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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:50 
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Lonewolves wrote:
You're conflating a personal belief of the victim with the actual legal side of a trial etc. A lot of the time the victims don't end up pressing charges. If someone came to me and told me they had been raped, I would believe them. I wouldn't demand proof. The legal side of it I am not commenting on at all.

Indeed, I wasn't talking about someone talking to me personally.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:59 
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Everyone's take on it is influenced heavily by the very human trait of identifying first off with someone who is most like them in some way. So it's fairly normal for a man when considering these scenarios to first imagine himself in the situation of someone falsely accused of something awful by some fucking nutter and losing everything as a result, his wife, his children etc. It's a horrifying thing to contemplate and even if you know it's vanishingly unlikely to happen it's hard not to make your mind go there. In much the same way as if you have kids and you hear about some random abduction, the first thing you often do is consider how you might feel if that were your child, you spin out scenarios in your mind where it happens and feel some degree of terror. Then usually later you might calm yourself and realise that almost certainly it never will be. Before I had a daughter I would try to imagine how that might feel but that gut-wrenching feeling wasn't there. So I can't honestly say that I know how women might feel reading about this stuff. I can and do try to imagine but really I'm clueless.

I dunno I'm rambling a bit but in reality what I actually do is decide what I think every time something happens. In all these recent high-profile cases it hasn't really crossed my mind to not believe the victims simply because so many people seem to be saying the same thing. But if I just read about a case where it was totally one person's word against another then I would still tend to believe the victim but there might be more than a sliver of doubt which might cause me to not mentally want to throw that person under a bus without knowing a bit more.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:23 
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markg wrote:
Everyone's take on it is influenced heavily by the very human trait of identifying first off with someone who is most like them in some way. So it's fairly normal for a man when considering these scenarios to first imagine himself in the situation of someone falsely accused of something awful by some fucking nutter and losing everything as a result, his wife, his children etc. It's a horrifying thing to contemplate and even if you know it's vanishingly unlikely to happen it's hard not to make your mind go there. In much the same way as if you have kids and you hear about some random abduction, the first thing you often do is consider how you might feel if that were your child, you spin out scenarios in your mind where it happens and feel some degree of terror. Then usually later you might calm yourself and realise that almost certainly it never will be. Before I had a daughter I would try to imagine how that might feel but that gut-wrenching feeling wasn't there. So I can't honestly say that I know how women might feel reading about this stuff. I can and do try to imagine but really I'm clueless.

I dunno I'm rambling a bit but in reality what I actually do is decide what I think every time something happens. In all these recent high-profile cases it hasn't really crossed my mind to not believe the victims simply because so many people seem to be saying the same thing. But if I just read about a case where it was totally one person's word against another then I would still tend to believe the victim but there might be more than a sliver of doubt which might cause me to not mentally want to throw that person under a bus without knowing a bit more.


What you say here is perfectly understandable and reasonable, it's a measured response and you put thought into it. Not everyone does. There are always situations where people's black and white need to have, and express, an opinion are not measured or reasonable. A lot of the background to the formation of a belief or opinion is societal, and I think that is the issue in these and many other cases.

Going back to my police officer acquaintance, I was beyond shocked at their opinion and pointed out the infinite reasons someone may not choose to follow up a complaint of sexual assault or harassment. Their solicitor may have advised them not to because of lack of proof, a mutual friend may have suggested the accused has too much to lose, and was it really that bad, it's not like he held a gun to your head or beat you.

Asfish has a colleague who thought him asking a question would be misconstrued by the woman with the nail polish on. Her imagined response gave him cause to be offened in response. It is society and the behaviour of men generally that resulted in that situation, not her potential upset. It's nobodies right to say, do or ask someone whatever they want, whatever the situation. If you don't know that person well enough for a question not to be weird, don't ask. That's not on her.

Teenage girls looking like they're 18 when they're 13 and getting men shouting to them in the street "I didn't know she was a kid - look how she's dressed". That's not her fault, why are you blatantly ogling females in the street? Don't do it, and then you don't have to defend yourself with some false, misplaced offence at how a child is dressed.

It is mens behaviour that has lead to encounters being awkward or uncomfortable. Women should not have to be on guard. And men should not find offense in her actions but in the actions of all the men before him.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:46 
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flis wrote:
markg wrote:
Everyone's take on it is influenced heavily by the very human trait of identifying first off with someone who is most like them in some way. So it's fairly normal for a man when considering these scenarios to first imagine himself in the situation of someone falsely accused of something awful by some fucking nutter and losing everything as a result, his wife, his children etc. It's a horrifying thing to contemplate and even if you know it's vanishingly unlikely to happen it's hard not to make your mind go there. In much the same way as if you have kids and you hear about some random abduction, the first thing you often do is consider how you might feel if that were your child, you spin out scenarios in your mind where it happens and feel some degree of terror. Then usually later you might calm yourself and realise that almost certainly it never will be. Before I had a daughter I would try to imagine how that might feel but that gut-wrenching feeling wasn't there. So I can't honestly say that I know how women might feel reading about this stuff. I can and do try to imagine but really I'm clueless.

I dunno I'm rambling a bit but in reality what I actually do is decide what I think every time something happens. In all these recent high-profile cases it hasn't really crossed my mind to not believe the victims simply because so many people seem to be saying the same thing. But if I just read about a case where it was totally one person's word against another then I would still tend to believe the victim but there might be more than a sliver of doubt which might cause me to not mentally want to throw that person under a bus without knowing a bit more.


What you say here is perfectly understandable and reasonable, it's a measured response and you put thought into it. Not everyone does. There are always situations where people's black and white need to have, and express, an opinion are not measured or reasonable. A lot of the background to the formation of a belief or opinion is societal, and I think that is the issue in these and many other cases.

Going back to my police officer acquaintance, I was beyond shocked at their opinion and pointed out the infinite reasons someone may not choose to follow up a complaint of sexual assault or harassment. Their solicitor may have advised them not to because of lack of proof, a mutual friend may have suggested the accused has too much to lose, and was it really that bad, it's not like he held a gun to your head or beat you.

Asfish has a colleague who thought him asking a question would be misconstrued by the woman with the nail polish on. Her imagined response gave him cause to be offened in response. It is society and the behaviour of men generally that resulted in that situation, not her potential upset. It's nobodies right to say, do or ask someone whatever they want, whatever the situation. If you don't know that person well enough for a question not to be weird, don't ask. That's not on her.

Teenage girls looking like they're 18 when they're 13 and getting men shouting to them in the street "I didn't know she was a kid - look how she's dressed". That's not her fault, why are you blatantly ogling females in the street? Don't do it, and then you don't have to defend yourself with some false, misplaced offence at how a child is dressed.

It is mens behaviour that has lead to encounters being awkward or uncomfortable. Women should not have to be on guard. And men should not find offense in her actions but in the actions of all the men before him.


:this:

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:51 
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Flis wins this thread

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:58 
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I know it looks extreme or that I hate men but I really don't. I just wish there was a way to make some more understanding and empathic. It is hard to read and think you'd be anything like that, or hard to think that a totally innocent comment would make someone feel bad or get defensive. Yes, it's sad we're not part of a world where people can talk to each other or smile at each other or say hello to a stranger without the risk of someone thinking you're creepy. Seriously though, where do people think that came from?

So much stuff should be innocent, or should be taken as meant in that moment but when you're on the receiving end of regular behaviour that is not okay, it's difficult to view every instance in isolation. It's hard to smile every time someone says something that they believe is complimentary but makes you want to curl up and die.

Our whole lives we've been taught to minimise the risk to ourselves by avoiding behaviour that would provoke a reaction from men. Why can't men just not react? Don't look at us the change things, change the behaviour and attitudes of your sons, male friends, coworkers. Don't accept it. Don't think just because you can't see it happen, it doesn't happen. Repeat that it isn't acceptable to and maybe in another 50 years, that will become typical.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 13:01 
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This is so true(: this bit ”And men should not find offense in her actions but in the actions of all the men before him”) . I was driving my car the other day and I clocked some woman on the street was looking very pretty, probably just walking home from work, and from the comfort of my car I could see at least 3 men on the street actively straining their necks to look at her. I had my sunglasses on so I had no worry about just watching them watching her but it was just shameful behaviour. They didn’t even attempt to hide what they were doing; it was just brazen rubber necking. And one bloke was just on his own. Just walking along and thought it was acceptable to stop dead in his tracks and make someone feel uncomfortable. He didn’t give two shits that there was a row of stationary traffic around him probably looking at him being a creep. I don’t know what’s happened in his life that makes him think this was even the slightest bit acceptable.

If that was me walking home from work with some random fucks leering at me I’d feel all kinds of awkward and I’m a mess of a person at the best of times.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:36 
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Ok, just my 2 cents on this whole situation:

a) Rapp was allegedly harassed when he was 14, which is pretty nasty and reason enough to believe this situation caused him so much stress. Now there are some other people, who were grown man, to claim to have PTSD from crouch grabbing Spacey. Jesus, just grow a spine. Listening to these people is minoring the suffering of real victims, like some women weinstein raped or minors who were harassed. I also was groped, more than once, by both man and women, and it's not like i'm losing sleep over it. Obviously, i was already a grown men.

b) Saying you believe victims because "they have nothing to gain from lying and exposing themselves", is assuming that everybody in the world is sane and reasonable. Seriously? Isn't that being a bit naive?
"The innocent until guilty" principle is one of the most important things in a state of law. Never underestimate the importance of it. My sister is a lawyer, and one of the first things they learn is something like "better to have 100 criminals free than a convicted innocent". Or something like that. I should get back to work. Please don't hate me.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:41 
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I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:44 
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I also agree that in a court of law ‘innocent until proven guilty’ is absolutely fundamental, which is why we have burden of proof.

As individuals we also are able to look at the innocence until proven otherwise of the victim. He/she is innocent, very likely extremely affected by the incident, and deserves our support and belief in his/her innocence and need for help.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:45 
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RuySan wrote:
a) Rapp was allegedly harassed when he was 14, which is pretty nasty and reason enough to believe this situation caused him so much stress. Now there are some other people, who were grown man, to claim to have PTSD from crouch grabbing Spacey.

What's the cut-off point for a grown man? Sixteen years old?

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:46 
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Mimi wrote:
I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.


Ok, maybe I wasn't sensitive enough. I'm sorry. Maybe the guy had some rough upbringing and crouch grabbing triggers something, i dunno. Each one of us has our own demons. I had a boss who was a bully which gave me much more headaches than any crotch grabbing, so yes, but it's not like I'm asking for his career to be finished, like some people are doing with dustin hoffman for something shitty he said more than 30 years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:48 
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Mimi wrote:
I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.

Absolutely this. Unwanted sexual contact can be traumatic no matter who the perpetrator is.

I think some men imagine a sexy lady fondling them and wonder what the fuss is about, but if you have someone going beyond the boundaries of your personal space in any way it can be very frightening, especially if that person is in a position of power.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:48 
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RuySan wrote:
Mimi wrote:
I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.


Ok, maybe I wasn't sensitive enough. I'm sorry. Maybe the guy had some rough upbringing and crouch grabbing triggers something, i dunno. Each one of us has our own demons. I had a boss who was a bully which gave me much more headaches than any crotch grabbing, so yes, but it's not like I'm asking for his career to be finished, like some people are doing with dustin hoffman for something shitty he said more than 30 years ago.

You sound like a sociopath, sorry. You need to work on your empathy.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:51 
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Grim... wrote:
RuySan wrote:
a) Rapp was allegedly harassed when he was 14, which is pretty nasty and reason enough to believe this situation caused him so much stress. Now there are some other people, who were grown man, to claim to have PTSD from crouch grabbing Spacey.

What's the cut-off point for a grown man? Sixteen years old?


I can understand someone as powerful as Weinstein abusing his situation, and victims be afraid to speak out and have their careers ruined, by why did guys over 20 or 30 allowed Spacey to have this kind of behaviour for years? Maybe Spacey's gaydar was broken.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:51 
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It's interesting, actually. RuySan, you're Portuguese, yes? I get the impression that Portugal still goes in for the whole "machismo" thing. Where men are expected to be MEN and not have feelings and such. Correct me if I'm wrong, naturally!


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:52 
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Lonewolves wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Mimi wrote:
I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.


Ok, maybe I wasn't sensitive enough. I'm sorry. Maybe the guy had some rough upbringing and crouch grabbing triggers something, i dunno. Each one of us has our own demons. I had a boss who was a bully which gave me much more headaches than any crotch grabbing, so yes, but it's not like I'm asking for his career to be finished, like some people are doing with dustin hoffman for something shitty he said more than 30 years ago.

You sound like a sociopath, sorry. You need to work on your empathy.


Seriously, that's a really shitty thing to say. You don't know me.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:53 
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RuySan wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Mimi wrote:
I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.


Ok, maybe I wasn't sensitive enough. I'm sorry. Maybe the guy had some rough upbringing and crouch grabbing triggers something, i dunno. Each one of us has our own demons. I had a boss who was a bully which gave me much more headaches than any crotch grabbing, so yes, but it's not like I'm asking for his career to be finished, like some people are doing with dustin hoffman for something shitty he said more than 30 years ago.

You sound like a sociopath, sorry. You need to work on your empathy.


Seriously, that's a really shitty thing to say. You don't know me.

Then I apologise. It must be something lost in translation.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:04 
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RuySan wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Mimi wrote:
I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.


Ok, maybe I wasn't sensitive enough. I'm sorry. Maybe the guy had some rough upbringing and crouch grabbing triggers something, i dunno. Each one of us has our own demons. I had a boss who was a bully which gave me much more headaches than any crotch grabbing, so yes, but it's not like I'm asking for his career to be finished, like some people are doing with dustin hoffman for something shitty he said more than 30 years ago.

You sound like a sociopath, sorry. You need to work on your empathy.


Seriously, that's a really shitty thing to say. You don't know me.

But you also don’t know these victims of sexual assault. You say you’ve had similar experiences and gotten over it. We’ve hurled all manner of abuse and labels at Myp, and he’s gotten over it, so it’s kind of like saying ‘if he can get over it then you should similarly grow a spine’.

Ok, it’s a different thing, but you clearly didn’t like being labelled a sociopath on a public forum, completely understandably. But there are many, perhaps most people that would say that such a passing remark pales into insignificance with having your private space invaded and the most private parts of your body unsolicitously groped and grabbed by another human being, of your acquaintance or otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:06 
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DavPaz wrote:
It's interesting, actually. RuySan, you're Portuguese, yes? I get the impression that Portugal still goes in for the whole "machismo" thing. Where men are expected to be MEN and not have feelings and such. Correct me if I'm wrong, naturally!


Well, that could have been true on my parents generation. I only saw my father crying when his mother died and still it was only for a little while. But from my experience, that's not so much true. Both my father and father in law cook and do house chores regularly, and so do i, and most of my friends.

Portugal was the 3rd most peaceful country in the world according to the UN (only Iceland and New Zealand were higher), and that takes into account any type of crime, including sex offences. I think you're wrong. Brazil is more like that though, and generally people have that stereotype about Brazilians beating their wives.

The thing is, we came out from a brutal dictatorship not long ago, so we still have more important thing to worry about than PC culture. Still today I read an article from a respected female left winged journalism claiming that Anglo-Saxon Political Correctness is infecting our society. And before you doubt my credentials, i'm a militant from a socialist political party (claimed by the right to be an extremist left party) and have actually worked and rallied many years for equal rights for women and minorities. What i hate is today's slacktivists getting worried about anything.

Anyway, I digress. But i'm not a sociopath, but it's not the first time someone said something like that, so why should i expect better from this forum?


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:10 
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Being called a sociopath ain’t the worst thing in the world. I can think of much more insulting names that one human can call another.

Myp is all of them. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:11 
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Satsuma wrote:
Being called a sociopath ain’t the worst thing in the world. I can think of much more insulting names that one human can call another.

Myp is all of them. ;)

It's ok, my spine was fully formed a long time ago. Your words cannot hurt me (only crouch grabbing whatever that is)

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:12 
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Lonewolves wrote:
crouch grabbing


Is that like a stealth kill?


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:15 
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That's fascinating, Ruysan. I confess that I know very little about Portuguese politics. That whole Anglo Saxon political correctness thing is stunning. Is it seen to radiate from us?


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:22 
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RuySan wrote:
But i'm not a sociopath, but it's not the first time someone said something like that, so why should i expect better from this forum?

I said you seem like a sociopath - subtle difference. I am not a medical professional so cannot diagnose you. But obviously my mere words have upset you. Can you now perhaps see that different things upset different people and you were wrong to dismiss people who have suffered trauma as needing to grow a spine?

Also way to make a generalisation on the whole forum here by one member's words.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:24 
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But you seem to be asking for an understanding that your society, way of life, priorities should be different from that of the ‘Anglo-Saxon Western PC culture’ that is ‘infecting’ your way of life, but it’s perhaps one of the tenets of a more understanding (‘PC’, if you will) way of seeing things that asks people to step back and say ‘I understand your way of life may have different values...’. Otherwise you might write whole nations off as savages for their differences. Unfortunately sexual assault is slightly different in that speaking up is still taboo... here in the UK as much as many other places, and you, whether from UK, Portugal, anywhere else should perhaps not make a call on the worthiness of a victim for the abuse they have suffered, or the point at which, or age at which, somethjng becomes inappropriate, affecting, life changing... Portuguese victims of sexual harassment need space and support to say ‘this happened to me and is wrong’ as much as anybody else on the planet if they need to. You, with your experiences, say you have no need, and that’s good that you have moved on unaffected, but war, famine, oppressive regimes, natural disaster... whatever ‘big’ and nationally awful things that might happen to a nation may not eclipse the awful things that might affect people on a personal level, but rather add on to it. An extreme example, but somebody raped during an occupation of their homeland does not get over the rape because their country is suffering on a large scale.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:24 
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DavPaz wrote:
That's fascinating, Ruysan. I confess that I know very little about Portuguese politics. That whole Anglo Saxon political correctness thing is stunning. Is it seen to radiate from us?


Both the Anglo Saxon PC and the Anglo Saxon alt-right/gaming racism/misogynist (that is a word for that in our language but i forgot, and it's not Gamergate) that is "infecting" our youth. I couldn't believe the crap that came out of the mouth of my wife's 18 old cousin. You know, the whole "feminist-hating", "trump-loving" deal. Not even the most despicable guys in my teenage years could have opinions like that, and I was always an optimist and though each generation would be better than the one that preceded it. But apparently online games broke evolution.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:26 
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Grim... wrote:
RuySan wrote:
a) Rapp was allegedly harassed when he was 14, which is pretty nasty and reason enough to believe this situation caused him so much stress. Now there are some other people, who were grown man, to claim to have PTSD from crouch grabbing Spacey.

What's the cut-off point for a grown man? Sixteen years old?

Yes, that’s when the final vertebrae is formed and your spine is fully grown. That’s why younger teens slouch when they walk. That’s also why kids have that growth spurt at 16.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:32 
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Mimi wrote:
But you seem to be asking for an understanding that your society, way of life, priorities should be different from that of the ‘Anglo-Saxon Western PC culture’ that is ‘infecting’ your way of life, but it’s perhaps one of the tenets of a more understanding (‘PC’, if you will) way of seeing things that asks people to step back and say ‘I understand your way of life may have different values...’. Otherwise you might write whole nations off as savages for their differences. Unfortunately sexual assault is slightly different in that speaking up is still taboo... here in the UK as much as many other places, and you, whether from UK, Portugal, anywhere else should perhaps not make a call on the worthiness of a victim for the abuse they have suffered, or the point at which, or age at which, somethjng becomes inappropriate, affecting, life changing... Portuguese victims of sexual harassment need space and support to say ‘this happened to me and is wrong’ as much as anybody else on the planet if they need to. You, with your experiences, say you have no need, and that’s good that you have moved on unaffected, but war, famine, oppressive regimes, natural disaster... whatever ‘big’ and nationally awful things that might happen to a nation may not eclipse the awful things that might affect people on a personal level, but rather add on to it. An extreme example, but somebody raped during an occupation of their homeland does not get over the rape because their country is suffering on a large scale.


Of course not, because rape is rape and rape is terrible. But rape isn't what this is about.

I'm complaining, but for some reason i still read The Guardian when it comes to world news. Don't know why I would read something so skewed. The last week there was an article about how a judge here in portugal pardoned a wife beater because the wife was being unfaithful. They painted Portugal as a land of savages that don't respect women. They "forgot" to point out two things:

a) This judge pardoned a women last year who shot her husband (attempted homicide, in this case) because he was being unfaithful. So his deal was against adultery and not against women.

b) There was rightly an huge uproar by everyone, and the judge was stripped of his powers and put on trial (which is still going on and it's still one of the hottest topics in the news these days).

The Guardian wrote like this is "business as usual here". But well, I like the comments on The Guardian's football news, so that's why i still go there.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:38 
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RuySan wrote:
Of course not, because rape is rape and rape is terrible. But rape isn't what this is about.

I suspect Portugal has a different definition of rape to the UK.

At least I hope so, because the UK definition is stupid.

[edit] Not sure about the wording, but it's "Rape only happens if a penis is inserted into someone"

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:40 
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Grim... wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Of course not, because rape is rape and rape is terrible. But rape isn't what this is about.

I suspect Portugal has a different definition of rape to the UK.

At least I hope so, because the UK definition is stupid.

[edit] Not sure about the wording, but it's "Rape only happens if a penis is inserted into someone"


I'm pretty sure grabbing a crotch and saying something mysoginistic isn't rape both here and in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_English_law

EDIT: Sorry, i misread your post. I just proved your idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:43 
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Ruysan... hypothetical question as you do not seem to feel that your experiences have affected you personally, but do you have a partner? I’m going to say a female partner, so that the machismo aspect is negated. If not a partner then sister or mother

What if you found out that for the past year their boss had been routinely intimidating them by grabbing them between the legs? How would you feel?

What then if they had been worried to speak out for a year because they’d be worried about the reaction, thinking people might say that they were making a fuss, that it wasn’t as important or a ‘real’ issue such as rape? Or were worried that people would call them spineless for making a fuss.

What if it only happened once? Would that make it different?

What if it was, instead of a sister or mother, your brother or father?

I’m only asking as I’m genuinely confused where a difference on culture lies between your feelings and, for example, mine, or Myp’s, or whoever’s. I’m having trouble understanding if it’s a difference in the way we see the importance of whether it happens to a man or woman, the ‘degree’ of the assault (and I’m using the example of grabbing the crotch as you had mentioned that)... or age, whether it’s a one off or repeated. I don’t know. I’m trying to understand your point of view (understand, not agree with) but can’t.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:48 
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Grim... wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Of course not, because rape is rape and rape is terrible. But rape isn't what this is about.

I suspect Portugal has a different definition of rape to the UK.

At least I hope so, because the UK definition is stupid.

[edit] Not sure about the wording, but it's "Rape only happens if a penis is inserted into someone"


Quote:
(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,

(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and

(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

(3) Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.

(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.


EDIT: there’s also the near identical offence of Assault by Penetration which carries the same sentence and doesn’t require a penis (natch).

EDIT 2: have a link in your face http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape ... _soa_1956/


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:51 
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Mimi, I understand your point, and yes, I have both a wife and a daughter.

But I think there's quite a difference between:

a) A man grabbing a women at work

b) A man grabbing another man in a bar

Because in the first case there's a relationship of power and one of those persons is abusing it. That difference might come from some sort of hierarchy, or just because one of them is a man and another is a women. This recalls something Rachel McAdams character said in true detective when someone asked why she was so obssessed over training martial arts and knife fighting ("because almost any man, at any time, can force himself on me"). We can go around beating the bush but that's a big difference, and someone will probably cries that i'm being discriminatory, but man can simply force a women in a way that a women can't force herself on a man (most of the times that his). It's simple mass/strenght/biology whatever you want to call it.

I remember when a man grabbed me in a bar, I was quite drunk, and so i have this problem that i'm overly friendly when i'm so, so i just told i'm not interested (and problem said something silly like "but it's ok, and i have gay friends" or something). There wasn't any unbalance in power.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:54 
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RuySan wrote:
Grim... wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Of course not, because rape is rape and rape is terrible. But rape isn't what this is about.

I suspect Portugal has a different definition of rape to the UK.

At least I hope so, because the UK definition is stupid.

[edit] Not sure about the wording, but it's "Rape only happens if a penis is inserted into someone"


I'm pretty sure grabbing a crotch and saying something mysoginistic isn't rape both here and in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_English_law

EDIT: Sorry, i misread your post. I just proved your idea.


Maybe not rape but it is sexual assault.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:01 
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Oh my fucking god.

:S

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:05 
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Jem wrote:
Oh my fucking god.

:S

I know. Back away from the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:09 
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Thank you, Ruysan. I think it’s important to try to understand, even if we can’t agree.

I am aware that I’m kind of bothering you a bit now, but for the sake of my own curiosity, I can understand that for you an imbalance of power seems like it makes things worse (which is why abuses against children or people unable to fend for themselves anger us so very much), so in the situation by the bar I assume you see yourself and the man that groped you as equally powerful. So, if it were not him that did it, but... say... a male boss at your work. Would that be different? What if it were a female boss abusing her position to grope you?

By power, is it the power of position or physical power?

Either way, can you see that some people, including men, might not be as powerful physically, socially, mentally able to deal with it in the way that you have and might need support, and that it’s detrimental to feeling able to seek support if you tell people they should just grow a spine and get over it?

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:53 
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Yes, I understand your post and I apologised before for being insensitive, as the man that was groped by kevin spacey could have been triggered by something that happened to him before or something, I don't know.

But as for your question. Yes, both me and the man were "equally powerful" in your words.

As for if the man was my Boss:

As I told earlier I had a boss that harrassed and threatened me constantly. He never groped me because it probably wasn't his thing. He was worse than any of the bosses on the Horrible Bosses movie. I could write a book about of all the things he did. Just to exemplify a situation with an unbalance of power.

The problem was that i found him to be thoroughly incompetent and dumb who could only solve problems by brute force and bully everyone. In a meeting with the whole team he started with his usual shit. I started contradicting him and making him a fool of himself, over and over. The meeting was the whole day. He started losing temper and it was such a shitshow. When the meeting was over one of my colleagues said "Thank you for saying that that we all wanted to say, he was asking for it". I said "Shame it had to be me that i'm still under contact instead of you, you coward piece of shit" (i guess i was still with the adrenaline high).

Next day I was fired. I'm not telling you this to say that how brave I was. What I think is that actors are so desperate to have careers that are afraid of speaking up like i was. I was just a Cleaning Machinery salesman. But it was a well paid job and Although i'm a highly skilled engineer with lots of experience, I had to be a salesmen because i was caught up in the global crisis. I ended up being unemployed for a year after that. Seriously, I just needed to get this of my chest. Maybe this is why I'm so resentful. These people are afraid to speak up for fear of losing their jobs when they live in wealthy countries with low unemployment rates when I had to lose my job in a terrible time for speaking up and now earn only 1000€/month working as an engineer which leaves pretty much 0€ at the end of the month.

Thank you for this psychoanalysis session. I used to do this with my dog when she was alive, seems like i need another dog.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:54 
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RuySan wrote:
He was worse than any of the bosses on the Horrible Bosses movie.

Full circle!

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:55 
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RuySan wrote:
Yes, I understand your post and I apologised before for being insensitive, as the man that was groped by kevin spacey could have been triggered by something that happened to him before or something


This bothers me. You're suggesting that being groped isn't enough and it has to be linked to a past trauma in order to be relevant.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:56 
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DavPaz wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Yes, I understand your post and I apologised before for being insensitive, as the man that was groped by kevin spacey could have been triggered by something that happened to him before or something

This bothers me. You're suggesting that being groped isn't enough and it has to be linked to a past trauma in order to be relevant.

It bothers me that people seem to be telling RuySan how victimised he should feel about his own experiences.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:59 
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edit: Never mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 13:00 
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It's fine, psychologists are expensive. I should come here more often.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 13:00 
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Grim... wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Yes, I understand your post and I apologised before for being insensitive, as the man that was groped by kevin spacey could have been triggered by something that happened to him before or something

This bothers me. You're suggesting that being groped isn't enough and it has to be linked to a past trauma in order to be relevant.

It bothers me that people seem to be telling RuySan how victimised he should feel about his own experiences.

This is not the issue. It is his dismissal of ANYONE ELSE who has been victimised that is the problem. Surely you can see that?

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 13:03 
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I mean, maybe you should mention that then?

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 13:04 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Grim... wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Yes, I understand your post and I apologised before for being insensitive, as the man that was groped by kevin spacey could have been triggered by something that happened to him before or something

This bothers me. You're suggesting that being groped isn't enough and it has to be linked to a past trauma in order to be relevant.

It bothers me that people seem to be telling RuySan how victimised he should feel about his own experiences.

This is not the issue. It is his dismissal of ANYONE ELSE who has been victimised that is the problem. Surely you can see that?


"ANYONE ELSE????"

Seriously?


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 13:08 
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Grim... wrote:
I mean, maybe you should mention that then?

Err, I did?
I wrote:
Can you now perhaps see that different things upset different people and you were wrong to dismiss people who have suffered trauma as needing to grow a spine?

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 13:09 
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RuySan wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Grim... wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Yes, I understand your post and I apologised before for being insensitive, as the man that was groped by kevin spacey could have been triggered by something that happened to him before or something

This bothers me. You're suggesting that being groped isn't enough and it has to be linked to a past trauma in order to be relevant.

It bothers me that people seem to be telling RuySan how victimised he should feel about his own experiences.

This is not the issue. It is his dismissal of ANYONE ELSE who has been victimised that is the problem. Surely you can see that?


"ANYONE ELSE????"

Seriously?

Anyone who has suffered trauma from unwanted sexual contact could very easily read your posts and decide you are very unsympathetic. Perhaps you should re-read them and see if you can see why that might be.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 13:11 
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I still think writing about it online shouldn't be the way to do it. You are still fixated on the idea that accusers never lie.


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