Be Excellent To Each Other

Well, I said better read, not more effective religion.

And oops! Sorry CUS!

If by the good bits you mean the moral teachings, fair enough, although moral teachings on their own don't equate to a religion. The problem, of course, is deciding whuch bits are good and which are dreadful - there are plenty of people who think that old testemant "justice" is a good thing.

To clarify, I have no problem with a person being religious. I DO have a problem if they use said religion as an excuse to act in a certain way that they expect others shouldn't, and I also have a problem if they use said religion to avoid thinking for themselves.

Last time I looked at them, a while ago now, there were all manner of edited, expanded, compressed, and rewritten bibles about - have you looked if there are any like the one you want?

This is mostly the modern Christian approach - that the old testement contains both moral (do not kill) and ceremonial (stone women) laws.
When Jesus turned up in the sequel and was crucified, he somehow 'fulfilled' all the ceremonial rules, so now we're allowed to ignore those. Of course, which bits are ceremonial and which bits are moral is up for debate.

The gay-bashing was all Jesus though. No easy way to dodge that one.

A lot of sexism in Paul's letters as well. Modern christianity seems to take "Do unto others..." and "Turn the other cheek" as the whole of the moral teaching, and ignore the rest, the bits they don't like. When they're not claiming that God speaks directly to them, telling them to invade heathen countries, that is.

Continuing in my previous logic-masquerading-as-facetious-rudeness bent: when times are tough, and you're at your lowest ebb, you might turn to The Lord and find comfort in His words. Don't. You're just having a breakdown. We have studies and medicine and professionals for this sort of thing now. Or, if you do decide to Find Religion, just know that I'll treat you with the same suspicion and disbelief with which I would treat e.g. a crack addict, who finds that life isn't so tough now that he has pipe to suck on. You're still suckling at a metaphorical teat, to drown your pain.

Very different from being raised in a religious family, and deciding you wish to take those views as your own, I might add.


Now to be fair, that does only apply to a small percentile of people. Let us not point the finger necessarily at religion, when alcoholism, nepotism and apparent mild retardation all have their part to play.

And yet I haven't met anyone who believes either of these things to be true. This after being sent to a Catholic school. I'm not saying that fundamentalism doesn't exist but it seems a very long way from what I've ever seen of Christianity, from a very young age I thought it all utter nonsense but I was never actually taught anything that resembled hatred or intolerance.

Saying that it is irrational to pick and choose the bits you like from the bible may be true but if you're going to point out things about religion that don't make sense then a bit of editing here and there is nothing. In any case we all pick and choose and compromise our own beliefs, all the time, it's necessary to get through life.

I don't know what you mean there Duds.

So don't pick the bits you like, dump the bits that are too hard, and then try to claim the bible means anything then.

If you edit a book that's supposed to be divine word in any way, you invalidate every single thing in it. You can't say...ooh, "Jesus died for our sins because it's true the bible says so" and then say "Oh that bit about killing the gays? Oh I don't like that bit".

It's not "nothing", it's the one single most important reasons why modern religion is hypocritical worthless nonsense. Sign up to it properly or stop pretending to be religious.

Incidentally, when you get to "heaven". If I were a god I'd be a hell of a lot more pissed off at the guy who thought he knew better than me than the guy that simply wasn't convinced by the whole thing. And as we have already established, if he does exist, he IS a cunt.

I just wanted to add a thought to this before I got any further:

Of course, none of the bible is actually the divine word of God is it? Even believing it wasn't written by a chap having a laugh and that it's genuine, it's written by mortals. God wrote not a single word thereof.

Which makes it easier to write bits out of it for your own religious beliefs (after all, Leviticus was just a bloke, with funny views. It's not God telling you to do it!), but at the same time makes it even dafter to hold it up as any sort of "gospel" truth (after all, it's just written by a bunch of blokes who claim to have experienced the religious equivalent to being abducted by aliens).

Exactly, and most chrisitans in any power I've encountered will use it as the final answer to any debate, amusingly including once the rationale that the bible was the divine word of god, because the bible said it was.

If it's not then yes, you can blot out what you like, but as mentioned you've just lots the ability to use it as final solution or indeed unless you can come up with a damn good reason why you dropped any single bit, pretty much lost the ability to even use it as a supporting text.

If there's one thing worse than people banging on about their religion and how you should follow it if you don't want to be a hell-bound heathen, it's atheists belittling people for having faith.

I dunno about worse, but it can be with equally blind zealotry, potentially.

The alpha course (http://uk.alpha.org) which is massively popular with the kids tends to ignore homosexuality unless you ask, in which case it turns out they think it's evil and a sin. Obviously in the modern touchy-feely way of 'hate the sin, love the sinner'. I should dig up the recording of my appearence arguing with one of the alpha high-ups on christian radio at some point...

But far worse than that, it's the argument that being any type of atheist* is in fact a faith in itself so therefore you are a religious believer as well NAH NAH NAH I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU.

*I subscribe most closely to the Apathetic agnosticism and/or Ignosticism branch of things if I can be bothered to think about it at all.

Querying people's justifications is belittling, is it?

Don't jump down his throat, his was a perfectly valid point.

<puts mod hat on>
Hello, chums! I think some of you might be surprised at the amount of Christians that visit the board, and I think it's safe to say we've got a few others from other religions, too.
Debate is, of course, encouraged, but let's think carefully before we blanket-insult an entire faith.
Cheers.
</hat off, goes home>

There is a book that I don't like much (because I find it condescending and sneering in places), which some of you may have read, called 'The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins. I read it (I lie, I listened to it as an audiobook because I was painting and making jewellery at the time) over the past week or so. A lot of what he says makes total sense to me, and some of it is just opinionated garbage. One point he does raise, though, is that religion is awarded a special place in modern, Western society. People are scared to pull people up on their religious beliefs, often no matter how absurd they may seem to an atheist mind like my own. If someone supported a non-religious organisation and announced that yes, they truly believed that the Monster Raving Loonie party was the one that they wanted to run the country, people would be well within their rights to say that (s)he was a bit potty. That some people think that there is a being, or collection of three entities, that created this earth that I live on and that will judge my deeds and send me off to lasting paradise or the devil's sauna is, to me, absurd, but that's just my opinion and I do not mind someone of a religious nature wholeheartedly disagreeing with me.

I do not understand why religion is awarded some special protection by people not wanting to offend. Religions are only a belief, like any other, yet it's something that many people are a bit edgy about critcising, despite the fact that I personally think there is a lot to criticise in most religions. If I told you all that I thought that the creator of the universe lived inside my bottle of mouthwash - nowhere else but in that bottle, and that I let him out on special occasions to grant people wishes, you'd think I was joking. If I asserted that I truly thought this you'd think I was mad and I wouldn't blame you for saying that I was a fool to believe such things. If you were to say that someone was a fool for believing in the Judaic/Islamic/Christian God, though, then many would say that I was being offensive.

I wouldn't go out of my way to upset someone because I disagreed with their religious beliefs, but I wouldn't tread on eggshells to protect them either. If someone is so sure that there is a God figure out there and I say that it is nowt but fairytales the they have the right to either ignore me and carry on with their belief in quiet happiness, or try and convince me of where I am wrong, but I don't think that anyone should ever feel silenced from saying what they feel on the subject of religion.

I do not think that religion is a bad thing - for individuals I think that it can often be a rewarding and enriching part of their lives, but as an organised system of indoctrination I dislike many religions very much. If I happened to be born in Pakistan then I would most likely be born and raised a Muslim. If i was born in America I would have a great chance of being born a Christian. Does God play a lottery with where you are born? If Islam is actually the way to go then sorry guys, but most of us had better book a holiday to Barbados, because we are going to have to get used to living somewhere very hot.

I was bought up in a lax Christian household, but my nan couldn't be arsed walking the four miles to church on Sundays, so we never went, apart from when I waned to join a choir and that was the only one available. My nan still believes in the Christening of children (something which really bothers me when done by people that don't step foot in a church bar for weddings, deaths and Christenings, and then, usually, only of their own child) and such things as that. Actually, I decided it was nonsense when I was about 7, but I was too scared to say, but I am not now.

Very well put Meems!

Where does nihilism fit into this? I think I'm that. I don't particularly want to be, but it seems it's that or... Teletubbies.

Have you considered National Socialism? At least it's an ethos
Dude.

Lisa wanted to have Chloe Christened, but when I asked why all she couldn't really answer me, it was just the done thing to her, so we discussed it (her child, her wishes etc...). When her mum asked why she wasn't getting Chloe Christened and Lisa explained (I don't think she had even thought about it as being religious before), her mum said that it was just done as a god excuse for a party/piss up.

My sister had my nephew Christened so that people would buy him (more) presents. I can't believe that people are willing to swear a child into a religion that they themselves don't even believe in for an excuse to knock back a few glasses Gallio brothers and to be given another three Humphrey's House photo albums.

Well, in the general sense, yes. But it appeared to be applied in the specific in response to some valid, pleasantly put, non-belittling points.



By strange coincidence, I'm watching this right now.

That rug really did tie the room together.

It's the greatest film yet made! I am the walrus.


I'm not Christian, but I was half-arsedly raised Christian (C.O.E. obv.) and I was wincing a bit, at a couple of comments. Not out of personal belief, but just from seeing this conversation going down before, heh.

Awesome, awesome post Mimi.

I totally agree that petulant arrogant atheists are annoying.

I've just watched dispatches. Oh bloody hell thats terrible. And in the UK too.

Well, I was a devout Catholic, and am now lapsed, and wasn't wincing. So hey.

And there's more than just "religious"/"atheist". The assumption that because someone has some issues with organised religion they're atheist is a bit off, really. I for one didn't become atheist, and still believe in a god (probably a Christian one, too), but have some difficulties with religion.

And hey, man, no one fucks with the Jesus.

Mimi - I was thinking of posting something along those lines, but you phrased it much better than I ever could, so I'll just second it. Thanks!

Zio - I was not intending to belittle anyone or anything. In fact, it's the very vastness of religion that, to me, makes questioning it vital. Also, I don't consider myself an atheist, and I think there's a wide and interesting grey area between religious and atheist.

Yeah just watched that too, rather disturbing stuff, especially when you consider that we seem doomed to follow the US in so many ways.

That'll be the pages of the dictionary turning really fast, like a blur.

What was Dispatches about?

Perhaps I should have added *levels of interest not guaranteed.

The rise of the fundamentalist Christian movement and in particular their growing influence in parliament.

Self whoring mini-review/excuse to post a funny youtube video HERE!

Apart from Mary Magdalen.

Oh, yeah.

Was that intentional?

No.

But amusing now you've pointed it out to me.

I was christened, and raised in a C of E school, and I've always used it to take away one important point in life; something which towers above any and all of the Christian teachings.

"Lord of the Dance" is excellent to sing at the top of your voice.

I never have to go to another assembly, nor sing another hymn ever again. Not being 7 is bostin.

Don't worry dude, I wasn't actually referring to you - I think you've made some good points. But there is a definite tendency with some to seem to suggest that the religious are crackpots for believing in a diety. That whole attitude of "God clearly does not exist, and you are clearly mental for thinking otherwise" is just a shit, smug attitude to have.

For my money, I wasn't brought up a Christian but became one of my own accord when I was about 8 or 9 years old. Then in my teens, whilst studying world religion at school it dawned on me (and this was one of Mimi's points earlier), that really the only reason I was Christian was because I was born a white man in England. Had I been born in Pakistan, or Morocco or somewhere like that, I'd almost certainly be Muslim. India, either Hindu or Sikh. And so on.

All the years later and I feel quite settled with my beliefs, which is to say that to all intents and purposes I'm agnostic. I do believe there is a God, but I couldn't say for sure what he/she/it is or what their purpose is. I tend to think of God as more the designer of the physical laws of our universe, than a diety with direct influence on world events. For whatever reason, I find this more comforting, not to mention more believable, than the idea that there really is nothing and that we're all here purely because. Seems a bit pointless like that.

You may of course all think that I'm insane, and you may well be right.

Questioned it? Yes. Doubted it, no. There have always been valid answers to my questions. In order to understand it, you've really got to come at it from an entirely different angle than most non-religious people choose to, and there in lies the problem.

I can state, as a 100% fact, that my life has been made unfathomly better by converting to Christianity, mind.

Religion is the perfect example of something which doesn't scale. On the individual level it works brilliant, making peoples lives better. But when it's a large scale power it is almost certainly a force for global evil.

Which is annoying because everything good that comes from religion doesn't need global organisations that lead to fighting, war and persecution. Even really temperate stuff like the Anglican church is completely fucking itself up because some people living in the one part of the world slightly disagree with some other people in an other part of the world.

Thats the only thing that bothers me - when people can't see you criticising the larger organisations rather than the little people.

It's akin to criticising Green Peace and having people think you don't believe in global warming.

You're so right! I haven't thought of heard that song in many, many years.

Also 'Cross Over The Road My Friend / Have The Strength The Lord To Lend (or SOMETHING)' is quite fun to just belt out, as is this, my absolute favourite:
Autumn days, when the grass is dew'ed
And the silk is in the chestnut shell*
Jet planes meeting in the air to be refuelled
All these things I love so well
So I MUSTN'T FOOOORRRGEEEEEEET!
No, I MUSN'T FOOOOORRRGEEEET!
To say a GREAT! BIG! thank you
I mustn't forget

I have no problems with those lyrics. Now, as, then, I've always thought it's just saying "Isn't stuff great? Oh! Be nice to people - P's and Q's!". Nothing to do with God and going to hell. It's about pretty leaves, and other such life-affirming things.

* Never actually understood this line

I think you get a sort of fluff inside chestnut shells when you take them apart. It's not really silky though.


I agree with Lave above - the people in our local church are great, they hold fetes, visit sick people, raise money for charity, feed the homeless, provide comfort, company and so on for elderly or lonely people and buy school shoes for poor kids. We give them our jumble for their sales and we buy cakes and pot plants from their stalls, and everyone benefits. However, a lot of the stuff the church gets in the paper for is bishops talking about politics.

Religion doesn't mix well with politics at all. History has proved this time and again, and no doubt will continue to do so.

Not it doesn't and that's my biggest worry about where we seem to be headed. It seems that only someone who claims to believe in god could ever president of America whereas over here it's always been perfectly fine to keep your faith or lack of it as a private matter. Which is odd since constitutionally the situation is almost the exact opposite of that.

When it comes to governance of things that fall within the sphere of 'morality' though, religion cannot help but mix with politics. Look at things like abortion and gay marriage.

I am the Lord of the Dance Settee!

[/TMWRNJ]

Hmmm. The problem is, of course, that that's the only aspect of politics that you get religious figures shouting from the rooftops about. The religious establishment is obsessed with what goes on in people's bedrooms and the human reproductive system. Seemingly to the exclusion of all else.

Any time you get some religious talking head on the radio or the tellybox it's to denounce something to do with stem cell research and embryos; abortion; gay marriage, or gays in the clergy or just gays in general; children having any education at all as to what they need to know to have safe sex lives; the immunisation of girls against HPV because it encourages them to be slags etc etc etc ad chuffing nauseam.

Rather than, say, emulating the most excellent but sadly singular Dr Sentamu, Archbishop of York, cutting up his dog collar on AM to protest against Mugabe, or protesting and lobbying the Government about poverty or the unequal treatment of women in the workplace (ha) or the abominably bad treatment of families with disabled children, etc etc etc.

But no. That won't get the column inches, will it Cardinal O'Connor?

This is why people think the religionists should keep out of politics - because to the general populace, it seems like they're trying to impose their idea of morality on the majority in relation to fairly private matters. And on top of that the religionists are taking positions on these subjects that most people would find themselves on the wrong side of - and most people don't take kindly to basically being called hell-bound immoral heathens for diagreeing with the religionists' views.

And sadly this does lead to the non-religious, or those not bothered about religion, or the sort-of-Christian-but-not-really, to view the members of these establishment figures' religions in the same light as the talking heads.

Although non of this fixes that the religion, individual or organised, wants them to hate gay people amongst other crimes.

Unless of course by religion is a good thing you simply mean people vaguely believing in something deity like rather than any specific one.

/edit with hindsight, not a good idea.