Be Excellent To Each Other

It wasn't perfect, definitely. I was hoping this place would fix the imperfections whilst remaining similar, but it seems to have become the polar opposite.

I think I'll just go and kill myself, then.

I haven't actually read that thread because I'm at work and I was bit iffy about what it might've contained. But I'm glad to hear it. I still see a lot of silly, though.

Wouldn't that be stupid and pointless too?

You may as well, you're gonna die in under 100 years anyway. and what's 100 years when the universe is almost a billion times older than you?

Malc

I really don't think it has, there's as much serious as there is on WOS and you won't get actively abused (at minimum told to "Fuck off") for having the wrong opinion. There's just a lot of extra silly.



Have a quick glance at the first post and associated BBC linky at least, they're both safe.

That would be moderately extreme (if there can be such a thing).

But you do see what I'm getting at, right? One man's silly and pointless is another man's interesting diversion. I understand you don't like a lot of what goes on here but there seem to be a fair few happy customers. And I can imagine a lot of them find the "it's all silly and pointless" complaint a teensy bit insulting.

I think you're dead wrong there. It only takes a few people to start a sensible discussion and then others join in. In fact the only way in which CUS has annoyed me was when he waded into the child porn thread to tell everyone they were talking shit, which is fine as long as you can back it up by making some good points. All he succeeded in doing was discouraging anyone from taking part in similar discussions.

I'm not saying it's all silly and pointless. I think perhaps people are insulted and that's why they're not agreeing with me. This whole place isn't a big load of silly held together by pointless, I know that. There's plenty here to get stuck into. BUT, and this cannot be denied, there are a lot of posts that quite frankly, should be deleted. Just look in any thread. I can't be bothered to find examples, but I'm not imagining them.

Well, fair enough, but most people seem to manage to ignore the posts and threads they're not interested in. I really don't see why this is such a big deal?

Because there's so much of it that it's hard to ignore. In fact, I've found an example. And it was by me. Despite complaining about the silly stuff, I find myself drawn in and doing it myself.

Like I said, most people seem to manage to rub along with things as they are, so there we go.

This place is proof, if proof were needed, that you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Absolutely. But I'm pretty easy going generally and I cringe at the thought of this becoming the place I think it's going to become. As an example, I used to post on b3ta frequently, way back when it started. When it all started to get a little bit shit, someone created a splinter forum called 4rthur. It was good at first, but quickly descended into shit because of the new found "freedom". It also became increasingly cliquey and eventually it shut down and everyone fucked off.

Ah, now the one thing we mods do hold dear is the work-safe-ness of threads like that.


That's pretty funny, though

Yikes, I've been tidying up all day here in the music library, making a more funky-skillo streamlined system and listening to Lambchop, and I return to find strangeness once again!




To be fair to Jonarob I can see his frustration. I think there should be a little more meaty content on here. There are occassionally new threads when they should be in 'bits and bobs', and maybe a few too many esoteric one liner posts. I also wouldn't be adverse for a post count to be removed, though maybe it would still be nice if you could see your own. I've never been too sure if post counts were a healthy thing for a forum, despite every forum in existence having one.

I wonder if a soloution would be for future reviews and articles posted as new threads, encouring people to respond. The better the review and article, the more verbose, chin stroking responses will be gleaned. The problem at the moment is that we have a bundle of reviews waiting for a website to house them, and until it happens this forum will naturally be a little aimless. (No criticism intended towards the work of the mods and the splendid people behind the forum technology, job's a good 'un in my book so far.)

I try hard to make every response count. Thankfully in my job I get to mull over my answers away from the computer and then return for a quick typing in.

Finally I don't what's going on in the background to cause friction, but could people please step back again and take a few deep breaths. The trouble with a close knit forum like this is that because we've all known each other for so long online, things are apt to be taken personally and comments and replies tend to be put on a person's 'record'. Which is a bad thing.

Maintain an even strain, that's what I say, in the words of the excellent movie 'The Right Stuff'.

Hugs to CUS who's upsetness started this thread, and to everyone else who feels a bit cheesed and confused.

You know me from back then, then.

Gosh, I sounded hugely pompous in that prior post. To clarify, I don't mind short responses if they are excellent or even generally amusing. We just might need to get out of the habit of looking at everything like some exciting new 'meme' or something. Though I did love those polar bear photos, so what do I know.

Erm. Yes.

Heh. It's more my browsing history saying child porn in it that I'm concerned about, not any images or anything - I know nobody would post any examples or anything!

I think this is on the right track. Avoid memes perhaps? But again, I'm a little conflicted because they can be entertaining. I just think it's happening a little too often on here.

I think just by airing your concerns in this thread, Jonarob, that it might at least a small difference. Whilst I think this forum is probably geared more towards 'fun' than the old WoS was, there's no reason it can't have more positive discussion and serious posts in it. I'm always happy to discuss something sensible, but I tend to feed off other people like some sort of mood-vampire. If there's a tone of frivolity and sillyness, I often join in and enjoy myself, and then look back on it and cringe. Even more so when people are being argumentative.

So, yes, sensible threads... if you build it, they will come.

I think most of us are guilty of just that, Curiosity. Which is why I included an example of my own silliness, and also why nobody is to blame. There just needs to be a shift to the slightly more serious by a few people and the rest will follow. There'll still be room for the sillies, just not quite in the way there is now.

And the solution hasn't changed. Post some.

It can't be forced, Duds!

It can be helped, though, I think is what is trying to be said. I'm not sure anything will happen by just noting the problem exists - it needs like minded people (such as yourself) to pitch in with the seriuos and interesting stuff.

No but there is a time for talking and a time for action. You've made your point, and lots of us, including myself, agree (to varying degrees). So lets get to setting the tone by being tonal now!

I'll start....

Bum!

Ah, fuck. Can I have a do over?

Just trying to lighten the tone - sorry I couldn't help it.

Seriously though the Mods aren't going to back down, CUS is gone a week for better or for worse. So lets have a good forum week and set the tone so when CUS comes back we'll have a nice forum to debate and procrastinate in.

I have some on the cards. I was actually internetless over the bank holiday period and have been a bit too busy at work to do much lately. I have ideas though! And they will come! Very soon.

Crumbs, I missed that bit. Answering threads whilst dealing with irate phone enquiries about why Karl Jenkin's Requiem for an Armed Mass hasn't arrived from Hertfordshire, only for it to turn out to be because everybody's inexplicably reverted to using our old address, certainly not for the win.

Hope CUS is okay and comes back soon. Might email him some cheery wibble. Study cool, everyone, as The Small Faces said.

I'll definitely be contributing more in an attempt to change things, just as soon as I think of something worth talking about!

This is definitely a positive thing.

You know what I like?

I can say that Grim... is a big silly idiot with no fear of reprisal. All I may get is a nice message saying, "Hey, try being a bit more excellent to each other please."

Even though it's mainly the same userbase as WoS, it's a nice thing to have.

I don't think that about Grim... of course. I think even if he weren't a mod he's done an excellent job behind the scenes code wise. Maybe more than is appreciated.

This, very much this.

Regardless of differences of opinion, in general a fantastic job is being done, by Grim... and by others.

Perhaps, some method of showing appreciation is needed, as it seems that only the negative gets picked up on. Unless that's just me...

Nah, y'alright. Just keep coming here and having a nice time, that's thanks enough.

[edit] but true.

Cool.

Excellence has resumed - I like it.

Whatever, dick.

Sorry, sorry.

Yes, excellence has resumed, and all is right with the world once more. For this I am grateful and happy.

FYI CUS has deleted all his Xbox LIVE bezzie mates, to avoid seeing them delete him.
So if you wish to remain in contact on that medium, please re-add him.

The best moderators are those that you don't know exist and, up until the CUS incident, the moderators here have clearly been working overtime in the background creating and regulating this excellent forum. A brilliant job well done.

It's just a shame that there was a need to delete and edit genuine posts in the "CUS" thread. If I remember rightly that was one of the problems when Mr Campbell was informing the community of his decision to charge. I've refreshed my memory with the rules and conditions which simply say (quite rightly) be excellent to each other and that personal attacks will not be tolerated. Whether the deleted or edited posts contained any personal attacks I've no idea... hey ho. Freedom of speech and all that though; let the viewers decide whether they want to read such posts.

Hello chap. Haven't seen you around for a while.
Anyway, the only posts edited (or deleted) were by (the currently banned) CUS. This was done by the forum when we removed the extra accounts he created, but, to be honest, I would have removed them if it wasn't. If you're banned then, you know, you don't get to post. And we edited one of Mimi's, because it had an email from CUS in it. When he's back, he's free to say what he wants (assuming he follows the 'first rule', of course).

Just to be clear, the only posts deleted or edited by mods were ones made by a newly signed up account from the person suspended, and one containing a passed on email from the person suspended. There is little point suspending someone if they just create a new account moments later or if they get someone to post their comments for them, that's why the account and posts were removed. It wasn't censorship, it was enforcing the suspension, and it wasn't done on the basis of the content of the posts, purely the fact that they were posted at all.

EDIT - What Grim... said.

5 pages of internet drama that I can't be arsed reading.

If it helps, I hate you all.

Careful now - we've worked out how the banning thingy actually works.

Fair enough. I sincerely do hope that does come back, as does Dimrill. It's a shame that the suspension had to be so public and have it's own thread created to highlight the fact and deal with 'questions' from the community. I can't help but think that the motives for doing so were not exactly benevolent. Mind you, with a post count as high as CUS' someone was bound to ask why he wasn't posting.

Unfortunately, in these situations you're damned if you and damned if you don't. If we'd banned CUS and not said anything, we'd be accused of doing things in secret.

Sidenote: Posts should say if they've been tampered with. Transparency is a good thang.

After the suspension, but before this thread went up, CUS had already created a second account and starting complaining about the situation. I think the mods did the right thing by creating this thread.

This thread is the one created by CUS, Richard. I think the mod created thread has just fallen off the front page, or is further down it.

They do unless we take them away.
But you are, of course, directly disagreeing with what Ian said. See how much fun being a mod is?

The point of the CUS thread was for transparacy, it's a bit 'we don't want to know about moderation - it makes it seem heavey handed' BUT 'we want to know everything that is going on or it's happening behind our backs'.

I think that part of the problem is that we are the first set of mods and as such are finding the feet for the boards and are going to be the ones that make the mistakes. Personally I think whoever the mods are for the next 12 months we/you are going to find this as we go through the different seasons and different moods on the boards that come with them.

By all means criticise us, but please to it constructively.

You know how much I adore you, don't you Goddess Jasmine?

It's with that in mind that I am trying to write this as best I can to not sound in any way patronising, but I really don't think that anyone criticising you or any of the mods. I think that as a mod you understandably feel that everything you do on that front is under scrutiny. I had this problem when I disagreed with some of the modding procedures that Grim... used in the past, I think he perhaps took my points that I thought that deleting posts and such were un-called for as very personally to be about the decisions that HE made, but that wasn't what I was saying at all. I did try over and over to say this, but I think sometimes the moderators can understandably se things as their individual problems, and it seems to get in to a 'well, if you don't like the way we do things then...' or 'Everything I Do, I Do it For Yoooou' type thing, whereas I do not think that what either Pod nor Ian Aris were talking about your individual decisions.

The mods were democratically elected and have done a fine job, and I think that the problem does often seem to lie in the open-ness of things - but I mean open-ness to the user in question, not necessarily the board as a whole.

When stopping the PM system for someone, to block that user from PMing certain people, the mod who was doing it disabled their PM-ing ability without telling them first, which seems to have lead to a lot of this whole hoo-har. The mod used the reason in his defense that if the user hadn't actually turned up in the 25 minutes that he was fiddling with his settings then he would have been none the wiser, anyway, so he couldn't see what the problem was, which isn't really being open and honest or 'transparent' as it were, with the user in question.

I think that is where the transparency thing falls down - I don't think the user particularly wanted things like his past actions, mental state, etc, posted over the board (and the thread created by the mods for the sake of transparency turned out to be more about the man in general, and some quite personal stuff and people talking about what they thought of him, rather than anything else. The user was banned for things that happened in a private setting, but these were bought out into the open by way of an explanation. It's a tough choice to make, I am not sure whether it was for the best or not to be honest. He certainly upset some very nice people, but I think a few of the things that happened may have exacerbated matters just a little.

I think part of it is that although the mods are democratically elected, they were not done so on the basis of any practice proceedures that they put forward. What I mean is that we elected a group of people, not actually a way of doing things, in which I do not think we have had much of a say or have much control. Of course, this is very difficult because many things you cannot forsee until they happen, so you cannot perhas imagine how you might deal with a situation you had ever seen arising.

I think what would be helpful, though, is that when big modding decisions do happen that you ask for and listen to feedback from the person that the action was taken against, and also from any other members if it was a public matter, and listen to and use that feedback to perhaps re-think or modify the modding practices set in place, make a note of what decisions you have taken in any particular circumstances and use that as a precident for any future action taken in similar circumstances.

This way everyone should come to a set of moderation rules and guidelines that they agree on, and you won't feel so put upon that all of your moderating decisions are so under scrutiny as they will be a decision reached by common consensus and mutual agreement, and you will simply aid in the acrrying out of the actions arising from those decisions.

This is how we worked the process at the boards I used to moderate at, and it worked very well, and I never ever felt any pressure from any members because we were all in agreement.