation who sympathize with their cause.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:18 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:


That's a brilliant chart. Love stuff like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:27 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:


Indeed. And as the US parties tend to use primaries rather than smoke-filled rooms to find candidates, there will be a reinforcement effect as the only way to win over the far right base is to appeal to them.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:34 
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While I am dumping links I've really liked this week, this piece in the Atlantic with contemporaneous quotes from Confederate states makes it pretty clear that the war was about slavery.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... er/396482/


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:39 
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Quote:
On the eve of secession, Georgia Governor Joseph E. Brown concurred:
Quote:
Among us the poor white laborer is respected as an equal. His family is treated with kindness, consideration and respect. He does not belong to the menial class. The negro is in no sense of the term his equal. He feels and knows this. He belongs to the only true aristocracy, the race of white men. He black no masters boots, and bows the knee to no one save God alone. He receives higher wages for his labor than does the laborer of any other portion of the world, and he raises up his children with the knowledge, that they belong to no inferior cast, but that the highest members of the society in which he lives, will, if their conduct is good, respect and treat them as equals.

Difficult not to see parallels to the social forces that elected Trump there. Some of those poor white labourers still feel wronged when an African-American betters them.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:43 
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I always liked the line from General Sherman in 1864:

Quote:
Three years ago by a little reflection and patience they could have had a hundred years of peace and prosperity, but they preferred war; very well. Last year they could have saved their slaves, but now it is too late.

All the powers of earth cannot restore to them their slaves, any more than their dead grandfathers. Next year their lands will be taken, for in war we can take them, and rightfully, too, and in another year they may beg in vain for their lives


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:48 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
While I am dumping links I've really liked this week, this piece in the Atlantic with contemporaneous quotes from Confederate states makes it pretty clear that the war was about slavery.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... er/396482/


Some bedtime reading for you:

• Mcpherson, James, 'Battle Cry of Freedom'
The standard text on all aspects of the war.

• Dew, Charles. 'Apostles of Disunion'
Examines the activities and speeches of commissioners sent by the earliest seceding states to their neighbours in order to encourage further states to secede. Shorter than the others listed here, and an ideal place to start.

• Foner, Eric, 'The Firey Trial'
Excellent exploration of Lincoln's views on slavery and how he approached the issue throughout his time as president. Very useful for debunking many myths about him and his views on slavery, although for a fuller and more detailed account of his time as president taking in other issues, Doris Kearn Goodwin's 'Team of Rivals' is as good a place to start.

• Freehling, William, 'The Road to Disunion'
2 volumes - 'Secessionists at Bay' and 'Secessionists Triumphant'
Incredibly detailed social and political history of the southern US from the earliest days, gives an amazing flavour of life in the Southern states from the earliest times. The first chapter is a bit odd, but stick with it.

• Levine, Bruce, ‘The Fall of the House of Dixie’
Excellent social and political history of the south. Shorter and easier than the Freehling.

• Radio 3's series on the American Civil War from 2011 is also an excellent introduction, and I have the series on my computer if anyone wants a CD of them, or it can be found here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01063zt

• Radio 4’s America: Empire of Liberty gives an easily digestible account of US history and the centrality of slavery to the republic’s woes.

• Yale University have a whole series of lectures that can be downloaded for free:
http://oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-119

• The Civil War Trust have a selection of short articles on their website: http://www.civilwar.org/education/histo ... -overview/

I still think the Radio 3 series is one of the best programmes on the war of the slaveholders' rebellion I've come across. Ken Burns's one hasn't aged well.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:50 
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Whenever I hear someone say it was about 'states' rights', I ask which rights in particular were they worried the Republicans were going to infringe.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:50 
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Nice to hear, Kern. I respect you a lot, so that means something to me.

Cecil Rhodes we'll have to disagree on (for now :p)

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:35 
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Kern wrote:
Some bedtime reading for you:

how often do you imagine I go to bed


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:48 
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Kern wrote:
Whenever I hear someone say it was about 'states' rights', I ask which rights in particular were they worried the Republicans were going to infringe.

Sounds eerily like Brits and sovrentee

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:59 
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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 15:54 
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I mean, you only have to read the South Carolina Declaration to get it spelled out for you in bold type:

Quote:
We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.


Still, it was nice to see them outnumbered almost 1,000 to 1 in Boston yesterday…


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 16:19 
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The most common misunderstanding I've come across and often have to correct people on is that because the US didn't go to war in 1861 to free the slaves, but rather to save the Union, people immediately assume that means it wasn't about slavery, forgetting of course all the reasons for war made by the south (not to mention the whole of US history) and the fact that the seceding states started the war in the first place to preserve slavery.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 16:20 
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Joined: 12th Apr, 2008
Posts: 17749
Location: Oxford
Peter St. John wrote:
Still, it was nice to see them outnumbered almost 1,000 to 1 in Boston yesterday…


Yes!
And at the top of Boston Common is a memorial to the 54th Massachusetts, the black regiment featured in 'Glory'.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 16:28 
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Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
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Peter St. John wrote:
I mean, you only have to read the South Carolina Declaration to get it spelled out for you in bold type:

Quote:
We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.


Still, it was nice to see them outnumbered almost 1,000 to 1 in Boston yesterday…

They only stayed 30 mins and then went home. :D

Fairweather nazis

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