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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:59 
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Is that a standard practise? I'd have expected a flat rate payment for the music for the game and then everyone, including Llamasoft, getting shares of the soundtrack sales. Not that I know shit about this kind of thing.


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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 13:03 
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Bamba wrote:
Is that a standard practise? I'd have expected a flat rate payment for the music for the game and then everyone, including Llamasoft, getting shares of the soundtrack sales. Not that I know shit about this kind of thing.

I suspect Minter pleaded poverty and artists agreed to do it out of goodwill because of who he is.

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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 0:40 

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It's not the standard way of doing things, no. But then there are advantages to the music happening the way it did...

1: Llamasoft get the music for free, with the obvious benefits that entails

2: Lots more people get to be on the soundtrack than ever would have been if it were commercially managed

3: People get a chance they'd not necessarily have had were they competing with more established artists with better representation in this department. This is the important one, especially for n00bs like me. Whatever shitty flat rate I'd have been paid isn't worth as much as being on there in the first place, in terms of doors it opens.

4: Everyone contributing is doing so for the love of it, some of whom got into computer music precisely because of the last album. So it's important in non-career ways, too.

5: The OST does ok and we all get something for it.

Now, obviously there will be people criticising Jeff for not paying the artists and that's a natural reaction. Truth is I've had a tough time trying to get some of them to charge for the music in the first place, let alone accept their share of the proceeds. There are some obsequious comments about from certain people, effectively saying people are lucky to have the privilege of being on the game, and that's bullshit, but for the most part the majority of artists are both happy with whatever the OST makes and glad to be involved in what is for some of us quite a big release, without the baggage of it being 'a job'. Besides, for many hobby musicians the last thing they want is the financial complications that come with a bit too much profit.

We're not starving full-time musicians and the OST is there to buy for anyone who wants a FLAC of the thing because it's what they are into, not to keep my hypothetical kids in beans on toast. If I wanted to make my money back on the kit I bought to finish that song, I'd be insisting it went for a fiver, minimum and I'd be promoting it properly, not posting links on a few forums. As an aside, the stuff I've been doing with Beercave Games is not paid either... this track started out for one of his games, and Beerman effectively rejected it because the game I wrote it for didn't need music!

Not giving the OST away for free was, for my part, important in that a large album of very good music for the genre damn well should have some value attached to it, it undermines the whole concept of musicians getting paid if you don't ask for something. I'm happy for anyone who wants to torrent it to do so if they can't afford the £3 and my PM inbox is always open on here for those who need it ;)

As a rabble-rousing trade union officer I'd be the first to tell Jeff to fuck off if it wasn't a pleasant and agreeable arrangement for me and everyone else involved. Some of the people who've become involved since the work was done have conspired to make it feel like I should be paid for it - and handsomely - but neither of the guys at Llamasoft are amongst them.



tl;dr It's fine and I acknowledge that it's an out of the ordinary situation but it suits all parties in various ways and my sense of TRUE LEFTY JUSTICE hasn't been offended. There may be fawning sycophants about but they aren't a factor, nor has anyone been taken advantage of, unless you think that it's impossible for it not to be the case if tracks go in a game unpaid for, in which case there's not much I can say.


/edit forgot to say, I still own my track as well, all right reserved. If it'd gone via more usual channels, I'd probably not.


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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 13:00 
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This hasn't clicked with me yet, plus the friends leaderboards is all over the shop. Not impressed really.

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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 17:39 
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How can you do a leaderboard wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 17:40 
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Grim... wrote:
How can you do a leaderboard wrong?


Its sorted in alphabetical order instead of score (with no filters to change it)


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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 17:42 
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zaphod79 wrote:
Grim... wrote:
How can you do a leaderboard wrong?


Its sorted in alphabetical order instead of score (with no filters to change it)

8)

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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 19:31 
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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 20:39 
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That isn't technically a leader board.

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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 20:42 
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It's killed any enthusiasm I had for trying to do well at it, I have to admit.

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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 20:58 
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Saturnalian wrote:
Say WHUT!?


The top 2 pages of my friends list scoreboard for classic mode

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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 21:14 
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Bizarre nailed online leaderboards with Geometry Wars 2 in 2008 - how can a game get it so wrong in 2014?

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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 21:25 
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That's daft. All you need is "friends" and your place in the world. End of.

This. Sentence.


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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 21:47 

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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iirc the explanation goes something like there was a choice between having scores quick or having scores sorted and they went for quick. In other tables, the feedback has been that scores don't appear quickly enough. Reasons are under NDA but LS have managed to do high score tables plenty well enough on Live and PC with their own back-end systems in the past.

I agree though, it's something I'd like to see sorted and I'm optimistic that it will be.


/edit They're aiming for a cumulative patch and it's on the list. NDA reigns supreme but the causes are being addressed. Humble apologies are offered. Weekends are not spend with feet up, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:48 
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Alphabetic was the only way I was going to get near the top!


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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:52 
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Dr Zoidberg wrote:
Alphabetic was the only way I was going to get near the top!


Then along came Aaron Aardvark...


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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 18:18 
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Downloaded TxK last night. It's great. Thoroughly recommended purchase if you have a PS Vita or can borrow a PS Vita from a sibling, etc. Worth buying a PS Vita specifically for? No, but that won't stop some people doing so, seeing as gamers bought Nuon DVD players just for Tempest 3000...


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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 18:19 
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If you've not bought TxK yet - better do it quick

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015- ... -txk-block

Quote:
ORIGINAL STORY: British game developer Jeff Minter has accused Atari of blocking the release of his shooter TxK on a raft of platforms, including PC and PlayStation 4.

TxK is a follow-on from cult Atari Jaguar shooter Tempest 2000, which Minter created in 1994 while working for Atari. Tempest 2000 was a remake of Dave Theurer's 1981 arcade game classic, Tempest.

TxK, which Minter calls a "distantly related sequel" to Tempest 2000, launched on PlayStation Vita to critical acclaim in February 2014. Martin Robinson wrote in his 9/10 review: "All you need to know right now is that TxK is Minter at his finest, and it's absolutely mint."

Sony supported the project, and even featured it as a PlayStation Plus title for September 2014. TxK ended up as one of Eurogamer's Games of 2014.

Despite the fact Minter is the creator of Tempest 2000, it appears the Atari of today - the company behind the upcoming RollerCoaster Tycoon World and a fitness mobile game - has taken issue with TxK expanding its audience.

In a series of tweets the clearly upset Minter accused Atari of becoming a "copyright troll", and said TxK for the PC, PS4, Oculus Rift, GearVR and Android platforms "will now never see the light of day".

According to Minter, Atari claimed he "must have stolen Atari secrets from the original creators to make TxK", and the soundtrack was "indistinguishable" from the soundtrack of Tempest 2000.

Minter also pointed to a number of Tempest clones already available on the App Store and Google Play store. Cyclone 2000, for example, even describes itself as an "Android clone of the Atari Jaguar game Tempest 2000, originally made by the brilliant Jeff Minter. Try now for a nice retro game feeling".

Where this leaves Minter, his development company Llamasoft and TxK remains to be seen. We've contacted both Minter and Atari for comment. At the time of publication TxK remains on sale on the PlayStation Store.



Updated

Quote:
This has been going on behind the scenes for a while now. I'd kept it on the down low all this time because I had hoped we could maybe work something out, maybe "Atari" would commission an officially licensed version from us; we made it clear we'd be willing to negotiate about that sort of thing.

I even thought maybe they might be interested in my doing updated versions of some of the other Atari IP. After all i do have a track record of doing decent reworkings of old games like theirs and I'd've really enjoyed a crack at some of those old things.

However they never gave an inch and just continued with threats and bullying. Specifically they had their lawyers present a number of legal accusations about a variety of things; we consulted a lawyer who told us that if we wanted to fight against it then it'd be expensive because we'd need to address separately each of the things they were accusing me of.

The accusations were addressed not only to Llamasoft as a company but also directed at me personally.

Basically most of it came down to "looks like Tempest 2000", and it included such gems as:

- in order to create TxK I must have had access to, and stolen secrets from, Atari's source code, in order to steal the work of the other people who worked on Tempest 2000. (I *wrote* the source code for Tempest 2000, and didn't need to refer to it at all to create TxK, even if I still had it. The only other people who worked on the game were Joby Woods who did bitmaps (TxK has no bitmaps apart from one 64x64 graduated dot) and the Imagitec musicians (TxK has neither a modplayer nor any of Imagitec's music). So I stole my own work out of my own brain I guess.
- The soundtrack to TxK sounds identical to the soundtrack of Tempest 2000. (In fact the TxK soundtrack is entirely original and highly acclaimed; it won a Develop award and went to #1 on Bandcamp).
- The player ship can jump. Apparently Atari owns jumping.
- There is an AI Droid in TxK. Yes there is, and there has been an AI Droid in almost every game I've made since Llamatron. Which I made 3 years before Tempest 2000. The AI Droid is a staple of my design style.
- I deliberately set out to cash in on Atari's copyrighted Tempest name (by giving my game a deliberately obscure name of TxK).
- I deliberately set out to cash in on Atari's stellar reputation by associating my game with their illustrious name. (I never mentioned Atari at all as the last thing I really wanted was for Llamasoft to be associated with the undead Atari responsible for turning Star Raiders into a fucking slot machine).

All abject bollocks, but set up legally so as to be expensive for anyone to contest. Even just going back and forth a few times with letters responding to their threats ended up running up a couple of grand in legal bills, and there is simply no way on God's earth I can afford any kind of a legal battle.

I think they thought I was somehow making loads and loads of money on the Vita version of TxK, I guess because it did garner excellent reviews and a bit of positive press. But the Vita isn't a massive market, TxK made back it's development advance and a bit more and that was it. They kept hassling us and eventually I sent them sales statements so that they could see for themselves that we weren't getting super rich out of it. I even tried to point out that if there was any serious money to be made out of it it would likely be from the ports we were making, and that we were willing to negotiate about obtaining "official" branding for, if it meant they could at least be released, but we were met with nothing more than intransigence.

Even after having shown them that, they are still trying to insist that I remove from sale Vita TxK (even though it's plainly at the end of its run now and only brings in a trickle these days) and sign papers basically saying I can never make a Tempest style game ever again. So no chance of releasing the ports.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were actually some kind of precedent set that determined how different a game had to be to be considered a different game legally? Well, it just so happens there is, and it involves Tempest 2000 and Atari! Do you remember there was a Playstation port of Tempest 2000 called "Tempest X"? I always wondered why the name was changed, and other little aspects of the gameplay were altered. years later I managed to chat online with the guy who did the port, and he told me that the changes were made "to reduce the royalty burden".

How so? Well, my original arrangement with Atari was that I was to receive a royalty on any ports of Tempest 2000. "Tempest X" was made exactly enough different that it would be legally considered a different game, cutting me out of any royalties.

Now Tempest X:

- was derived from my source code;
- had exactly the same soundtrack;
- used the same kind of powerup progression as Tempest 2000;
- had a changed name, some extra background effects, and some different web shapes;
- but was close enough to Tempest 2000 that *Tempest 2000 was available as a hidden unlockable by entering a specific word into the highscore table*.

(Furry friends will be amused to hear that that word was "yiff").

Yet now "Atari" claim that TxK is in fact *closer* legally to Tempest 2000 than Tempest X was.


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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:06 
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I don't really approve of corporations using their legal muscle to bully small developers like this, but if I'm honest after playing the game, it's almost exactly like Tempest. So I can see why they've done it.

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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:07 
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Future Warrior wrote:
I don't really approve of corporations using their legal muscle to bully small developers like this, but if I'm honest after playing the game, it's almost exactly like Tempest. So I can see why they've done it.


The other thing to consider here is that Atari themselves have been bankrupted so many times - the last 'sell off' was for a very small number of IP's (including Tempest) and was bought by a small consortium who are not interested in producing any games just suing anyone who makes something similar.

Some of their 'claims' in their emails are ludicrous (he copied the code / the soundtracks are identical / etc) , however they do have a point that Tempest is the obvious inspiration for TxK


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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:13 
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And the name is a nod, too. The 'T' obviously stands for Tempest!

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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:21 
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Future Warrior wrote:
And the name is a nod, too. The 'T' obviously stands for Tempest!


Fix - change the T to an L for Llama and the ship to a small Llama

LxK

Problem solved !


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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:32 
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xK, like 2K, like Tempest 2000 you mean?

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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:34 
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Our very own Governmentyard worked on some of the tunes in this game and he tweeted that he didn't copy any of them at all. I believe him.


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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 18:34 
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Future Warrior wrote:
Bizarre nailed online leaderboards with Geometry Wars 2 in 2008 - how can a game get it so wrong in 2014?


GW2 already from 2008? man i feel old

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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 21:44 
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Do the leader boards not work on this on Vita? Appaerntyl none of my friedns have scored any points!


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 Post subject: Re: TxK - from Llamasoft
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 0:24 
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Bobbyaro wrote:
Do the leader boards not work on this on Vita? Appaerntyl none of my friedns have scored any points!

The Space Giraffe leaderboards were wiped after patching. I wouldn't be surprised if it were the same here.

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