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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 13:33 
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SavyGamer

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I think the problem you described with "young people" is actually just a problem with "people", and is equally if not more present with older people.

Younger people just have no capacity to do anything about it, because so much political power is consolidated with older people.

Edit: I'd say the argument for letting people vote at 16 is extremely compelling. If for nothing else than getting people to engage with politics at a younger age, before cynicism sets in.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 14:05 
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Gogmagog

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All 16 year olds think about is Snapchat and Rainbow parties.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 14:06 
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It's not fair to judge 16 year olds by your own standards.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 14:07 
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Gogmagog

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MaliA wrote:
All 16 year olds think about is Snapchat and Rainbow parties.


Apropos of this, looking back, my shopping purchase on Friday afternoon were a bottle of dark rum, 4 cans of ting and a Taylor Swift CD, so I'm totes on flick with that demographic.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 14:15 
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MaliA wrote:
totes on flick
That's "on fleek". And you were doing so well.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 14:22 
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Commander-in-Cheese

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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
MaliA wrote:
totes on flick
That's "on fleek". And you were doing so well.


Apart from the fact that the context of its usage was completely wrong

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 14:23 
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Cras wrote:
Apart from the fact that the context of its usage was completely wrong

I was trying to let him down gently.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 14:23 
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Gogmagog

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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
MaliA wrote:
totes on flick
That's "on fleek". And you were doing so well.


It's these little things that give away the fact I'm 27. Like the guy in the Great Escape answering something in English.

By the by, as I think of it: Oh, fun fact! 50% of the Welsh people I know are called Richard and have a doctorate in something and don't live in Wales. The others are Theodore Egg and the final one is my dad's mate. I don't know their educational stuffs though.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 14:50 
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You're not very good at percentages either, presumably :P


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 15:02 
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I think that might have been the joke.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 15:06 
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Gogmagog

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Or I know 2 Welsh Dr Richards.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 15:07 
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Isn't that lovely?

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I just thought he knew 2 people called Richard, both from Wales and with a PhD.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 15:11 
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Actually yes, I totally misread it which means that I'm shit at reading comprehension and thus am hoist by my own petard.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 15:54 
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LewieP wrote:
I think the problem you described with "young people" is actually just a problem with "people", and is equally if not more present with older people.

Younger people just have no capacity to do anything about it, because so much political power is consolidated with older people.

Edit: I'd say the argument for letting people vote at 16 is extremely compelling. If for nothing else than getting people to engage with politics at a younger age, before cynicism sets in.


Obviously i'm describing my own experiences, but I've been involved in politics ever since i was a teenager (and i was a high school teacher some years ago), and it was normal for younger to lean left-winged and be involved in politics at least to some extent. Both in my generation and my sister's which is older, there was nationwide protests for free university for example. It was kind of cliché, but the modus operandi of growing up was for some of them to start earning money and becoming a bit more selfish and lean more right. Nowadays most of the kids are more right winged than ever, some of them racist and misogynistic right of the bat, which makes me wonder where they'll go when they get older.

My parents are both way more progressive thinking than most of the teenagers today.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 15:57 
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I think the young right wing is louder, but I don't for a minute think it's bigger. The left has trended higher in any youth vote you can mention over the last 15 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 15:57 
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Obviously I can't speak for portugal there.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 16:05 
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Cras wrote:
The left has trended higher in any youth vote you can mention over the last 15 years.

Cras wrote:
Obviously I can't speak for portugal there.

That's some fast backpedalling.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 16:07 
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Cras wrote:
Obviously I can't speak for portugal there.

Just make baby noises.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 16:15 
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Emily Thornberry in the Commons just now. Ouch.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 16:16 
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Cras wrote:
Obviously I can't speak for portugal there.


We have a left majority here in the parliament, but it's mostly due to older people voting which tend to be more left winged, and 5% voters in the centre who were sick of the austerity. The youngers tend to be more right winged. Both we and Spain continue to be free from the far-right in the parliament due to our recent history, but i don't know if it will be for long.

Although more younger people voting left might not mean much when many of them don't even know what that means. There was hope in the US with Bernie Sanders. But that's gone. AFAIK I know in the UK Corbin tries to bring the party closer to its core values, but is he ever going to win anything? Is he been taken seriously by the media and the establishment?

In Brazil the left is discredited with the scandals. The country was sucked dry during decades by the right, but apparently it's way worse for a leftist to be corrupt, because then he's an hypocrite.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 16:35 
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Grim... wrote:
Cras wrote:
The left has trended higher in any youth vote you can mention over the last 15 years.

Cras wrote:
Obviously I can't speak for portugal there.

That's some fast backpedalling.


More fast realising I was being overly generic

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 23:15 
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Robert Peston claiming he's been told Priti Patel will be sacked within hours.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 23:16 
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She fucking should be. Mind you, only after Boris.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 23:18 
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Kuenssberg has said the same as Peston.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 14:26 
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A truly withering piece on May and the Tories. Thoroughly depressing insofar as they're the government and they're in charge of Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... riti-patel

Quote:
May looks overawed by her problems. The next phase of Brexit talks can be unlocked by a one-line concession on commitments owing to the EU budget. But for that, the prime minister must have a story to tell the public about what they get for their money. She doesn’t know. And she can’t sell compromise to a party geed up by hardline MPs to believe that the collapse of talks would be no bad thing. They only keep her in office because they believe her weakness makes her pliable to their revolutionary demands.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 14:38 
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https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/s ... competence

I missed this re: Patel

Quote:
I don’t want to dwell on the Patel story, because we’ve got a lot to get through here, but the press release in which she admitted all this is such a work of art that I don’t feel I can entirely skip it. Look at this bit:

Quote:
On Friday 3rd November, the Secretary of State was quoted in the Guardian newspaper as follows:

“Boris knew about the visit. The point is that the Foreign Office did know about this, Boris knew about [the trip].”

This quote may have given the impression that the Secretary of State had informed the Foreign Secretary about the visit in advance. The Secretary of State would like to take this opportunity to clarify that this was not the case.


Isn’t that the most fantastic euphemism you have ever seen? My claim that I did not eat that chocolate you keep in your drawer may have given the impression that I did not eat that chocolate you keep in your drawer. I would like to take this opportunity to clarify...


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 14:44 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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My prediction - May was intentionally using Patel to work around the FCO, or at least had given her the informal nod, and so can't just sack her.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 14:56 
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Squirt wrote:
My prediction - May was intentionally using Patel to work around the FCO, or at least had given her the informal nod, and so can't just sack her.


That would be more plausible if she weren't a minister. Sending a backbencher over gives plausible deniability ('Oh, the member for Trumpton is a nobody and we're glad they're over there rather than in the Commons'). If someone's a minister, that implies her actions openly carry the backing of the government.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 15:01 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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True! On second thoughts, trying to fathom the motivations of this government is probably a losing game overall.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 15:04 
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Squirt wrote:
the motivations of this government

"Survive to the end of the day."


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 15:30 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Squirt wrote:
the motivations of this government

"Survive to the end of the day."

I'm not sure they're even that sophisticated or possessed of that level of foresight these days.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 15:35 
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MrChris wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Squirt wrote:
the motivations of this government

"Survive to the end of the day."

I'm not sure they're even that sophisticated or possessed of that level of foresight these days.


Absolutely; we're driving headlong back to the Stone Age in the UK and no-one is listening anymore. Bye bye electricity; bye bye cheap flights on package holidays. I am utterly bereft and beyond consolation.

Man, I miss Tony Bliar.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 15:38 
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Gogmagog

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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Emily Thornberry in the Commons just now. Ouch.


She can be very good. But, yes, BOOM!

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 15:41 
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MaliA wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Emily Thornberry in the Commons just now. Ouch.


She can be very good. But, yes, BOOM!


Wasn't she the Labour Shadow Minister who sardonically poked fun at the hardworking, white van driving working class? Like she'd know a good, honest, hard days work if she saw one! Trolling your supposed/claimed constituency.... priceless. At least the Tories are honest to that extent.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 15:45 
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In fairness to her most people who fly massive England flags actually are, more often than not, complete fucking bellends.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 15:50 
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markg wrote:
In fairness to her most people who fly massive England flags actually are, more often than not, complete fucking bellends.


And I don't know where Rochester is.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 15:51 
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I nearly moved to Rochester

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 15:58 
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MaliA wrote:
markg wrote:
In fairness to her most people who fly massive England flags actually are, more often than not, complete fucking bellends.


And I don't know where Rochester is.


Medway. Or upper state New York. But most likely the former in this case.

Has a great castle. I did a parade there once and got hilariously drunk.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 15:58 
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MaliA wrote:
markg wrote:
In fairness to her most people who fly massive England flags actually are, more often than not, complete fucking bellends.


And I don't know where Rochester is.


The attic.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 15:58 
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Gogmagog

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Kern wrote:
MaliA wrote:
markg wrote:
In fairness to her most people who fly massive England flags actually are, more often than not, complete fucking bellends.


And I don't know where Rochester is.


Medway. Or upper state New York. But most likely the former in this case.

Has a great castle. I did a parade there once and got hilariously drunk.


I thought Runcorn was in London.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 16:01 
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Kern wrote:
MaliA wrote:
markg wrote:
In fairness to her most people who fly massive England flags actually are, more often than not, complete fucking bellends.


And I don't know where Rochester is.


The attic.

:D :D :D


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 16:37 
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MaliA wrote:
Kern wrote:
MaliA wrote:
markg wrote:
In fairness to her most people who fly massive England flags actually are, more often than not, complete fucking bellends.


And I don't know where Rochester is.


Medway. Or upper state New York. But most likely the former in this case.

Has a great castle. I did a parade there once and got hilariously drunk.


I thought Runcorn was in London.


By the Old Bailey

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 16:44 
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Let's check in with the state of sanity in the US population.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... ers-215800

Quote:
All this, perhaps, is not so surprising, considering polling continues to show that—in spite of unprecedented unpopularity—nearly all people who voted for Trump would do it again. But as I compared this year’s answers to last year’s responses it seemed clear that the basis of people’s support had morphed. Johnstown voters do not intend to hold the president accountable for the nonnegotiable pledges he made to them. It’s not that the people who made Trump president have generously moved the goalposts for him. It’s that they have eliminated the goalposts altogether.

This reality ought to get the attention of anyone who thinks they will win in 2018 or 2020 by running against Trump’s record. His supporters here, it turns out, are energized by his bombast and his animus more than any actual accomplishments. For them, it’s evidently not what he’s doing so much as it is the people he’s fighting. Trump is simply and unceasingly angry on their behalf, battling the people who vex them the worst—“obstructionist” Democrats, uncooperative establishment Republicans, the media, Black Lives Matter protesters and NFL players (boy oh boy do they hate kneeling NFL players) whom they see as ungrateful, disrespectful millionaires.

...

“Everybody I talk to,” he said, “realizes it’s not Trump who’s dragging his feet. Trump’s probably the most diligent, hardest-working president we’ve ever had in our lifetimes. It’s not like he sleeps in till noon and goes golfing every weekend, like the last president did.”

I stopped him, informing him that, yes, Barack Obama liked to golf, but Trump in fact does golf a lot, too—more, in fact.

Del Signore was surprised to hear this.

“Does he?” he said.

“Yes,” I said.

He did not linger on this topic, smiling and changing the subject with a quip. “If I was married to his wife,” Del Signore said, “I don’t think I’d go anywhere.”

Del Signore said he’s been following politics far more than before because of Trump. Trump, he said, is just “more interesting.” So now he likes watching the news. “Ninety-nine percent of the time I watch Fox,” he said. “Sometimes I’ll be sitting there listening to all this Fox stuff, and I’ll say, ‘Maybe they aren’t right, maybe I’ll flip to CNN’—but every time I’ve found that Fox has been correct, and CNN is definitely fake news.”


Oh.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 17:04 
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markg wrote:
In fairness to her most people who fly massive England flags actually are, more often than not, complete fucking bellends.


There are worse bellends than those earnestly and demonstrably, yet benignly patriotic, old school types. Much worse...
At least they're not pretending to be anything else; there's a certain authenticity and honesty about it. (I'll be waving my Union Jack this coming Sunday, though doubtless that's The Wrong Thing To Do around here ;) )

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 17:23 
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You've clearly run into a different group of massive England flag flyers than I have! In my experience, a huge England flag permanently flying on your house is a pretty good signifier for someone who says "I just say it how I see it" but is in actual fact rude and obnoxious.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 17:28 
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There's a very big difference between flying a flag for remembrance and flying one out of your window all year round because you wish it was 1966 again when you could beat your kids and there weren't so many brown people.

It's a stereotype, for sure, but it's a stereotype of a very real chunk of the population. Particularly in the Medway area.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 17:29 
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If they fly them when there's no sporting event on at the time then they're a cunt.

If they fly them when there's a sporting event on at the time then they're a twat.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 17:38 
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Squirt wrote:
You've clearly run into a different group of massive England flag flyers than I have! In my experience, a huge England flag permanently flying on your house is a pretty good signifier for someone who says "I just say it how I see it" but is in actual fact rude and obnoxious.

And racist.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 17:42 
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Cras wrote:
There's a very big difference between flying a flag for remembrance and flying one out of your window all year round because you wish it was 1966 again when you could beat your kids and there weren't so many brown people.

It's a stereotype, for sure, but it's a stereotype of a very real chunk of the population. Particularly in the Medway area.


Clearly I'm not defending what you describe but you can't stereotype/tar all with the same brush. One of my best mates - with whom I spent a very enjoyable evening at a curry house in Northwich this very weekend past - has said flag pole in his front garden AND drives a Transit, albeit it's silver :D He's a great guy and a very good mate who I know for a fact I could rely on in any tight spot about 10,000 times more than anyone here and he's never bitched about me or called me behind my back either. I doubt he even knows what Twitter is.

Regardless, my own pet hate are Champagne Socialists like Thornberry with her nose raised up in the air, her multi-million pound property portfolio in Islington, her QC husband and all the rest..... 'Labour' huh? If you were to home in on all the manifold things that are wrong with the Labour Party and have been for decades, one of them most surely be this utter lack of authenticity. What do people like her know about struggling to pay the bills and keeping a roof over you & yours heads, working hard for a pittance in unfair conditions, with nothing but a third-rate education? I hate Labour as an organisation but the essential aims and reasons for its being are entirely laudable; it's just a shame they can't get the staff and their credibility left the building by the early 70s.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 17:42 
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Tarring working class people with the racist brush is not very comradely imo. Yes there is a subsection of poor people who are racist and ignorant, but there are plenty of middle class and upper class racist pricks too. From the left, right and centre.

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