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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:13 
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Gogmagog

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Future Warrior wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Men do not despise a thief if he steals to satisfy himself when he is hungry.

They do not despise it but it 'sits uncomfortably' with them.


Dob't get me wrong, I think the fine was way too high and draconian. And bwnwgits anctopns are sonwwhat arbitary.I feel sympathy for the woman who felt that the only chance of food was to steal. Despite this, I feel that there is a danger of implicitly condoning "stealing because you are hungry". If that is considered acceptable, then the lines have to be redrawn. Who is it then acceptable to steal from? How hungry do you have to be? It is this part I am uncomfortable with.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:47 
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MaliA wrote:
Future Warrior wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Men do not despise a thief if he steals to satisfy himself when he is hungry.

They do not despise it but it 'sits uncomfortably' with them.


Dob't get me wrong, I think the fine was way too high and draconian. And bwnwgits anctopns are sonwwhat arbitary.I feel sympathy for the woman who felt that the only chance of food was to steal. Despite this, I feel that there is a danger of implicitly condoning "stealing because you are hungry". If that is considered acceptable, then the lines have to be redrawn. Who is it then acceptable to steal from? How hungry do you have to be? It is this part I am uncomfortable with.


I think I can see what you mean. Maybe it is discomfort with the situation, rather them an the help that this woman has recurred, and could perhaps be tackled by an amendment to the law that does indeed re-draw the line to say where absolute hunger is proven then theft to nourish and stay alive, within the bounds of a reasonable amount of food for the situation, will be overlooked and the circumstances that have lead to this be enquires into to prevent re-occurrence.

If this were down to the defendant not using the provisions attributed to them (food vouchers misappropriated, food bank or meal provisions not attended due to misbehaviour, etc) then this would be taken into account into the negative, also.

I'm not sure that would work, simply because again you are asking people to use common sense and reason rather than assigning situations and people to neat little boxes, but it would allow for the real situation of someone in dire need stealing for sustainance.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:54 
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I tell you what could work:

The police who arrested her could have let her go with a caution. It's 75p. SEVENTY FIVE PENCE.

How many minor offences are dealt with by caution where the costs of prosecution are disproportionate to the offence being committed? A shit ton. Statistically speaking, that is.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:11 
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Saturnalian wrote:
I tell you what could work:

The police who arrested her could have let her go with a caution. It's 75p. SEVENTY FIVE PENCE.

How many minor offences are dealt with by caution where the costs of prosecution are disproportionate to the offence being committed? A shit ton. Statistically speaking, that is.

Absolutely, but we're not sure of how things like this work and the situation: whether it was her first offence or 100th, whether there is anything other than the theft that would have weighed against her judgement. As with most news stories there may be other circumstances not given that provide more context, and it may be that these have either a hard and fast law that this must be prosecuted against or that she was on a 'one more offence and...' From previous problems.

There must be more to the story (as in why were her benefits sanctioned in the first place) but we don't know the background. So yes, I think most would agree with you, but the courts may differ in approach due to other considerations we are not party to.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:21 
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Saturnalian wrote:
I tell you what could work:

The police who arrested her could have let her go with a caution. It's 75p. SEVENTY FIVE PENCE.

How many minor offences are dealt with by caution where the costs of prosecution are disproportionate to the offence being committed? A shit ton. Statistically speaking, that is.


It's a crime, she should be charged for it, in my view. However, I think the courts have the leeway to then not levy a punishment on her as a result. Of course you're then into the area of wondering how much public expense is worthwhile for a 75p crime.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:25 
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Gogmagog

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Mimi wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Future Warrior wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Men do not despise a thief if he steals to satisfy himself when he is hungry.

They do not despise it but it 'sits uncomfortably' with them.


Dob't get me wrong, I think the fine was way too high and draconian. And bwnwgits anctopns are sonwwhat arbitary.I feel sympathy for the woman who felt that the only chance of food was to steal. Despite this, I feel that there is a danger of implicitly condoning "stealing because you are hungry". If that is considered acceptable, then the lines have to be redrawn. Who is it then acceptable to steal from? How hungry do you have to be? It is this part I am uncomfortable with.


I think I can see what you mean. Maybe it is discomfort with the situation, rather them an the help that this woman has recurred, and could perhaps be tackled by an amendment to the law that does indeed re-draw the line to say where absolute hunger is proven then theft to nourish and stay alive, within the bounds of a reasonable amount of food for the situation, will be overlooked and the circumstances that have lead to this be enquires into to prevent re-occurrence.

If this were down to the defendant not using the provisions attributed to them (food vouchers misappropriated, food bank or meal provisions not attended due to misbehaviour, etc) then this would be taken into account into the negative, also.

I'm not sure that would work, simply because again you are asking people to use common sense and reason rather than assigning situations and people to neat little boxes, but it would allow for the real situation of someone in dire need stealing for sustainance.


I think "starving - needed food" should be used to mitigate the offence, not as a defence. It is still a crime that needs some punitive action albeit at the lower end if the scale.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:30 
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As to comments about Court discretion from Meems & Cras, no. Once it is at court the mags have no discretion over whether to punish at all (if found guilty or pleaded guilty) or the minimum punishment handed down (I think it was in the original article the specifics of the minimum fine), so no, you're both wrong that the courts can somehow magic these cases away upon hearing all the circumstances. The courts would simply say "that's nice. Fine X amount payable in 21 days or whatever." It should never have got that far in the first place. Someone either at the police and/or at the CPS (maybe being led by whichever store wanted her prosecuted "to the full extent of the law" as they often put in their shops) thought that it would be a valuable exercise in pissing away tax payers money and clogging the criminal system with this petty bullshit when there are already 80+ courts closing (thanks Tories!) and massive delays of months to hear cases.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:33 
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Saturnalian wrote:
Someone either at the police and/or at the CPS (maybe being led by whichever store wanted her prosecuted "to the full extent of the law" as they often put in their shops) thought that it would be a valuable exercise in pissing away tax payers money and clogging the criminal system with this petty bullshit when there are already 80+ courts closing (thanks Tories!) and massive delays of months to hear cases.

Clearly the real lesson here is the CPS has too much money. Swingeing cuts for all!


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:38 
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Saturnalian wrote:
As to comments about Court discretion from Meems & Cras, no. Once it is at court the mags have no discretion over whether to punish at all (if found guilty or pleaded guilty) or the minimum punishment handed down (I think it was in the original article the specifics of the minimum fine), so no, you're both wrong that the courts can somehow magic these cases away upon hearing all the circumstances. The courts would simply say "that's nice. Fine X amount payable in 21 days or whatever." It should never have got that far in the first place. Someone either at the police and/or at the CPS (maybe being led by whichever store wanted her prosecuted "to the full extent of the law" as they often put in their shops) thought that it would be a valuable exercise in pissing away tax payers money and clogging the criminal system with this petty bullshit when there are already 80+ courts closing (thanks Tories!) and massive delays of months to hear cases.


That's annoying. I didn't think we had mandatory minimums for stuff like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:45 
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U
Saturnalian wrote:
As to comments about Court discretion from Meems & Cras, no. Once it is at court the mags have no discretion over whether to punish at all (if found guilty or pleaded guilty) or the minimum punishment handed down (I think it was in the original article the specifics of the minimum fine), so no, you're both wrong that the courts can somehow magic these cases away upon hearing all the circumstances. The courts would simply say "that's nice. Fine X amount payable in 21 days or whatever." It should never have got that far in the first place. Someone either at the police and/or at the CPS (maybe being led by whichever store wanted her prosecuted "to the full extent of the law" as they often put in their shops) thought that it would be a valuable exercise in pissing away tax payers money and clogging the criminal system with this petty bullshit when there are already 80+ courts closing (thanks Tories!) and massive delays of months to hear cases.


I didn't suggest that the courts could magic away fines(?)

What I said was that I was t sure if there was any discretion around the case that could have been levied or if there were prior circumstances, and not at specifically court level anyway: this could be at police, CPS or court level where it may be applicable either in issuing the punishment or deciding to press charges, wherever. Again, though, she might be the town's most wanted shoplifter for all we know*, and this might have been her last chance as far as police, etc were concerned.

*I'm not suggesting that she is a serial offender, but again there will be so much background we are unaware of that we aren't really in a position to say whether the fine is correct in totality if, earlier that day, the same person had stolen a hairdryer, or was known for handling stolen goods, etc.

If the report stated it was her first offence, etc, it would seem massively disproportionate to me, but who knows? I don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:47 
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They've got tariffs for all the offences. Do this get between X & Y and pay A, B & C.

I'm amused that the victim in this case got a £20 victim surcharge. Probably due to all the inconvenience of prosecuting someone for stealing some mars bars. Tch.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:00 
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Louisa Sewell, 32, Comberton Road, Kidderminster

Louise Sewell, 32, Comberton Road, Kidderminster

Not conclusive that it is the same person, no. And I still disagree with the fine received if this woman was genuinely so hungry that she simply needed to eat (for which we have her word), but really I do understand that sometimes prosecutors, police, courts etc have access to information above what we have, such as prior cases and convictions, such as the information as to why this woman's benefits were sanctioned in the first place, as well as many other things.

In my own conclusion:
1) I don't think this case should have gone to court.
2) But I accept that I really don't know the whole story and there may have ben an obligation o take it to court due to previous offences.
3) I also acknowledge that we don't know the background of why the woman was in this position (why her benefits were sanctioned).
4) We only have the press reports which will pick and choose facts for a story, obviously.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 13:01 
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Maybe Stu is being so nice to her because she was stealing the Mars Bars to make his famous sandwich.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 13:25 
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I had no idea that you could even buy four Mars bars for 75p. I thought that they cost about that much each, now.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 13:36 
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It's probably one of those pound shop type deals where they're all a bit smaller than the proper size ones.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 13:39 
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Also, Heron Foods.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 13:44 
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DavPaz wrote:
Also, Heron Foods.


Nah, they prefer fish.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 13:54 
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markg wrote:
It's probably one of those pound shop type deals where they're all a bit smaller than the proper size ones.

Yes, that's probably very much part of the price point, still quite impressive, though.

I've not heard of Heron Foods, but I assume they are a bit like that Farmfoods place. I think we've been in there twice to get milk. The same group of little lads were in there both times, openly stealing. The second time they were shoving an entire massive frozen turkey into a giant rucksack. The turkey was bigger than the lad carrying it, like some strange Dickensian parody. The staff didn't care, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 13:58 
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I've always bemoaned that chocolate bars have been getting smaller over the ears and then I heard some guy at some institution (I can't remember which) who was bragging about how they had successfully managed to reduce portion sizes over the years. So now you know it was that shit who was responsible for the smaller sized everything at a greater cost. It's like the fat tax has already been implemented.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 14:05 
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Saturnalian wrote:
I've always bemoaned that chocolate bars have been getting smaller over the ears and then I heard some guy at some institution (I can't remember which) who was bragging about how they had successfully managed to reduce portion sizes over the years. So now you know it was that shit who was responsible for the smaller sized everything at a greater cost. It's like the fat tax has already been implemented.


It is called value engineering .

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 14:14 
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This morning on the radio it was called a diabetic epidemic.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 14:41 
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Saturnalian wrote:
This morning on the radio it was called a diabetic epidemic.


Yes we are contagious.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:13 
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Gogmagog

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Saturnalian wrote:
I tell you what could work:

The police who arrested her could have let her go with a caution. It's 75p. SEVENTY FIVE PENCE.

How many minor offences are dealt with by caution where the costs of prosecution are disproportionate to the offence being committed? A shit ton. Statistically speaking, that is.


MEANWHILE IN BRADFORD

Quote:
although we have clear CCTV footage, the police come back and say the value of the products taken is not enough for them to take it any further.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:05 
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I wonder if there'd be any legal ramifications by, on the back of the publicity garnered by that story, the shop published the CCTV footage online (specifically Facebook) of all the incidents of theft by these kids?

Local residents would surely recognise them and the news get back to the parents (especially as people hate takes of police inaction), but that might invite more trouble from the parents themselves, depending on what kind of people they are. And I'm not sure what legal issues there might be in releasing CCTV footage, especially of minors. Hmm...

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 17:29 
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15k now.

And one feels the Independent doesn't realise he's not a real reverend.

Independent

Quote:
The Reverend Stuart Campbell, who lives over 90 miles away in Bath, has set up an Indiegogo fundraising page as a “small gesture of solidarity” to help her pay the fines.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 21:39 
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Findus Fop wrote:
15k now.

And one feels the Independent doesn't realise he's not a real reverend.

Independent

Quote:
The Reverend Stuart Campbell, who lives over 90 miles away in Bath, has set up an Indiegogo fundraising page as a “small gesture of solidarity” to help her pay the fines.



He's a "church leader" apparently :

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/pe ... ed-6256306


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 22:12 
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Hahahahahaha!

HAHAHAHA!

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 22:13 
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Someone should give the papers links to his other words of inspiration, godly as they are.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 13:23 
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BertyBasset wrote:
Stu set this up yesterday :

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-sm ... ity#/story

That's a nice thing isn't it ?

Ha!

A nice thing would have been paying the money himself. But no, get the daft nationalist cunts to pay for it and he doesn't have to put a penny in and gets all the credit anyway. Genius! More money for his own mars bars. What a saint.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 23:07 

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 22:17 
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I forgot about this - how vain

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I have no recollection making this thread and it's 8 years old and rocking. It even has a post by Cavey a page or so back that I thoroughly agree with. Nuts.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 23:01 

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:17 
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Mimi wrote:

I've not heard of Heron Foods, but I assume they are a bit like that Farmfoods place. I think we've been in there twice to get milk. The same group of little lads were in there both times, openly stealing. The second time they were shoving an entire massive frozen turkey into a giant rucksack. The turkey was bigger than the lad carrying it, like some strange Dickensian parody. The staff didn't care, though.


you're sure the Turkey wasn't stealing the lad?

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:33 
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Still laughing at 'local church leader'.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:11 
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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:53 
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Holy shit there was a lot of anger yesterday!

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:30 
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lmao

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 13:22 
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Sturgeon's slapdown of online trolling made the BBC News website.

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Ms Sturgeon did not make reference to any one tweet or tweeter.

However, in one strand the independence-supporter tweeting as Wings Over Scotland questioned the right of the author JK Rowling to support the Scotland team because she helped fund the pro-Union Better Together campaign.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 13:24 
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What a colossal prick.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 13:44 
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Mr Kissyfur wrote:
What a colossal prick.


Most of the people I grew up with on the internet so to speak have all really changed and grown up and matured. You should have seen Hearthly at his best..

But yes, they've all really grown up now, formed their own lives and moved forward.

Stu on the other hand? hasn't changed one bit from the first time I ever came across his rantings on the internet well over a decade ago. He's still, as you say, a colossal prick.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 13:49 
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People change because of people.

I'm just saying.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 14:22 
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I think regardless of who they know most people generally get a bit less arrogant as they get older don't they? I mean it's fairly normal to go around thinking you're especially special and clever when you're fifteen or so but it's not really an appealing quality in an adult. It also leads you to some erroneous conclusions if you decide that anyone who ever disagrees with you is wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 14:26 
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markg wrote:
I think regardless of who they know most people generally get a bit less arrogant as they get older don't they? I mean it's fairly normal to go around thinking you're especially special and clever when you're fifteen or so but it's not really an appealing quality in an adult. It also leads you to some erroneous conclusions if you decide that anyone who ever disagrees with you is wrong.


His sheer will power impresses me.

How you could be a prick for so long without ever having one of those look in the mirror moments and a fucking good cringe is beyond me.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 21:18 
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I was calling him an enormous fucking prick long before it was fashionable. To think a lot of you used to give him money to not write shitty articles about video games. Baffling.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 21:23 
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The Mensch has caught on to the fact that this brave patriotic Scot loves Scotland so much that he lives in Bath, meanwhile Stu is acting like he's the poor victim against the might of the world's billionaires. A true people's hero.

And to think this dicksplash once called me a ticking timebomb. This is serious popcorn fodder.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 21:31 
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INFINITE POWAH

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He thinks Rowling was "rude" to him, after he told her to fuck off out of Scotland?

It's a bit sad, really. But funny.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 22:17 
SupaMod
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Jeeesus

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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 23:47 
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I think I'm really quite pleased the "no" vote won because I imagine that really got under Stu's skin.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:15 
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DavPaz wrote:
People change because of people.

I'm just saying.

I agree! For example, if you take someone who's unpleasant and give them an army of nodding sycophants with deep pockets, it makes them more unpleasant.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Nice about Rev Stu thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:40 
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As this is the being nice thread, I'd just like to say that being dissed by a celebrity is a 'win' in my book. But trolling them is a self-inflicted wound, so -4 points for the Rev.

I'm hoping that in a future straight-to-DVD 'Harry Potter and the obvious cash-in' there's a short interlude where a grumpy Scottish priest gets mauled by sadistic bears.


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