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Tabletop wargaming - nerdlinging to the max...
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Author:  Pundabaya [ Fri Jun 06, 2008 22:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Mr Chris wrote:

Anyone pissed off about their dried out paints - please do have a read of this little explanatory rant.


Except what this guy is saying has NOTHING to do with my paints being all dried up. As much as I hate to defend GW...

Author:  MrChris [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Morte wrote:
Mr Chris wrote:
I may have mentioned it earlier, but GW are swindling fucknuts.

Anyone pissed off about their dried out paints - please do have a read of this little explanatory rant.

EDIT - and, obviously - HAHAHAHHAH. You all fell into my nerdly trap. Noone can resist the lure of the gobsmackingly overpriced GW lead goodness. Or, for that matter, hundreds-of-pounds-per-vehicle Forgeworld goodness either.


Pah, GW became a money hungry whore when White Dwarf became a GW In House magazine circa 1990, this is very old news.


They weren't as bad as they are now, mind. Inflation really can't account for all of the difference in price between now and 15 years ago. You used to be able to get ace boxes of multi-part orks, Imperial Guard and Mk 6 Space marines containing 30 troops for 9.99. It's now, what, a tenner for 5 plastic multi part marines? Alright, they're better quality, but once you've got the moulds made that's your work done.

pundy wrote:
Except what this guy is saying has NOTHING to do with my paints being all dried up. As much as I hate to defend GW...


Oh? The ones I have that are mk 1 pots are still going even the best part of 20 years later. The screw top ones I've had from GW lasted perhaps a year.

What's the problem with yours?

Author:  Mr Dave [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 14:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

I had pretty much all the mk1 ones. When I went back to it years later, they had mk2s, and one or two of the mk1s had gone off.

Never seen the ones after that.

Author:  Pundabaya [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 14:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Mine were entirely MK1 and MK2, there were no screwcaps in among them. The old white tops had a design flaw, the hinge would become fatigued with heavy use, and the top would fall off. Not a massive problem (except when you put the wrong top on when you were done, d'oh!) but it tended to crack the lids after a while, because of how you put the tops back on in this state. Most of mine were either cracked or badly sealed in some way. I actually found another 10, 6 of which were salvageble, all colours that I didn't use very much.

Author:  Dimrill [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 15:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

I've just ordered 10 sponds worth of Vallejo paints using this colour chart for conversion.

Author:  Sinister Minister [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 15:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

I think we're all missing the most obvious point here: We need a venue for the inaugural BETEO twenty-a-side skirmishathon.

With beer.

Beards optional.

Author:  NervousPete [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 15:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

I used to go to this comics shop called Comicville, run by a really nice couple, in Huddersfield. They also had a Leeds branch. This was about twelve years ago. Anyway, they had the timmerity to stock non GW figures as well, and rival tabletop gaming brands. GW sent a bloke over who told them that if they kept selling rival products, they'd stop selling them stock. At the time GW accounted for half the floorspace. Happily, the lovely couple told them to fuck off and turned the floor space over to yet more comics, second and first hand vinyl records, awesome t-shirts and clothes, strange doo-hickeys and Mexican Day of the Dead junk.

I miss Comicville. Once Paul Daniels went in with Debbie McGee, and he started griping constantly about this practical jokes line ripping off his ideas. Complete wanker, but Debbie was very funny.

Scissor Sisters used to go there too. Nice people.

Author:  Pundabaya [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 15:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Mr Chris wrote:

They weren't as bad as they are now, mind. Inflation really can't account for all of the difference in price between now and 15 years ago. You used to be able to get ace boxes of multi-part orks, Imperial Guard and Mk 6 Space marines containing 30 troops for 9.99. It's now, what, a tenner for 5 plastic multi part marines? Alright, they're better quality, but once you've got the moulds made that's your work done.


I agree that the minis are overpriced, but it's not really fair to compare the new plastics to the old (fucking rubbish) plastics.

I bought a Space Marines tactical squad for 18 pounds. Shocking!

But how much would it have cost me 10 years ago, for models of a similar quality?

3x3 Space Marine blisters @ 4.99
1x 1 Devastator Marine @ 2.99
1x 1 Special Weapons Marine @ 2.50
1x1 Sargent @ (2.50- 2.99 depending on model.. call it 2.99)

Which would be £23.45. With 2 extra models, of course.

I think they used to do a metal tactical squad for 20 quid.

The other thing is that the placcy squad I bought includes far more options. As well as the tactical marine sprue, (which includes armour types etc.) you also get a space marine weapons sprue, which includes flamer, plasma gun and melta gun, chainswords, various pistols. Whereas, your options were much more limited if you bought the old metal stuff.

If you buy the plastic, you can have one tactical squad, or two combat squads. I think you might be able to scrape an assault combat squad out of the bits instead of a tactical combat squad.

Now, 18 quid for a Rhino? Fuck off! I remember when they were a fiver. Yeah, incredibly better quality, but its a Rhino. The most boring vehicle in the entire Imperium.

(Edited to add: Why am I defending the Evil Games Workshop?)

Author:  Morte [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 17:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

nervouspete wrote:
I used to go to this comics shop called Comicville, run by a really nice couple, in Huddersfield. They also had a Leeds branch. This was about twelve years ago. Anyway, they had the timmerity to stock non GW figures as well, and rival tabletop gaming brands. GW sent a bloke over who told them that if they kept selling rival products, they'd stop selling them stock. At the time GW accounted for half the floorspace. Happily, the lovely couple told them to fuck off and turned the floor space over to yet more comics, second and first hand vinyl records, awesome t-shirts and clothes, strange doo-hickeys and Mexican Day of the Dead junk.

I miss Comicville. Once Paul Daniels went in with Debbie McGee, and he started griping constantly about this practical jokes line ripping off his ideas. Complete wanker, but Debbie was very funny.

Scissor Sisters used to go there too. Nice people.


Oh, Oh, Oh...was that in the victorian Arcade near the train station? If so that was rather splendid...now there is only the very small Wargames Emporium on one of the upper floors.

Author:  MrChris [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 18:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Pundabaya wrote:
Mr Chris wrote:

They weren't as bad as they are now, mind. Inflation really can't account for all of the difference in price between now and 15 years ago. You used to be able to get ace boxes of multi-part orks, Imperial Guard and Mk 6 Space marines containing 30 troops for 9.99. It's now, what, a tenner for 5 plastic multi part marines? Alright, they're better quality, but once you've got the moulds made that's your work done.


I agree that the minis are overpriced, but it's not really fair to compare the new plastics to the old (fucking rubbish) plastics.


I think it is, though.

In both cases you've got plastic sprues with various options and bits and bobs - the old sprues had loads of bayonets, ammo pouches and extra guns and whatnot. In the old ones you had three times as many sprues, and roughly 3 times as much plastic, as you get now.

The only difference between then and now is that the new plastic models have a greater level of detail in the individual pieces. The only extra cost to that is the initial cost of making the prototype and having the mould built up.

Now, I can't believe that running your kits off of a more detailed mould triples the cost of the kits. Once you've had the mould made, all you're doing is pouring in plastic. Revell aeroplane kits, for instance, have several sprues of much better quality, far more detailed plastic pieces than GW make, and cost less for a decent sized plane than GW charge for 5 plastic marines.

I agree that there's no comparison between the old plastic GW kits and the new ones in terms of quality - the new ones are far better. However, I really do dispute the additional cost that comes from that additional level of detail.

GW charge more because they can - they've cornered the market in terms of visibility for fantasy and SF wargames. Yes, there are others, such as Void, Starship Troopers and so on, but although in some cases they're far superior in terms of game mechanics and value for money, they're much less well known. If you're a teenage kid going to get into wargaming, you're going to do something that you can get hold of from the local shop and that your mates have heard of. Which means GW and their ludicrously over priced, constantly revised, "oh, sorry, you also need to buy the book of guns, book of vehicles, and two codexes before you can actually make use of the 30 quid rulebook", piss take wargames.

Author:  Rodafowa [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 19:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Anyone know a good place to pick up fantasy/medieval miniatures these days? I've got the urge to do our Dark Ages party, so ideally I'd need a Norse-looking fella, a guy in chainmail with a morningstar, another one with short hair and a two-handed sword and a bloke in a hooded cloak.

Author:  MrChris [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 19:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Wargmes Foundry are pretty good.

Author:  MrChris [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 19:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Sinister Minister wrote:
I think we're all missing the most obvious point here: We need a venue for the inaugural BETEO twenty-a-side skirmishathon.

With beer.

Beards optional.

Ooooooh.

Just saw this.

This is a very, very good idea.

I have a bunch of unused 40k stuff I can break out and paint up for this. [/nerdgasm]

Author:  MaliA [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 20:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Mr Chris wrote:
Sinister Minister wrote:
I think we're all missing the most obvious point here: We need a venue for the inaugural BETEO twenty-a-side skirmishathon.

With beer.

Beards optional.

Ooooooh.

Just saw this.

This is a very, very good idea.

I have a bunch of unused 40k stuff I can break out and paint up for this. [/nerdgasm]


<twitches>

Author:  MrChris [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 20:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

You know you want to, mali. Sell your bike and buy some Forgeworld titans. Well, one.

Author:  MaliA [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 20:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

This would be a bad time to imply I have a strip lit attic with a couple of desks in it and a power supply and a spare five by two and a half feet table, which needs a hobby to fill it, wouldn't it?

Author:  Zardoz [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 20:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

I had GW miniatures in my hands in a Hobby shop in Preston today.

Very, very close to buying (if they'd have had some Nurgle stuff I'd have probably crumbled), but I put it all back.

I'll settle with looking at pictures and reminiscing. Far, far cheaper.

Author:  MrChris [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 20:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Or a very good time, Mali, depending on one's perspective.

5 by 2 1/2 is a bit small though - can you fit a 6 by 4 up there? Missus, etc.

Zardoz - you're never going to have spare money again, mate, so now's the time to make the most of it - and your window of opportunity is shrinking by the day..... :)

Author:  MaliA [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 20:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Mr Chris wrote:
Or a very good time, Mali, depending on one's perspective.

5 by 2 1/2 is a bit small though - can you fit a 6 by 4 up there? Missus, etc.

Zardoz - you're never going to have spare money again, mate, so now's the time to make the most of it - and your window of opportunity is shrinking by the day..... :)


It's got to fit through the attic door, so that's off. Soz.

Author:  MrChris [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 20:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

I intended to get round that at my parents place by using two trestle tables and then having six 2 by 2 sectional board pieces on top - this also means you can have some fixed scenery on the boards and still get variation in set-up.

I never got round to doing this but will be having a go at some point with our spare attic room.

Author:  MaliA [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 21:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Mr Chris wrote:
I intended to get round that at my parents place by using two trestle tables and then having six 2 by 2 sectional board pieces on top - this also means you can have some fixed scenery on the boards and still get variation in set-up.


All around to Mr Chris' Parents then.

Author:  Zardoz [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 21:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Mr Chris wrote:
Zardoz - you're never going to have spare money again, mate, so now's the time to make the most of it - and your window of opportunity is shrinking by the day..... :)


I know what you're saying but my head and heart are confirming that my 'pocket money' is for consoles and games, plus, I can get more value for money and enjoyment from building Gundam kits etc.

When are you buying a 360 Mr Chris?

Author:  Pundabaya [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 21:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Mr Chris wrote:

Now, I can't believe that running your kits off of a more detailed mould triples the cost of the kits. Once you've had the mould made, all you're doing is pouring in plastic. Revell aeroplane kits, for instance, have several sprues of much better quality, far more detailed plastic pieces than GW make, and cost less for a decent sized plane than GW charge for 5 plastic marines.


You're missing the point, yes, I know that the new plastics don't cost more to make, but that surely is irrelevant.

It used to be that the desirable army is one that is all metal (because the plastics were shite), but now that is not the case. The plastics have replaced pretty much all the troop models, and there are a few blister packs in each store. The only bad thing with that, is that there's no newcomer's option anymore.

If you compare the cost of the new plastics with the old metal, the prices haven't increased that much, at least for the basic troopers. (which, after all, is where the most expense will be for a standard army. Collecting an army isn't too bad compared with 10 years ago, price wise. (though some models do take the piss).

From the point of view of 'same materials, similar cost of labour' I can see your point, but at the end of the day, these aren't just models, there are intangibles attached to them.

Author:  Zardoz [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 21:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Pundabaya wrote:
(though some models do take the piss).


Infuckingdeed: Space Marine Commander £10

Author:  AceAceBaby [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 22:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

MaliA wrote:

It's got to fit through the attic door, so that's off. Soz.


That's why they invented hinges.

Author:  MaliA [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 22:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

AceAceBaby wrote:
MaliA wrote:

It's got to fit through the attic door, so that's off. Soz.


That's why they invented hinges.


That's why it's a "door", not a "cover".

Author:  AceAceBaby [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 22:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

I meant you can get something in there that's 4 or 5 feet wide if it is hinged. :munkeh:

Author:  Mr Russell [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 22:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

I think Ace meant hinges on the table you'll be hauling up there.

Author:  Mr Russell [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 22:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Hmm, I guess it doesn't tell you if someone else has posted since you started writing if you use the fast Reply box.

What he said.

Author:  NervousPete [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 0:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Morte wrote:
nervouspete wrote:
I used to go to this comics shop called Comicville, run by a really nice couple, in Huddersfield. They also had a Leeds branch. This was about twelve years ago. Anyway, they had the timmerity to stock non GW figures as well, and rival tabletop gaming brands. GW sent a bloke over who told them that if they kept selling rival products, they'd stop selling them stock. At the time GW accounted for half the floorspace. Happily, the lovely couple told them to fuck off and turned the floor space over to yet more comics, second and first hand vinyl records, awesome t-shirts and clothes, strange doo-hickeys and Mexican Day of the Dead junk.

I miss Comicville. Once Paul Daniels went in with Debbie McGee, and he started griping constantly about this practical jokes line ripping off his ideas. Complete wanker, but Debbie was very funny.

Scissor Sisters used to go there too. Nice people.


Oh, Oh, Oh...was that in the victorian Arcade near the train station? If so that was rather splendid...now there is only the very small Wargames Emporium on one of the upper floors.


Yes, it was! It moved three times. Once from Byram Arcade (train station one) to Imperial Arcade (oh ho! apt!) nearer the bus station, and then back again. And then that closed down and they moved to the Merrion Centre in Leeds. I haven't spoken to the owners Tony and Carol for five years now, wish I knew how they were getting on. Same with Adam and Amy who were the two incredibly cool underlings who DJ'd at Phono and the Fab Cafe. There were really good Comicville endorsed fancy dress nights there, including the one where I pulled dressed as Shawn from Shawn of the Dead. I worked the door also so I got to take my cricket bat in. Zombie head blatting fun! But yes, I miss them. *sniff* :'(

Author:  Pundabaya [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 0:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Zardoz wrote:
Pundabaya wrote:
(though some models do take the piss).


Infuckingdeed: Space Marine Commander £10


I was about to post to say 'well, you don't have to use the commander...' but I checked, and apparently, you do. Barstewards.

Author:  Derek Joists [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

I've skipped this thread, because I genuinely dare not read it. I mean, I have a social life, with beer and women, to think of. Stop it, all of you please!


Think of the, er, fat thirty-something dudes....

Author:  Dimrill [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 16:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Wahay! Just had a big clear out of my junk drawer behind my computer and found 2 chaos Obliteraters (value £12 each), an Iron Warriors Warsmith (£7) and an Emperor's Children Lord (£7). A Good Day.

Author:  MrChris [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 18:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Pundabaya wrote:
Mr Chris wrote:

Now, I can't believe that running your kits off of a more detailed mould triples the cost of the kits. Once you've had the mould made, all you're doing is pouring in plastic. Revell aeroplane kits, for instance, have several sprues of much better quality, far more detailed plastic pieces than GW make, and cost less for a decent sized plane than GW charge for 5 plastic marines.


You're missing the point, yes, I know that the new plastics don't cost more to make, but that surely is irrelevant.

It used to be that the desirable army is one that is all metal (because the plastics were shite), but now that is not the case. The plastics have replaced pretty much all the troop models, and there are a few blister packs in each store. The only bad thing with that, is that there's no newcomer's option anymore.

If you compare the cost of the new plastics with the old metal, the prices haven't increased that much, at least for the basic troopers.


Oh, I see your point and I agree, but unlike previously where you could have the metals for your characters and a few of the troops in each squad as the "specials", and pad out the rest with the various plastics, now all you've got is the expensive option. Made from, ironically enough, the cheaper material.

Have you got shares in GW or something? ;)

Author:  Ramsea [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 23:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Its pretty funny how this topic came up while FLIS and myself were in Manchester last week. As we walked by a Games-Workshop (we don't have them over here) we both had a bit of a chuckle about what kind of nerdy, sunlight avoiding, beardy, snorting type of people actually play these games.

Author:  Dimrill [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 23:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Play?! Nah. Paint, aye.

Author:  AceAceBaby [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 13:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Ramsea wrote:
Its pretty funny how this topic came up while FLIS and myself were in Manchester last week. As we walked by a Games-Workshop (we don't have them over here) we both had a bit of a chuckle about what kind of nerdy, sunlight avoiding, beardy, snorting type of people actually play these games.


You post on an internet forum. Just saying.

Author:  Zardoz [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 13:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Hmm...

Internet forum poster +30 Geek
It's predominantly a gaming forum + 20 Geek
Tabletop Wargaming thread + 70 Geek

Careful lads, careful.

Author:  Doctor Glyndwr [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 13:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Zardoz wrote:
Internet forum poster +30 Geek
It's predominantly a gaming forum + 20 Geek
Tabletop Wargaming thread + 70 Geek
Cool -- what can I get for 120 points?

Author:  Dimrill [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 13:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Erm. I go bird watching and like metal too, does that I'm an uber nerd? :nerd:

In fact, Meaty Angle likes trains too.

Author:  Zardoz [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 14:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

I fear then that it's too late.

Twitchers + 75 Geek
Trains +500 Geek

Author:  Doctor Glyndwr [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 14:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Dimrill wrote:
In fact, Meaty Angle likes trains too.
The stories I could tell... MS Flight Sim... Tokyo Bus Guide...

Author:  Cras [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 14:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

I must say that, given the amount of discussion in this thread, it is quite amusing that 91% of poll respondants said either "No, of course not. Tabletop wargamers are so nerdy they make PC fanboys look cool and studly" or "I used to, but then I discovered girls". Methinks some people are in denial.

Author:  Zardoz [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 14:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

richardgaywood wrote:
Cool -- what can I get for 120 points?

Image

Author:  Doctor Glyndwr [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 14:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Craster wrote:
"I used to, but then I discovered girls"
You didn't offer "I used to and probably would get withdrawal shakes from it if someone created a nine page thread full of pictures of £500 Titan models". That one might have gotten a few votes.

Author:  Dimrill [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 14:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

I originally voted 3, but then thanks to That Bastard Pundy, I'm now a number 2. fnarr etc.

Author:  kalmar [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 14:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

I was option 4. But it's OK, I don't really want to know.

Author:  Pundabaya [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 19:23 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Similarly, I was option 3, but am now option 2, because of that cunt Dimmers.

Author:  Pundabaya [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 19:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

richardgaywood wrote:
Zardoz wrote:
Internet forum poster +30 Geek
It's predominantly a gaming forum + 20 Geek
Tabletop Wargaming thread + 70 Geek
Cool -- what can I get for 120 points?


About 40 Imperial Guard troopers.

Author:  Dimrill [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 19:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: Tabletop wargaming - a quick survey

Laughs at nerd joke! :nerd:

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