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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:58 
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Kern, in May 2015 wrote:
Necessity
Yes, long overdue. Should have had one over Lisbon, frankly. For too long the EU has been an elitist project, and the public tend to be excluded and alienated from the communnity. I think the public are smart enough to decide on whether they are happy with the set-up or if we should bid a fond adieu.


I still agree with most of this. The whole EU question had been pushed away for far too long and we should have been debating and discussing our role in the world and the organisation for years. I just wasn't expecting the campaign to be so dire. Serves me right for choosing to suppress memories of the AV vote.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:05 
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Commander-in-Cheese

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Squirt wrote:
I'm a long way from being an expert here, but I really don't see how any deal on the Irish border can simultaneously be acceptable to the Republic, the press / Hard Brexitish MPs, and the DUP. Someone is going get pissed off, which will either mean talks stalling, or there being a pretty good chance of the government collapsing.


It does seem to be an entirely unfixable problem. No customs union means a hard border, and Irish/Norn Irish politics can't accept a hard border.

And the government seem to be trying to ignore it.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:08 
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Cras wrote:
It does seem to be an entirely unfixable problem. No customs union means a hard border, and Irish/Norn Irish politics can't accept a hard border.

And the government seem to be trying to ignore it.


It does show up how little most people in Britain, including those in government, think about that part of the Union. I think post-Good Friday most people saw the problem as 'solved' and went back to not really caring about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:09 
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Very good, but depressing, blog post I read over the weekend on how the Brexit position on the NI border is a fact-free quagmire: http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.co. ... h.html?m=1


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:10 
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Commander-in-Cheese

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I have people who work for me who commute over the border. They are understandably concerned.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:12 
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Hah! Amazingly pithy. Hard to refute though.

https://twitter.com/leighblue/status/937621794969747456


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:26 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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This is the first real time the UK is actually going to have to come up with a concrete position, with all the technical details ready.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:31 
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European editor for RTE, the Irish national broadcaster (and presumably trustworthy):
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status ... 5467986944



Quote:
BREAKING: UK will concede that there will be no "regulatory divergence" on the island of Ireland on the single market and customs union, acc to a draft text seen by @rtenews

So a hard border between NI and the rUK, if true. Good luck getting the DUP to swallow that.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:33 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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Huh, a customs border between two parts of the same country is a bit special. I wonder if that's happened before?


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:36 
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Comfortably Dumb

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With this whole mess, I really thought I'd see more comments from people who voted for Brexit who have since their minds, based on what they've seen following the referendum. However, I guess those who weren't paying attention at the time, still aren't paying attention, and still think everything is going to be wonderful. I've still yet to see one positive reason to leave.

At some point, I'll end up asking my boss if he would still vote leave, given a second chance, but I suspect I'll be disappointed by his answer. He voted leave as a protest against the government - I think he's a UKIPper. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:52 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
European editor for RTE, the Irish national broadcaster (and presumably trustworthy):
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status ... 5467986944



Quote:
BREAKING: UK will concede that there will be no "regulatory divergence" on the island of Ireland on the single market and customs union, acc to a draft text seen by @rtenews

So a hard border between NI and the rUK, if true. Good luck getting the DUP to swallow that.

Faisal Islam has it too
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/ ... 9668595713


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 13:02 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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Cue Scotland and every other bit of the UK that was a Remain majority asking for the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 13:23 
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Gogmagog

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Right; I'm being slow here:

Basically, NI won't have a hard border and for all intents and purposes would function as now. The hard border would exist on mainland GB. But, if NI has it, Scotland are going to want it. And, probably,Wales.

Is that where we are?

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 13:24 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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Brexit means Brexit!


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 13:43 
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Decapodian

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Did anyone else see Jeremy Hunt’s comments about how if we don’t all get behind the PM, Brexit might not happen?
I wasn’t sure if that was a dire warning to the brexiteers, or a hint to the remainers that all is not lost.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 13:58 
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Gogmagog

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My gran could run a better brexit, and she's been dead 20 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 14:20 
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Squirt wrote:
Cue Scotland and every other bit of the UK that was a Remain majority asking for the same thing.


Also exemptions for manufacturing, farming, education.... basically, it's a Swiss cheese model with very little actual cheese.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 15:34 
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Nicola Sturgeon and Sadiq Khan have both issued statements saying "if NI gets to remain in the Single Market then we should too."


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 15:35 
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Gogmagog

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Robert Peston has written on Facebook says the Grauniad.

Quote:
Now it is with that very last concession that the PM is taking the political risk of her life, because in that concession she is in effect saying that a trade deal for the whole UK will also be based on a promise of close regulatory alignment between our country and the EU, in perpetuity.

That permanent regulatory convergence between the UK and EU is her preferred route, because without it her government would collapse: Northern Ireland’s DUP MPs, which are sustaining the Tories in office, have made it crystal clear that they will not accept a separate regulatory set-up for Northern Ireland from that prevailing in the UK as a whole.

But here is what I assume will be scaring the PM witless (it scares me, just as a bystander). She is signing up for close regulatory alignment between the UK and EU without ever having secured agreement for that from the cabinet.

And for Johnson, Gove and most of the other more ardent Brexiteers, in and out of the Cabinet, almost the whole point of leaving the EU was for the UK to “take back control” of setting rules and regulations for British businesses.


Oh. My.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 15:41 
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Gogmagog

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It reminds me of this

Quote:
Two days later the animals were called together for a special meeting in the barn. They were struck dumb with surprise when Napoleon announced that he had sold the pile of timber to Frederick. Tomorrow Frederick's wagons would arrive and begin carting it away. Throughout the whole period of his seeming friendship with Pilkington, Napoleon had really been in secret agreement with Frederick.

All relations with Foxwood had been broken off; insulting messages had been sent to Pilkington. The pigeons had been told to avoid Pinchfield Farm and to alter their slogan from "Death to Frederick" to "Death to Pilkington." At the same time Napoleon assured the animals that the stories of an impending attack on Animal Farm were completely untrue, and that the tales about Frederick's cruelty to his own animals had been greatly exaggerated. All these rumours had probably originated with Snowball and his agents. It now appeared that Snowball was not, after all, hiding on Pinchfield Farm, and in fact had never been there in his life: he was living–in considerable luxury, so it was said–at Foxwood, and had in reality been a pensioner of Pilkington for years past.
The pigs were in ecstasies over Napoleon's cunning. By seeming to be friendly with Pilkington he had forced Frederick to raise his price by twelve pounds. But the superior quality of Napoleon's mind, said Squealer, was shown in the fact that he trusted nobody, not even Frederick. Frederick had wanted to pay for the timber with something called a cheque, which, it seemed, was a piece of paper with a promise to pay written upon it. But Napoleon was too clever for him. He had demanded payment in real five-pound notes, which were to be handed over before the timber was removed. Already Frederick had paid up; and the sum he had paid was just enough to buy the machinery for the windmill.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 15:44 
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MaliA wrote:
It reminds me of this


:DD Apt.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 16:47 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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It would be quite something if the offer put forward by the UK Government is accepted by the EU, but rejected by the UK Government.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 17:06 
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Sleepyhead

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The DUP have said they will categorically not vote for anything that sees NI and rUK diverge in any way.

So there goes the majority if they want to change the status of NI.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 17:18 
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Gogmagog

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Squirt wrote:
It would be quite something if the offer put forward by the UK Government is accepted by the EU, but rejected by the UK Government.


I think this will happen, mainly because it's such a mess to begin with, and the pointless, stupid, rhetoric spewed daily which does nothing means if must be so.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 17:19 
Filthy Junkie Bitch

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Would be a strong and dangerous tactical play for the rest of the opposition to use NI as a tactical porn at the last gasp of brexit negotiations to force a no confidence issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 17:19 
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EvilTrousers

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ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
... tactical porn ....


Name of Kern's sex tape

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 17:19 
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Unpossible!

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ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
...tactical porn...

Is that one with camo pants?

edit: damn you, Trousers!


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 17:22 
Filthy Junkie Bitch

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Well. That was an interesting choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 17:48 
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EvilTrousers

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DavPaz wrote:
ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
...tactical porn...

Is that one with camo pants?

edit: damn you, Trousers!


By a matter of seconds.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 18:13 
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https://twitter.com/spleenal/status/937662411783462913



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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 18:16 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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Presumably this would mean that any future trade deals the UK signs will be filled with little asterisks saying "BTW, this bit doesn't apply to Northern Ireland".


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 18:27 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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Cras wrote:
https://twitter.com/spleenal/status/937662411783462913

I like these suicide machines as a Brexit Metaphor

Giphy "suicide machine":
https://media0.giphy.com/media/Q2XQna3gHWDrW/giphy-loop.mp4


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 18:27 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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Well, a machine whose action is to slowly destroy itself, rather than a Panda with an automatic rifle.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 21:34 
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INFINITE POWAH

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What an absolute clusterfuck.

Still, that's the world all over at the moment. Now, more the ever, I do wonder what sort of a world we're leaving for Keith Richards.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 21:42 
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This is fucking embarrassing.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... dApp_Tweet

Quote:
Confidence early on Monday that an agreement was within reach came to nothing when, during a working lunch with the European commission president, Jean Claude Juncker, May was forced to pause discussions to take a call from Arlene Foster.

The unionist leader, whose party currently provides the Tories with a working majority in the Commons, told the British prime minister that she could not support Downing Street’s planned commitment to keep Northern Ireland aligned with EU laws.

In London, Tory Brexiters, including Iain Duncan Smith and Jacob Rees-Mogg, told the Brexit minister Steve Baker, and the prime minister’s chief of staff, Gavin Barwell, that they were also rallying behind the DUP’s stance.

Lord Trimble, a former first minister of Northern Ireland told the Guardian said Tory MPs at the meeting had shown “unanimous backing for opposition to the draft proposal he said was “minted in Dublin”.

The development raises fresh questions about May’s ability to deliver on any deal she proposes to the 27 member states, and has filled diplomats in Brussels with a deep foreboding for future talks, should they develop in the new year to take in the future relationship.

Diplomats were waiting for two hours in a negotiating room at the Council of Ministers headquarters, for a meeting that had been planned to follow the Juncker-May lunch. When it became clear the two sides could not get an agreement, the officials were sent home.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 21:59 
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INFINITE POWAH

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Yes, that was what I just saw on the news... fucking embarrassment

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 23:58 
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Est. 1978

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MrChris wrote:
Yes, that was what I just saw on the news... fucking embarrassment

Happy birthday!

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:04 
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Amazing! This is just the warm up as well. I wonder how much of a shitshow it will be if/when they ever get to the actual negotiations.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:13 
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I'm so impressed that the opposition party are taking so many shots at this massive open goal and about to bring the government down.

Oh, sorry. Wrong timeline.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:21 
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EvilTrousers

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Kern wrote:
I'm so impressed that the opposition party are taking so many shots at this massive open goal and about to bring the government down.

Oh, sorry. Wrong timeline.


Even refused to go on Today this morning after the DUP and Tories had already knocked it back. Kier Starmer could have gone on and kicked the absolute shit out of the process but no, sit on your fucking hands and get the outcome you want and fuck the consequences just hoping it leads to a Tory collapse so you can get your hands on the reins of power just as the entire country is heading off a cliff.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:29 
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Yeah, you don't even have to worry about upsetting Brexit supporters. Just bang on about 'Tory Brexit causing chaos' and everyone would be happy. But no.

To have a Prime Minister being destroyed by Europe is par for the course for contemporary British Conservatives; to be destroyed by Ireland is practically historical re-enactment. To be undone by both would be a towering achievement for her.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:33 
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Squirt wrote:
Well, a machine whose action is to slowly destroy itself.


Pandas eat the wrong things, do little exercise, and fail to have sex.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:39 
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Comfortably Dumb

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Kern wrote:
Squirt wrote:
Well, a machine whose action is to slowly destroy itself.


Pandas eat the wrong things, do little exercise, and fail to have sex.


Well that saves me completing one of those 'which animal are you?' quizzes

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:54 
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Gogmagog

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Trousers wrote:
Kern wrote:
I'm so impressed that the opposition party are taking so many shots at this massive open goal and about to bring the government down.

Oh, sorry. Wrong timeline.


Even refused to go on Today this morning after the DUP and Tories had already knocked it back. Kier Starmer could have gone on and kicked the absolute shit out of the process but no, sit on your fucking hands and get the outcome you want and fuck the consequences just hoping it leads to a Tory collapse so you can get your hands on the reins of power just as the entire country is heading off a cliff.


Oh, bloody hell.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:06 
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Gogmagog

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Kern wrote:
Yeah, you don't even have to worry about upsetting Brexit supporters. Just bang on about 'Tory Brexit causing chaos' and everyone would be happy. But no.

To have a Prime Minister being destroyed by Europe is par for the course for contemporary British Conservatives; to be destroyed by Ireland is practically historical re-enactment. To be undone by both would be a towering achievement for her.


Totally agree. It's painfully dire.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:07 
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Kern wrote:
Yeah, you don't even have to worry about upsetting Brexit supporters. Just bang on about 'Tory Brexit causing chaos' and everyone would be happy. But no.

"Faced with an open goal, Mr Corbyn picks up a tennis racket."


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:25 
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devilman wrote:
Kern wrote:
Squirt wrote:
Well, a machine whose action is to slowly destroy itself.


Pandas eat the wrong things, do little exercise, and fail to have sex.

Well that saves me completing one of those 'which animal are you?' quizzes


Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Kern wrote:
Yeah, you don't even have to worry about upsetting Brexit supporters. Just bang on about 'Tory Brexit causing chaos' and everyone would be happy. But no.

"Faced with an open goal, Mr Corbyn picks up a tennis racket."


Both of these get a sizeable "good work, fellow".

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:15 
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Rude Belittler

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devilman wrote:
Kern wrote:
Squirt wrote:
Well, a machine whose action is to slowly destroy itself.


Pandas eat the wrong things, do little exercise, and fail to have sex.


Well that saves me completing one of those 'which animal are you?' quizzes


:this:


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 13:07 
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May can't even get a meeting with Arlene Foster now. Remind me which one is running the country?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12 ... g_share_tw


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 13:29 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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Half of me feels sorry for May - she's in a basically no-win situation now, with no real way to square the hard Brexit press and backbenchers against the grinding realities that are now hitting home, and she doesn't appear to be up to the task of handling it. Then I remember that it's her own bloody fault she's here, and she really could have sorted all this out before notifying under Article 50 and then calling a snap election and drawing arbitrary red lines everywhere and taking 6 months to agree something that could have been sorted in the first week and I stop.


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