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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:19 
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But that's the problem with the way democracy works - no-one cares about long-term.

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:24 
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Quote:
In a leaked letter, George Osborne says renewables are too expensive and suggests expanding plans for gas-fired generation.

Luckily, we have an infinite supply of gas, so this is a great idea, rather than rapidly increasing our usage of wind (having potentially more wind power than Germany), solar (which could be 'forced' on all new builds and rapidly added to many existing properties) and tidal (what with being an island surrounded by strong tides). Gnh. About the only thing they are getting right is nuclear, although that should be more of a back-up than a primary source, and even then it'll be 'owned' by the Chinese.


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:25 
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Grim... wrote:
But that's the problem with the way democracy works - no-one cares about long-term.


It's definitely a problem with the way our parliamentary democracy works. There are definite changes that could be made to our system to reduce the effect - longer parliamentary terms, abolish the whip, only permitting people to be MPs for a single term, just off the top of my head.

The way it's set up right now, re-election is the top priority. And that's broken and wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:35 
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Craster wrote:
only permitting people to be MPs for a single term
That'll just force people to get their name in lights even more rashly.

Anyone who wants to be a politician should be shot, people should just kind of end up there by their choices. No career politicians would be a good starting point. And no being allowed to be on the board of multinationals before, during or after. And none of that "quarter mil per speech" shit either. And quangos and so on are out too; if you're not good enough to keep the job you were elected to do, you're done. And no Lords-as-MPs, that's just a stupid a idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:41 
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metalangel wrote:
Don't confuse a scientific theory with the more colloquial or philosphical use.

And anyway... the current sea level is about the lowest it's ever been, ever, in geological history. Technically, the earth could be considered still in an ice age and this is an interglacial period.

You could argue that we just have the misfortune to have become self-aware at this low point and thus consider it being that low to be 'normal'.

However you look at it, we're just along for the ride on this planet. The only thing in our favour is that, if we were to stop killing each other over whose magical sky daddy is best for a moment, we could get spread our eggs across multiple baskets. The planet is going to do what it likes and while it's intelligence that could save us, our stupidity is distracting us.


:this:

Also, what others have said, even supposing that there's even anything in it at all (which I personally doubt): the whole notion that little old insignificant us (the UK) should unilaterally cripple its already wounded economy to act as a 'moral example' to China and India, let alone a whole bunch of other secondary, Second World/developing economies around the globe, is just laughable nonsense IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:52 
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<covers head and runs for it>


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:05 
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Trooper wrote:
<covers head and runs for it>

Like Cavey's grandchildren will no doubt have to do when the world starts collapsing ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:15 
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Captain Caveman wrote:
Also, what others have said, even supposing that there's even anything in it at all (which I personally doubt)
You think climate change isn't happening, or you think it's not man-made? And what are you basing that on, in the face of very strong international scientific agreement that it is happening and it is at least mostly man-made?

Quote:
the whole notion that little old insignificant us (the UK) should unilaterally cripple its already wounded economy to act as a 'moral example' to China and India, let alone a whole bunch of other secondary, Second World/developing economies around the globe, is just laughable nonsense IMO.
This, of course, is exactly the thinking that dooms us. If the worst case scenario turns out to be correct, we're in a prisoner's dilemma where everyone is motivated to act but no-one is motivated to act first. And off to hell in a handbasket humanity goes, but at least we get to hold the handle on the way down.

Or we choose to hope that the worst case won't happen, and we do nothing. What's that saying? Something about hoping for the best, but planning for the worst...?


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:16 
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Out of interest, the UK kicks out 8.5 tonnes of CO2 per capita, compared to China's 5.3 and India's incredible 1.4, so yes, we would be setting a rather good example.

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:16 
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Note I'm not saying it's a bad idea for humanity, as a whole, to curb its collective consumption of finite global resources here. I'm simply saying that given the current 'world order' (or lack of it), our systems of governance and a total lack of collectivism, it seems hardly appropriate to me that the UK in particular should shoot itself in the foot, for what is to me at least highly dubious science, when apart from anything else, the very notion that such a gesture would be met with anything other than deaf ears at best and outright derision/being taken advantage of at worst, is a bit silly.

Whether the global warming brigade are right or wrong (and personally I think they're wrong, see MetalAngel's earlier post), or somewhere in between, actually makes no difference at all in any pragmatic sense. Personally, I think humanity is pretty much doomed anyway in the medium to long term, with or without climatological assistance.

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:19 
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China's acting first and "the West" doesn't seem to be noticing - it's building housing for billions of people that don't exist and developing less-unsustainable power sources for itself while coal, oil and our endless demand for cheap shit fund them.

When the rest of us are crying 'whoops, apocalypse!' because we've no energy, no skills, no money and no plan, they'll be laughing. At us. And offering to provide us with energy and skills to produce cheap shit in dangerous conditions for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:21 
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Captain Caveman wrote:
the whole notion that little old insignificant us (the UK) should unilaterally cripple its already wounded economy to act as a 'moral example' to China and India, let alone a whole bunch of other secondary, Second World/developing economies around the globe, is just laughable nonsense IMO.

I agree: doing this as a 'moral example' is idiotic, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing it.

The way I see it, we have two choices in the long term. The first is we invest heavily, much like the Germans have, and become as self-sufficient in fuel as possible, thereby reducing our imports significantly. The second is governments continue to put off the investment or even go back to relying on fossil fuels that are running low and becoming increasingly expensive, thereby screwing the general public (who'll soon be staring in disbelief at £2/litre petrol and insanely high gas/electricity bills) and ensuring we're forever reliant on the Russians and others. I'd rather keep the money within the country rather than subsidise others (same goes for the trains), but there you go. (One 'third way' that's quite interesting is the possible deal with Iceland for thermal power, but my brain kinds of goes FWUMP when I consider the feasibility of that idea.)


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:21 
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Anyway, we're not going to agree on this one guys - I'm on a family hols at the moment (just doing a bit of work ;) ). I'm going to globally warm myself by the pool now, mini calved ice bergs in a glass of V&T. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:23 
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Grim...'s life hints #64: When on holiday near a pool and a bar / other source of alcohol, stop posting on the Internet.

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:25 
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Grim... wrote:
Out of interest, the UK kicks out 8.5 tonnes of CO2 per capita, compared to China's 5.3 and India's incredible 1.4, so yes, we would be setting a rather good example.


True figures but slightly disingenuous. China and India have a lot more poverty, so their proportion of energy consumers is a lot less. If they raised their game regarding poverty, their energy consumption would massively increase.

It's an idea though, we could change those figures by making sure more people in the UK can't afford to run anything that uses energy. Actually, that seems like the current plan!


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:26 
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Grim... wrote:
Grim...'s life hints #64: When on holiday near a pool and a bar / other source of alcohol, stop posting on the Internet.


Very true mate. :)
Still, the same could also be said of train toilets. :D

/Cavey buggers off to belly-flop into pool and embarrass grandchildren

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:29 
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Captain Caveman wrote:
/Cavey buggers off to belly-flop into pool and embarrass grandchildren


A perfect analogy for energy short-termism.
The belly flop will embarrass them for 2 minutes, whereas if you really planned and worked on it, you could find a way to embarrass them their whole life ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:31 
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Trooper wrote:
whereas if you really planned and worked on it, you could find a way to embarrass them their whole life ;)
...like destroying the planet's environment with a carbon-belching fast car! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:37 
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Trooper wrote:
Captain Caveman wrote:
/Cavey buggers off to belly-flop into pool and embarrass grandchildren


A perfect analogy for energy short-termism.
The belly flop will embarrass them for 2 minutes, whereas if you really planned and worked on it, you could find a way to embarrass them their whole life ;)


No idea what you're driving at there, fella. You need to be far less oblique with me; I require insults in big letters and flashing lights please, none of this clever little side-swipe nonsense.

Besides, actually I *am* insulted. Believe you me, one of my belly-flops causes at least 30 minutes' worth of severe embarrassment - two minutes indeed. (I'm OK though, thanks to my CO2-tastic sportscar and motorbike. I am my grandson's hero since I told him that my Porsche was really a Hot Wheels, his eyes as large as saucers lol :D ).

(I really am off now, sorry for derailing your thread Doc. :) )

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:42 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Trooper wrote:
whereas if you really planned and worked on it, you could find a way to embarrass them their whole life ;)
...like destroying the planet's environment with a carbon-belching fast car! ;)

Says the man that owns two dogs.

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:42 
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Captain Caveman wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Grim...'s life hints #64: When on holiday near a pool and a bar / other source of alcohol, stop posting on the Internet.


Very true mate. :)
Still, the same could also be said of train toilets. :D


BOOM!

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:53 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Trooper wrote:
whereas if you really planned and worked on it, you could find a way to embarrass them their whole life ;)
...like destroying the planet's environment with a carbon-belching fast car! ;)


I prefer to think of them as carbon-purring...


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:12 
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Grim... wrote:
I'm certainly glad I don't have Australian kids.


Well..... Fuck :(


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:08 
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http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/ ... pe=article

"The radical decline in sea ice around the Arctic is at least 70% due to human-induced climate change, according to a new study, and may even be up to 95% down to humans – rather higher than scientists had previously thought."


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:09 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/26/arctic-climate-change?cat=world&type=article

"The radical decline in sea ice around the Arctic is at least 70% due to human-induced climate change, according to a new study, and may even be up to 95% down to humans – rather higher than scientists had previously thought."

Don't let evidence-based scientific theory get in the way of a good old bluster!

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:18 
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The Last Salmon Man wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/26/arctic-climate-change?cat=world&type=article

"The radical decline in sea ice around the Arctic is at least 70% due to human-induced climate change, according to a new study, and may even be up to 95% down to humans – rather higher than scientists had previously thought."

Don't let evidence-based scientific theory get in the way of a good old bluster!


Doomed! Doomed I tells ya!

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:56 
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metalangel wrote:
The Last Salmon Man wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/26/arctic-climate-change?cat=world&type=article

"The radical decline in sea ice around the Arctic is at least 70% due to human-induced climate change, according to a new study, and may even be up to 95% down to humans – rather higher than scientists had previously thought."

Don't let evidence-based scientific theory get in the way of a good old bluster!


Doomed! Doomed I tells ya!

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:22 
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Sid DavPaz? I didn't realise he had a brother.

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:35 
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The Last Salmon Man wrote:
Sid DavPaz? I didn't realise he had a brother.

yeah,no autocorrection on this phone keyboard.the s is meant to be a d.


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 16:00 
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Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature results prove that climate change exists and is completely man-made. Now we shall watch ring-wing lunatics argue that climate change is a good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 16:01 
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Those darn ring-wings.

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 17:27 
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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:05 
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As much as Climate Change has been triggered by thousands of small acts, action against Climate Change could be triggered by small acts from large entities that could afford it. Here are a few examples that could inspire others.

Supermarkets: How about you stop teasing and start charging for carrier bags already? An extra few quid on the bill every time you forget to bring your burlap sack is enough of a motivator to remind people, is it not? Sure, you might annoy some people for a while, but what are they going to do? Shop on the high street? I think not.

Coffee Chains: Charge extra for disposable cups. Sell resuable cups that people bring back every morning, swap for a fresh one and wash the returns in-house. Better and more energy efficient than recycling, surely?

Ban Toast: Eat Bread.

Watch TV in shop windows.

There you go, I've saved the world.


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:09 
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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:47 
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DavPaz wrote:
Supermarkets: How about you stop teasing and start charging for carrier bags already? An extra few quid on the bill every time you forget to bring your burlap sack is enough of a motivator to remind people, is it not? Sure, you might annoy some people for a while, but what are they going to do? Shop on the high street? I think not.


Come to Wales, where that's been the law for nearly a year now and it's worked well. Ireland's been doing it even longer. If you shop at Sainsbury's, though, get your reusable bags from another supermarket: Sainsways ones are fucking crap.

Quote:
Coffee Chains: Charge extra for disposable cups. Sell resuable cups that people bring back every morning, swap for a fresh one and wash the returns in-house. Better and more energy efficient than recycling, surely?


Will Barfbucks pour your Fappucino Volante into one of those big truck driver thermos mugs if you ask them to? I ask as we have 'office mugs' at work for those who don't have their own. They have gotten increasingly grotty and unpleasant, even with regular washing.


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 13:31 
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DavPaz wrote:
Coffee Chains: Charge extra for disposable cups. Sell resuable cups that people bring back every morning, swap for a fresh one and wash the returns in-house. Better and more energy efficient than recycling, surely?


Hmmm... i'm not sure the environment cost of producing paper cups is much greater than the cost of producing and washing re-usable cups. It wouldn't surprise me if it was better for the environment to do the former, once you take whole lifecycle cost into it.


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 13:32 
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Dimrill wrote:
Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature results prove that climate change exists and is completely man-made. Now we shall watch ring-wing lunatics argue that climate change is a good thing.

No, they'll continue to deny it exists. They have the same pro-ignorance mentality that young Earth Creationists and Holocaust deniers do. They'll fart on about "dubious science" whilst only having a secondary school level education.


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:21 
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Hero of Excellence wrote:
Dimrill wrote:
Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature results prove that climate change exists and is completely man-made. Now we shall watch ring-wing lunatics argue that climate change is a good thing.

No, they'll continue to deny it exists. They have the same pro-ignorance mentality that young Earth Creationists and Holocaust deniers do. They'll fart on about "dubious science" whilst only having a secondary school level education.


... Ooof!

Ooh, put those claws away and have a saucer of milk. Assuming you were referring to people like me, then yes, I do indeed lack a university education (not from choice, I might add), but so what? I have the intelligence and discernment that I was born with at least, and have garnered knowledge via other means, principally via the 'real world' as it were. I could mention here that I seem to have done okay out of this approach; without wishing to be unduly immodest, the 'fruits of my mind' so to speak have benefited many and I am proud of my technical, as well as commercial achievements. I'd add of course that plenty of people I know don't know their arse from their elbow from having received the benefit of going to Uni, albeit that is not to say that I am anti-education, far from it. I've talked about little else these last 5 years. But on the other hand, why should I go on the defensive? I've nothing to prove, not here at least.

I scanned that article and suffice to say that that it "proves climate change exists and is completely man-made" is an exaggeration. Of course, for my part, I've never claimed that climate change itself does not exist; I merely question the assertion that it is man made, as opposed to via some other process such as the variability of the sun, which is understood to a rudimentary extent. I mean, the Romans grew vines and made wine in what is now the UK some 2,000 years ago; we've had Ice Ages of course and much more recent, but pre- Industrial Revolution climate change as well. No-one was trundling around in 4x4s back then; Perkies mentions and links other stuff in his post and there is yet further evidence of the historic variability of polar ice caps on Mars etc. etc.

Even if we accept accept the global warming hypothesis in its entirety and also that it is entirely man made, precisely what good would be achieved by the UK unilaterally shooting itself in the foot as a 'moral example' to the Chinese, Indians and Americans, let alone a whole bunch of developing nations who, quite understandably, would like to have their own share of refrigerators, power stations etc.? Does anyone who has the slightest understanding of fundamental human nature honestly believe that this will be effective? Even if you subtracted the entire CO2 output of the UK from the global total, then even according to current theory, this will still make bugger all difference. So yeah, I guess the recognition of these basic, pragmatic truths, as opposed to the milk-and-honey cloud cuckoo wishlist of some quarters, makes me 'right wing scum' or whatever.

I would continue but there's precisely no point. I really can't be arsed with the whole hysterical, pseudo-religious zealotry that comes with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:26 
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So, we should definitely doom the planet so as not to let Johnny Foreigner get a potential advantage?

What's to say that investing in more renewables and a lower carbon economy won't be beneficial? It certainly will be in the long term, but, alas, the long term is rarely considered by politicians

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:34 
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Curiosity wrote:
... the long term is rarely considered by politicians
It is in China. Who funnily enough are massively investing in renewable energy sources (they've calmed it a bit recently, but still).

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:36 
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Curiosity wrote:
So, we should definitely doom the planet so as not to let Johnny Foreigner get a potential advantage?


That's a total caricature of what I'm saying, Curio. (I particularly dislike the implied xenophobia, which again, is an example of the emotive baggage that comes with any such attempted discussion, and is why I wish to avoid it).

It's clear enough what I am saying. If it truly is the case that global warming is largely or wholly man-made, why is it do you suppose that the Chinese, Indians, Americans and a whole bunch of other nations refuse to come on side? Are you suggesting that they're really that stupid? Clearly, if this was the case, they would be dooming the fate of their own peoples as well as everyone else.

Quote:
What's to say that investing in more renewables and a lower carbon economy won't be beneficial? It certainly will be in the long term,


It'll be beneficial if the man-made global warming hypothesis is correct, yes. (Albeit, if only the UK and a few others actually do it, the benefit will be so tiny as to be immeasurable, if I understand the basic premise correctly).

In terms of other "benefits", the low carbon economy has, in part, lead to a big increase in energy bills, including via taxation/tax-take. For those on marginal incomes who have to decide whether to eat or heat their homes, I'm guessing this IMO ephemeral, unproven benefit is greeted with a wry smile at best.

Quote:
but, alas, the long term is rarely considered by politicians


Agreed, ain't that the truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:37 
Filthy Junkie Bitch

Joined: 17th Dec, 2008
Posts: 8293
Wullie wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
... the long term is rarely considered by politicians
It is in China. Who funnily enough are massively investing in renewable energy sources (they've calmed it a bit recently, but still).

Is that for their own use, or to sell to the like of us? I honestly don't know, but do recall that they were throwing up a coal fired power station per week 4 years ago or some similar stat.


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:39 
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Can you dig it?

Joined: 5th Apr, 2008
Posts: 4662
I liked it when we did this last time and someone posted that 'what if this is just a hoax and we make this a better world for nothing?' cartoon.


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:45 
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Sitting balls-back folder

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 10065
ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
Wullie wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
... the long term is rarely considered by politicians
It is in China. Who funnily enough are massively investing in renewable energy sources (they've calmed it a bit recently, but still).
Is that for their own use, or to sell to the like of us? I honestly don't know, but do recall that they were throwing up a coal fired power station per week 4 years ago or some similar stat.
For their own use, when the costs* of doing it the currently-cheap way flop the other way.

Though I'm sure they'll happily sell us a few as well when their own needs are met, so we have energy to continue using the stuff they make for us. Good business sense.

* Fuel (availability) cost, population cost, health cost, people-stop-doing-business-with-them cost. All the costs.


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:47 
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Honey Boo Boo

Joined: 28th Mar, 2008
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Oh but if we don't!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:35 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

Joined: 31st Mar, 2008
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What kind of bizzarro London is that? Global warming will significantly rearrange major landmarks so that you can see Tower Bridge from the bank opposite Westminster Palace?


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:41 
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Gogmagog

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Dimrill wrote:
Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature results prove that climate change exists and is completely man-made. Now we shall watch ring-wing lunatics argue that climate change is a good thing.


Which journal was that published in? The register seems to suggest it wasn't peer reviewed.

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:45 
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Honey Boo Boo

Joined: 28th Mar, 2008
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Squirt wrote:
What kind of bizzarro London is that? Global warming will significantly rearrange major landmarks so that you can see Tower Bridge from the bank opposite Westminster Palace?


Yes, as part of the same cataclysm that'll make the Thames half the width it currently is! DOOOOOOMED!


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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 13:18 
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Posts: 9521
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MaliA wrote:
Dimrill wrote:
Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature results prove that climate change exists and is completely man-made. Now we shall watch ring-wing lunatics argue that climate change is a good thing.


Which journal was that published in? The register seems to suggest it wasn't peer reviewed.


... LoL. Thanks Mali; very interesting reading for anyone who's actually bothered. Too many things to quote here - people can read it for themselves - but the closing paragraph of that piece is particularly amusing:

Quote:
All in all, it would seem that BEST's stated goal - to produce absolutely undisputable climate data and science, for all that this would mean a regrettable absence of simple, clear soundbites - has been abandoned.


Hey, I might be a stupid, uneducated, Flat-Earthing, evil 'right wing scum' and all of that, but 'dubious science' would seem to be positively charitable? And yet, stuff like this is routinely paraded as unequivocal 'proof' of global warming and its supposed wholly (or very largely) man-made origins? 8) Pfft. Pity there's no 'egg-on-face' dimlie. :roll:

And on that bombshell etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 13:32 
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Where are you?

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 1639
Captain Caveman wrote:
In terms of other "benefits", the low carbon economy has, in part, lead to a big increase in energy bills, including via taxation/tax-take.

Another thing that's going to cause a big increase in energy bills: when we run out of fuel (natural gas, coal, oil) in the UK and are almost entirely reliant on imports. Or we could invest in wind, solar, tidal and nuclear now before it's too late, despite having to take a short-term hit on bills/taxes.


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