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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 18:15 
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Lord Humongous

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They're showboating.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 18:38 
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Paws for thought

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Them relying on what was created to be an undetectable nerve agent actually being undetectable?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 18:55 
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markg wrote:
What I can't get my head around is there's lots of ways to kill people so if Russia wanted to do this and then deny it why use a nerve agent that supposedly can be traced right back to them?


There’s the potential that Putin is less in control of some of the more volatile elements of his empire than he claims to be.

That or he’s seeing what he can get away with.

Or it’s a false flag!

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 19:40 
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It's a warning to others. Chemical weapons and posions could be anywhere, so anyone Mr Putin doesn't like could be hit at any time.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 20:01 
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I had heard that it may have been done as there’s an election coming up and he’s worried a poor turnout at his corrupt election which he will win, will look bad in the eyes of the world. Ergo, fomenting western Russian bashing has in the past riled the plebiscite enough to turn out in bigger numbers.

That, and he doesn’t give a fuck, as there’s little we can do to harm him in the short term.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 23:10 
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markg wrote:
What I can't get my head around is there's lots of ways to kill people so if Russia wanted to do this and then deny it why use a nerve agent that supposedly can be traced right back to them?


They could have just killed him and disposed of the body, then it would have been some 15-minute conspiracy theory on local TV.

Could be Putin flexing his muscles prior to the election, but he is supposed to have 65% of the vote according to polls, and they are always 100% right :)

For sure somebody is not concerned that this points back to Russia.

Still, we have shown them now, we kicked out 23 fake diplomats who are spies that we already knew about, you wonder why we didn't do this before now.

Also, Prince William and Harry and large numbers of government people will not be getting a taxpayer-funded World Cup holiday now.

Finally freezing Russian state assets where there is evidence they may be used to threaten the life or property of UK nationals or residents, so at least nobody is going to be killed by a big house in central London or a Faberge Egg which is a huge relief.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:38 
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Gogmagog

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Analytica:

Are we annoyed that people did surveys for money in return for access to profiles, people's public profiles were collected by a company, the company makes bold claims about what it can do with this data or Trump?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:42 
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If you do the survey, that's fine. It's just that in so doing, the company sucked up all your friends' data too.

As with all forms of data analysis, I find what's possible in equal parts deeply fascinating and deeply sinister.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:45 
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Gogmagog

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Kern wrote:
If you do the survey, that's fine. It's just that in so doing, the company sucked up all your friends' data too.


Wasn't it just the public proflies? If it was, then a researcher could have done it by hand.

Quote:
As with all forms of data analysis, I find what's possible in equal parts deeply fascinating and deeply sinister.


Yes, I agree. Your card was 9 hearts, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:56 
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Gogmagog

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MaliA wrote:
MaliA wrote:
MaliA wrote:
MaliA wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Remember this sign from a while back? No?
Well, to refresh:

Parking behind the CoOp was 20 mins free. Then signs and ANPR appeared, and you had to type car reg in to get 20 free minutes. Many didn't, and were fined as per T&Cs.

Anyhoo, I dropped a note to local counciller and local MP over the signs not being terribly clear. Counciller responded and he had passed it over to MP. So, MP raises the issue in Parliament, and sends me half a dozen letters with copies of his correspondance with the council solicitors, parking ombudsman and other people.

Today, in the local paper reports:
Quote:
THE operator of a controversial car park has been ordered to shut it down and refund thousands of pounds in fines slapped on unsuspecting motorists.

Bradford Council took the dramatic step after receiving a host of complaints about the way private car park company Smart Parking was running the site at Oastler Road, Saltaire.

The authority was able to step in after discovering that the patch of land had never legally been turned into a car park and was still part of the public highway.

But in doing so, the Council has also had to hold its hands up to running the car park illegally itself for more than a decade, and now faces a major refund programme of its own.


http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/n ... ial_fines/

Which is amazing. And has amused me.

So, I think P Davies will do OK in an election, again, as he's shown himself to be looking after community interests, especially as the council is a Labour run one and fingers can be pointed.

EXCITING CAR PARK UPDATE


http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/n ... _launched/



Quote:
Cllr Alex Ross-Shaw, the Council’s executive member for regeneration, planning and transport, said: “We have started negotiations with the company, Saltaire Investments, and we are helping them to clarify the highway status of the land.

“As the car park is still operating illegally, we have also served a notice on the company to remove the car parking equipment from the site.


Not sure if I'm meant to type car reg in anymore or not, but it looks like a proper car park still.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/n ... _car_park/

Further plot twist!

Quote:
THE operators of a controversial car park which was ordered to shut down appear to be fighting back.

Private car park company Smart Parking has drawn anger from motorists over the way it has been handing out fines at Oastler Road car park in Saltaire.

The furore prompted Bradford Council to declare the site unlawful and serve a notice ordering the car park to close by November 24.

But in an apparent act of defiance against this notice, the company has now lodged a retrospective planning application for its parking signs, in a move one councillor branded “hilarious”.


Amazing.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/N ... _car_park/

Further developments in the Oastler Road Car Park fiasco


Planning permission has been applied for to turn the road into a car park. There are objections. WHERE WILL IT ALL END?


REJECTED! THIS IS A ROLLERCOASTER

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:57 
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STOP THE QUOTE WALLS DAMMIT


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:58 
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Gogmagog

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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
STOP THE QUOTE WALLS DAMMIT

OK

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:59 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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MaliA wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
STOP THE QUOTE WALLS DAMMIT

OK

I'M GLAD THAT'S AGREED.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:10 
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MaliA wrote:
If it was, then a researcher could have done it by hand.


Agree. Parties and political organisations have been using and collating data for targeting voters for years. Just a computer is faster than going up and down tower blocks knocking on doors and matching that against turnout rolls, census data, etc. It's the combination of that with the use of narrowly targeted campaigns and extensive testing of different messages to get reactions that's the scary part. I don't think people realise how much stuff is out there.

I get your point about the Trump campaign and how it might be feeding into the outcry. It feeds into the 'stupid people voting stupidly' narrative: we ought to remember that clever people can also be as easily fooled, just in different ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:21 
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Surprised that only the US election and not Brexit is being mentioned in all of this.
This all came out 10 months ago - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... -democracy


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:29 
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Kern wrote:
Agree. Parties and political organisations have been using and collating data for targeting voters for years. Just a computer is faster than going up and down tower blocks knocking on doors and matching that against turnout rolls, census data, etc. It's the combination of that with the use of narrowly targeted campaigns and extensive testing of different messages to get reactions that's the scary part. I don't think people realise how much stuff is out there.

Strongly disagree. The scale that ML can work at is transformative; a quantitative difference becomes a qualitative one. Consider facial identification and gait recognition hooked up to all of London's CCTV cameras, say. With only humans watching the cameras, you cannot build a panopticon. With computers watching them, you can, because computers scale almost infinitely.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:42 
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Not sure we're actually disagreeing on this. Parties have always used data for mobilisation, organisation, and voting purposes. This is taking it to new heights, and saves getting cold in graveyards.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:48 
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Gogmagog

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Kern wrote:
Not sure we're actually disagreeing on this. Parties have always used data for mobilisation, organisation, and voting purposes. This is taking it to new heights, and saves getting cold in graveyards.


I agree with this.

Moving back to Trump, I don't think there was a kerfuffle with Obama campaign.
https://ischool.syr.edu/infospace/2013/ ... 2-victory/

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/5090 ... ly-voters/

It is an arms race, and there are questions of its efficacy. To not use it as a tool, though, would be an error.

I think it is easier to blame the a brexit referendum on this, than grasping the nettle that was complacency in some in the Remain campaign, but I am not inclined to labour that point.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:58 
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MaliA wrote:
Kern wrote:
Not sure we're actually disagreeing on this. Parties have always used data for mobilisation, organisation, and voting purposes. This is taking it to new heights, and saves getting cold in graveyards.

I agree with this. I don't think there was a kerfuffle with Obama campaign.
The Obama campaign app was exactly that -- a campaign app. No-one was surprised it gathered your data to use on a political campaign. The CA data came from an app run by a Cambridge University professor that purported to be for psychological research. In addition, the Obama app didn't store any data from your friends' profiles, or use it for anything other than a "send a friend a message" feature. Whereas the CA data sucked up everything it could and exfiltrated it all. These are very different things.

Wikipedia borrows the definition of "data breach" from the US DHHS as "A data breach is a security incident in which sensitive, protected or confidential data is copied, transmitted, viewed, stolen or used by an individual unauthorized to do so." That makes the data that CA worked with a breach, whereas the Obama campaign app was not.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:05 
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Kern wrote:
This is taking it to new heights

It really isn't. Online research companies have been buying or mining Facebook data for years and years. There are two people doing it full time where I used to work.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:15 
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Gogmagog

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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Kern wrote:
Not sure we're actually disagreeing on this. Parties have always used data for mobilisation, organisation, and voting purposes. This is taking it to new heights, and saves getting cold in graveyards.

I agree with this. I don't think there was a kerfuffle with Obama campaign.
The Obama campaign app was exactly that -- a campaign app. No-one was surprised it gathered your data to use on a political campaign. The CA data came from an app run by a Cambridge University professor that purported to be for psychological research. In addition, the Obama app didn't store any data from your friends' profiles, or use it for anything other than a "send a friend a message" feature. Whereas the CA data sucked up everything it could and exfiltrated it all. These are very different things.

Wikipedia borrows the definition of "data breach" from the US DHHS as "A data breach is a security incident in which sensitive, protected or confidential data is copied, transmitted, viewed, stolen or used by an individual unauthorized to do so." That makes the data that CA worked with a breach, whereas the Obama campaign app was not.


Pleae correct me of i am 7nderstandi g tbis wrong:

How the data was obtained is the issue. The survey takers agree to it through the T&Cs and their friends who had publicly accessible profiles had those scraped for information which someone with pen and paper could (labouriously) do.

That data then went elsewhere which is the issue.

If getting all the data and exporting it was fine, dandy and above boardthen there is no issue with what was done with it subsequently.

The issue is CA could use that data within Facebook, but the moment it was used outside of Facebook it broke the agreement with Facebook.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:19 
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Away from the data angle, the reps in the C4 videos were also talking about a lot more nefarious schemes to manipulate electorates such as entrapment, and they generally came across as jerks. They deny this.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:21 
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Gogmagog

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Kern wrote:
Away from the data angle, the reps in the C4 videos were also talking about a lot more nefarious schemes to manipulate electorates such as entrapment, and they generally came across as jerks. They deny this.

I view that through this prism:
Quote:
"We like to talk big... vampires do. "I'm going to destroy the world." That's just tough-guy talk. Strutting around with your friends over a pint of blood. The truth is, I _like_ this world. You've got...dog racing, Manchester united. And you've got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here. But then someone comes along with a vision. With a real... passion for destruction. Angel could pull it off. Good-bye, Picadilly. Farewell, Leicester-bloody-Square."

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:43 
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MaliA wrote:
How the data was obtained is the issue. The survey takers agree to it through the T&Cs and their friends who had publicly accessible profiles had those scraped for information which someone with pen and paper could (labouriously) do.
No. Some or perhaps most of the scraped data in the friends' profiles would have been only viewable to friends and not publicly, so you couldn't gather it up like this without being friends with everyone on Facebook first.

I also continue to reject the idea that this is something "someone with pen and paper could do" and therefore not a new thing. Consider Google Photos. I can search my 30k+ photos for the word "trees" and get back my pictures of trees. In theory, without machine learning, I could have paid a room full of flunkies to do that, but there aren't enough flunkies in the world for everyone to do this. So when Google Photos launched, was this a new product the world had never seen before? I think it was. Similarly, the way CA analysed data at scale is fundamentally a different thing to how traditional human-powered campaign modelled had to operate.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 13:00 
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Gogmagog

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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
No. Some or perhaps most of the scraped data in the friends' profiles would have been only viewable to friends and not publicly, so you couldn't gather it up like this without being friends with everyone on Facebook first.


Ah. Right. Got it. Yeah, I can see why there is annoyance at this. I consider that a step too far

Quote:
I also continue to reject the idea that this is something "someone with pen and paper could do" and therefore not a new thing. Consider Google Photos. I can search my 30k+ photos for the word "trees" and get back my pictures of trees. In theory, without machine learning, I could have paid a room full of flunkies to do that, but there aren't enough flunkies in the world for everyone to do this.


Oh, i quite agree in the implementation issues. It is possible for me to, I dunno, go to the Moon and back, but not at all probable.

Quote:
So when Google Photos launched, was this a new product the world had never seen before? I think it was. Similarly, the way CA analysed data at scale is fundamentally a different thing to how traditional human-powered campaign modelled had to operate.
[/quote]

Yeah, it is a step change. I'm considering it, for this discussion, as a magic box, where the ends are targeted adverts, points to mention and whatever it chucks out as a Good Idea To Be More Popular. The idea behind it is the same, whether a machine does it, or party members . I'm faiy chill with this as it is a bit of an arms race and so on and more resources help in things.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 13:50 
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Kern wrote:
Away from the data angle, the reps in the C4 videos were also talking about a lot more nefarious schemes to manipulate electorates such as entrapment, and they generally came across as jerks. They deny this.

A C4 article on the matter quotes nix as saying they were sending magical emails that deleted themselves off people's computers after 2 weeks. I'm not sure they know enough about technology to be journalisting this.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 13:52 
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BikNorton wrote:
I'm not sure they know enough about technology to be journalisting this.


D) Strongly Agree

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:10 
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of course he fucking would

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:25 
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So was the guy a nazi or someone just taking the piss out of nazis and making a daft joke? If it's the latter then I'm with Gervais and Davies on this particular issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:27 
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markg wrote:
So was the guy a nazi or someone just taking the piss out of nazis and making a daft joke? If it's the latter then I'm with Gervais and Davies on this particular issue.


As far as I can tell he’s both, and using the ‘but I was just making a joke’ defence to jusify shouting ‘gas the jews’ a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:56 
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Curiosity wrote:
markg wrote:
So was the guy a nazi or someone just taking the piss out of nazis and making a daft joke? If it's the latter then I'm with Gervais and Davies on this particular issue.


As far as I can tell he’s both, and using the ‘but I was just making a joke’ defence to jusify shouting ‘gas the jews’ a lot.

I'd give the guy the benefit of the doubt there - not least as he explained in the video what he was doing and that he didn't fancy Nazis. And let's be fair, a dog doing a Hitler salute is a little bit funny. It would be funnier and more on point if it were a cat, of course, as they are actual living Nazis.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:08 
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MaliA wrote:


Quote:
A self-described "professional s*** poster" and free speech advocate, Meecham said the video had been taken out of context.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:14 
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Yeah, I'm always saying "Heil Hitler" and "Gas the Jews" in a context that's entirely removed from being a fucking Nazi.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 13:43 
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In other reassuring news, everyone's favourite tangerine has made bomb-happy John Bolton the USA's National Security Adviser. Sleep well, folks.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 14:23 
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Good slapdown of Boris by the Speaker today, as Boris was being a dick and referring to Emily Thornberry in terms of who her husband is.

No I can’t be arsed to find a link.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 14:27 
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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 14:30 
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Curiosity wrote:
Good slapdown of Boris by the Speaker today, as Boris was being a dick and referring to Emily Thornberry in terms of who her husband is.

No I can’t be arsed to find a link.


I just watched that too. Rather pleasing

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:42 
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Corbyn's Labour manifesto is genius, says former critic

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On the third Sunday after Snowball's expulsion, the animals were somewhat surprised to hear Napoleon announce that the windmill was to be built after all. He did not give any reason for having changed his mind, but merely warned the animals that this extra task would mean very hard work, it might even be necessary to reduce their rations. The plans, however, had all been prepared, down to the last detail. A special committee of pigs had been at work upon them for the past three weeks. The building of the windmill, with various other improvements, was expected to take two years.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:49 
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:DD

I suppose if you want to be a Labour candidate these days you have to get with his friends. Faking it is easy.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:18 
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... isbury-spy

Bastard!

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 13:01 
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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 13:11 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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Location: West Yorkshire
Speaking of which, the WW2 in real time twitter reached Katyn and I'm.still trying to get my head around the sheer coldness of the operation.

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Mr Chris wrote:
MaliA isn't just the best thing on the internet - he's the best thing ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 13:23 
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Everybodys gilf

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I love that account

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:22 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 43969
Location: West Yorkshire
Gardiner is pretty much why I dislike Labour so much.

Quote:
Barry Gardiner, the shadow trade secretary, has described the Good Friday agreement as a shibboleth that was being “played up” in the Brexit negotiations for economic rather than political reasons.

Answering questions at a thinktank session in Brussels last month, Gardiner suggested there was no reason to fear that a border with customs controls would lead to a return of paramilitary activity.


https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... ssion=true

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:33 
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Joined: 12th Apr, 2008
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Actually quite stunned by these remarks.

One of Labour's finest achievements in office (even after we've considered the role of John Major for his work beforehand), and he wants to throw it under a bus because of a need for Brexit at all costs? Gah.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:00 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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Location: West Yorkshire
Kern wrote:
Actually quite stunned by these remarks.

One of Labour's finest achievements in office (even after we've considered the role of John Major for his work beforehand), and he wants to throw it under a bus because of a need for Brexit at all costs? Gah.


I think it's showing, once more, the amateurism of the shadow front bench (MaliA - passim). I don't think they realise at times that they aren't little known back benches anymore and should really think rather than play to their mob of worshippers.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:31 
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Labour announces plan for under 25s to have free bus travel (Guardian)

Putting aside the funding question (the old people's card is a substantial cost to local authorities, so this isn't going to help) but the main issue is lack of services in rural areas.
I've never understood why outside of the largest cities regional transport boards aren't a thing. Set them up, let them award franchises to public or private contractors covering routes in an area, and sweeten them with some profitable lines alongside services that are needed but won't ever make money. If Labour plan something like this, that'd be a really good change for the good.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:02 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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Location: West Yorkshire
Kern wrote:
Labour announces plan for under 25s to have free bus travel (Guardian)

Putting aside the funding question (the old people's card is a substantial cost to local authorities, so this isn't going to help) but the main issue is lack of services in rural areas.
I've never understood why outside of the largest cities regional transport boards aren't a thing. Set them up, let them award franchises to public or private contractors covering routes in an area, and sweeten them with some profitable lines alongside services that are needed but won't ever make money. If Labour plan something like this, that'd be a really good change for the good.


"The youth hate us because of our stance on Brexit, and the running over a cat reporting thing wasn't the hit we hoped for."
"Quick! Bus passes for all!"

I read the plan is to pay for it through road tax.

I think.your views in transport are spot on.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:06 
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Knew those years playing 'Transport Tycoon' wouldn't go to waste.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:14 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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Location: West Yorkshire
Kern wrote:
Knew those years playing 'Transport Tycoon' wouldn't go to waste.


This was my first thought, too.

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