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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:48 
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devilman wrote:
I read this article about gambling advertising earlier, and this bit stood out -

Quote:
The industry says the adverts have "limited impact" on gambling rates.


I appreciate that I'm more susceptible to this kind of advertising, but in my more vulnerable times, if I was watching a live match on TV and there'd be an ad for a casino I'd not already banned myself from, either during ad breaks or team sponsors, I'd often go looking for their website there and then.


I never watch telly but I do occasionally find myself in the pub when the football is on (generally by accident), and the way all the advert breaks are just for casinos and gambling outlets is really quite shocking, it's like you can't have sport without gambling, there's a malign symbiosis there that's rather distasteful.

They're clearly targeting those advertising slots (no pun intended....) for a reason, TBH I don't think they should be allowed to advertise on telly at all, it needs to go the same way as tobacco advertising.

Are they still allowed to advertise alcohol on telly? If so that needs to go as well.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:48 
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That is pretty fucking amazing. The betting/casino companies pay top whack for premium advertising slots but then get limited returns from it? HORSE SHIT.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 14:53 
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devilman wrote:

107 days without slots now though, so building up a nice little run again. However, last time I did this, I remember slipping just after the year mark, so I've got a long way to go yet.

This is still massive achievement and I think it's healthy with any addiction that you don't become complacent.

Good work. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 15:03 
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:this:
Well done mate.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 19:22 
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Hearthly wrote:
devilman wrote:
I read this article about gambling advertising earlier, and this bit stood out -

Quote:
The industry says the adverts have "limited impact" on gambling rates.


I appreciate that I'm more susceptible to this kind of advertising, but in my more vulnerable times, if I was watching a live match on TV and there'd be an ad for a casino I'd not already banned myself from, either during ad breaks or team sponsors, I'd often go looking for their website there and then.


I never watch telly but I do occasionally find myself in the pub when the football is on (generally by accident), and the way all the advert breaks are just for casinos and gambling outlets is really quite shocking, it's like you can't have sport without gambling, there's a malign symbiosis there that's rather distasteful.

They're clearly targeting those advertising slots (no pun intended....) for a reason, TBH I don't think they should be allowed to advertise on telly at all, it needs to go the same way as tobacco advertising.

Are they still allowed to advertise alcohol on telly? If so that needs to go as well.


Last week my 2 local bookies within 200m of each other all had posters saying "Let’s Talk About Responsible Gambling"

This was a desperate week of shite to try and fend off what the bookies fear will be a clampdown on £50 stake slots among other things

One of the many exciting initiatives of the week was..... " Staff at gambling venues and online sites will continue to be points of contact for their customers on how to gamble responsibly"

Translated to "Our disinterested overworked zero hours staff will continue to watch people load £1000's into the FOBT machines as their area manager has linked their pay to the takings of these machines"

More exciting news on the week here https://sbcnews.co.uk/retail/2017/09/29 ... ling-week/


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 20:26 
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Goddess Jasmine wrote:
devilman wrote:

107 days without slots now though, so building up a nice little run again. However, last time I did this, I remember slipping just after the year mark, so I've got a long way to go yet.

This is still massive achievement and I think it's healthy with any addiction that you don't become complacent.

Good work. :)


Zardoz wrote:
:this:
Well done mate.


Thank you both. :) It's a shame it took my Dad getting ill to really snap me out of my gambling rut, but he's on the mend and I'm doing ok without the gambling, so it's worked out ok far.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 16:07 
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A general gambling thing, rather than slots, but this story caught my eye. I can't help thinking that if there are differences on the backs of cards and you spot that, it's not really cheating.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 16:16 
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Yes, apologies, but belated congratulations and good wishes from me, too. Awesome work. :)

@Hearthly, sorry to you also mate, I don't wander into this thread that much and I know we've had our political disagreements and what you described was a very long time ago etc., but I was still shocked to the core by your last post, to the extent I shed a tear. I'm so glad you, like me, are free of this, and whilst your life was terribly blighted, as mine was, we're still here, we have our families and it's all a very different ball game. I keep getting asked to review this old machine or that old machine over at The Mecca, and who knows I might still do it for the sake of the nice guys still there, but honestly I don't really have the stomach for it. For when all's said and done, those "classics" and "playable old machines" were actually the very things that nearly destroyed me, and far from being quaint, lovely old things, they were actually evil, hateful, money-stealing devices bent to the fucking core.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 16:28 
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How do you feel about the fully-regulated online casino slots, folks? Things like this:

Image

As far as I'm aware, they can't be emptied so don't have the problem of professionals feeding off the casuals.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 16:33 
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Heh, me and Hearthly have been arguing the toss over this for 15 years minimum. :)

For me, true random machines are clearly fairer. But. The *big* problem - and not by virtue of their randomness - is stake size. You can literally bet £700 *per spin* via your phone, tablet or PC, anywhere there's 3G reception or internet. That's just fecking crazy, and does rather make a nonsense of limiting jackpot sizes on real, physical machines (not that I don't think they should btw, but still)

The traditional "pre determined" UK fruit machine is a bent piece of shit, for the reasons you describe. It's a nasty con-trick; a machine that's been "done" will often be impossible to win on, and the advertised percentage payout (invariably much lower than for a random casino machine) extremely misleading.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 16:58 
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Grim... wrote:
How do you feel about the fully-regulated online casino slots, folks? Things like this:

Image

As far as I'm aware, they can't be emptied so don't have the problem of professionals feeding off the casuals.


It's something I briefly mentioned on the previous page. Although they're fairer, it just means that everyone loses instead. However, for me, I found the online slots way more addictive that physical slots. As Cavey says, you can play them anywhere at any time. Some providers will let you have multiple slots open at once - some of the NetEnt ones you can have four per screen, while
Microgaming's client allowed you to have them in tabs. Playtech's client has them in separate windows, so you could have one per monitor if you wanted.

You can tell a lot of money goes into developing online slots too when you've got stuff like The Dark Knight or Lord of the Rings


lots of bells and whistles to keep you drawn in.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:55 
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Something that isn't always obvious with online slots are the reel layouts. With a physical fruit machine, you get the same number of symbols on each reel, but with a video slot, you could vary it and it would be hard to tell. If you look at the original Thunderstruck, reels 1-4 have 30 symbols, but the last one has 44, so you could quite easily pad a reel out with crap if you wanted.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 21:55 
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The thing with random slots is that even though the results may be fair and random, the design of the slots is anything but.

So you get weighted reels, the 'fake reel strips' that slots do during the three scatters spins, 'jackpot thermometers' which the small print says means nothing, pre-determined pick-me bonus rounds that do 'reveals' of what you allegedly missed, and so on.

And that's before you get into those online slots that can genuinely be manipulated. (The Dark Knight Rises slot that devilman's linked to above had a manipulator on it that led to it being hastily updated across the Microgaming estate.)

Add in predatory bonuses, 'pending withdrawal' periods, VIP systems designed to keep players depositing, and all sorts of other nonsense - and the whole online thing is no better or worse than pub fruities IMO.

At least with pub fruities the stakes/prizes are limited, and because they're compensated they'll always cough a decent chunk back in the end and give the player a 'get off' point.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:27 
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Interestingly, I had an email the other day from the support desk at Cassava, who run a lot of the online casinos. I'd read something about an issue at 888 and them getting fined or something, but I hadn't used them much, so didn't think too much of it. The email referred to this document about them not properly stopping excluded players from using their sites and them wanting my bank details to pay any potential refunds. Seemed fishy, but I clarified things with them and it turns out they're refunding me £200, which is an unexpected bonus. Obviously it's just my own money back, but I'll take it.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:10 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41814465

12 week consolation starts today on FOBT stakes.

Of course the bookies want no change, they are even asking for a raise in the stake\prizes

Other side wants a reduction in stake. Bookies say " putting a £2 limit on them will mean half of all betting shops will close and 21,000 people will lose their jobs."

Bookies have been using the employment card for a while to justify the number of shops on the high street, they are limited to 4 per site so keep opening shops as they make 50K or so profit per machine.

BACTA who represent all other gaming and amusement, (but not bookies) are also saying the want to see a raise in stake to £2 and a top prize of £150 in pub fruit machines, they feel this will help resolve the general drop in income they have seen over the last 6 years.

My guess is they will leave it all alone with the exception of pulling the £100 stake you can do on roulette, you have to ask at the counter to get this turned on and it doesn't apply to the slots the maximum stake on these is £50.

I would like to see a change in the bookies, they appear to be able to work within slack rules that apply nowhere else, you can see a game in the bookies that offers £50 "mega spins" and the same game in a amusement arcade or Bingo hall doesn't.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:33 
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Yes they do keep trotting out the jobs line but there's been some very good research to show that bookies' 'total cost to society' far outstrips any supposed employment benefits. (And that's before you even consider that working in a bookies is apparently a miserable fucking job, as the staff are basically pimps for the FOBTs, the rest of the 'business' is a trivial consideration compared to the FOBTs, hence them opening multiple shops under the same banner per town, just to get the 4 FOBTs in each.)

A bold and brave government would face down the industry and cap them to £2 per play, £500 jackpot, minimum payout 94% on all random games.

They'd keep stakes and prizes the same on AWPs, and mandate a minimum payout of 86%. (Besides which AWPs already have a jackpot of £150, since all Betcoms + clones (which are most machines now) are capped to £150 on the red mega.)

They'd ban all 'kiddy gambling' (£5 jackpot machines) completely.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:44 
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Hearthly wrote:
Yes they do keep trotting out the jobs line but there's been some very good research to show that bookies' 'total cost to society' far outstrips any supposed employment benefits. (And that's before you even consider that working in a bookies is apparently a miserable fucking job, as the staff are basically pimps for the FOBTs, the rest of the 'business' is a trivial consideration compared to the FOBTs, hence them opening multiple shops under the same banner per town, just to get the 4 FOBTs in each.)

A bold and brave government would face down the industry and cap them to £2 per play, £500 jackpot, minimum payout 94% on all random games.

They'd keep stakes and prizes the same on AWPs, and mandate a minimum payout of 86%. (Besides which AWPs already have a jackpot of £150, since all Betcoms + clones (which are most machines now) are capped to £150 on the red mega.)

They'd ban all 'kiddy gambling' (£5 jackpot machines) completely.


:this:

The betting companies must know that this business model of just having these shops to have the FOBTs is going to turn sour at some point - they're just cashing in while they can. When your business is propped up by the worst of the addicts, you get no sympathy from me, regardless of the lost tax revenue and jobs stuff they trot out.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:25 
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Hearthly wrote:
A bold and brave government would face down the industry and cap them to £2 per play, £500 jackpot, minimum payout 94% on all random games.

They'd keep stakes and prizes the same on AWPs, and mandate a minimum payout of 86%. (Besides which AWPs already have a jackpot of £150, since all Betcoms + clones (which are most machines now) are capped to £150 on the red mega.)

They'd ban all 'kiddy gambling' (£5 jackpot machines) completely.


Hang on, who was it again who massively expanded and liberalised hard gambling in this Country?

Quote:
Gambling liberalisation introduced by the former Labour government was a "mistake" and has ruined people's lives, the party's deputy leader Harriet Harman has admitted.

Harman called for action to reverse measures in the Gambling Act, which allowed the proliferation of betting shops in poor areas, many of them operating high-stakes roulette terminals.

Research conducted for Channel 4's Dispatches suggested that British punters lost more than £1bn last year on the fixed-odds betting terminals (Fobt machines), which allow bets of up to £100 every 30 seconds on touch-screen roulette games.

Fobt machines first appeared in the UK in 2001 and the 2005 act introduced a limit of four for each betting shop in England and Wales.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/aug ... law-harman

So then, another great move by Labour, and now it's up to the Tories to sweep up the social fall-out and the mess. Maybe a "bold government" wouldn't have introduced these ubiquitous, monstrous life-wreckers on every street corner in the first place... the hypocrisy of Corbyn/Watson now; it's breath-taking.

Besides which, you're seriously *still* advocating "traditional" (i.e. non-random, totally bent) fruit machines, which even by yours and my bitter experiences rip lives apart, precisely because they are bent and in reality often no chance of winning at all, let alone 86%? What good is 86% if it's mostly being paid out to pro players as 'accounted for' wins? How do you square this with those videos of machines being "done" you posted, just a few days ago?

I was listening to some twat from 'the industry' on R4 this morning, seriously arguing in favour of £100/spin using the old alcohol/'we don't ban vodka because of alcoholics' analogy. Seriously? I had to switch it off. Ban 'em all, and take your shit betting shops with you.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:58 
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I thought that the original £500 stakes came in with the gaming industry working around some gaps in the law?

The stake was minimum 10p £25 JP so they implemented machines that allowed 20 games at once so £2\£500?

Prior to this there were bingo games in some arcades that paid out £500 in shopping vouchers of your choice and the top prize was a mini car.

The government then had to apply some legislation after the event so to speak.

The biggest issue for me is the bullshit statements that the bookies staff are always there to help problem gambler's, the skills required to pull a player around after he has dumped every penny he has into a FOBT and is loosing the plot are far beyond a minimum wage employee stuck on their own behind a Perspex screen.

Then you have the contradiction that managers and possibly staff wages are based on weekly FOBT takes, in my local bookies there are a couple of guys who are in there all day every day, its clear they can't afford to gamble at the levels they do as they are often upset when losing.

On more than one occasion I've seen them come in and play on low stakes, only to have the manager come out and show them new games on high stakes via free play.

This twat knows they are addicted gamblers and does everything he can to keep them blowing their money.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:26 
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Quote:
"My own view is that we should probably get rid of them on the high street. I don't think casino gaming by machine belongs in the high street, I think it belongs in casinos."

Harman told the programme: "If we had known then what we know now [about the clustering of betting shops], we wouldn't have allowed this, because it's not just ruining the high street, it's ruining people's lives.

"I got the most heartrending letters and emails and calls that I've ever had in 30 years of being an MP, just saying 'Please do something about this. It's ruined my life, it's ruined my family, it's really dangerous and the problem is it's getting worse and that's why we need the law to be changed so that something can be done about it'.

"Well, I think we were wrong, we have made a mistake and this result is the consequence and we need to do something about it."

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:40 
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As someone who has never put a penny in a fruit machine and only ever gambles a few quid on the National, I would fully support the banning of Fruit Machines.

I believe I shared my mate's tale earlier in this thread. I saw him flush his university career down the toilet over the course of six months of fruit machine addiction. He was massively overdrawn on his bank account to the tune of over £2000, multiple maxed out credit cards, hardship loans from the university and every penny of his student loans gone. And no income. If he'd had access to other sources of money, he would have maxed them out to. He was ruined.

In the end he had to just jack it all in and go home. One morning, he woke up on a friend's sofa, rang his Dad to come and get him and just left everything that he had behind. It took him years to recover from it. He's doing ok now, but he was lucky he had an escape route and a loving family to take him back.

Moving fruit machines to casinos is no brainer.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:46 
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:this:

I completely agree Davpaz, good shout imo. :)
Get rid of the fucking things, or at least confine them to casinos (and make sure they are random and fair, and payout resemble similar % to roulette and other casino games).

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:48 
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Good that Mrs Harman admitted her mistake too. Very rare in politics.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:50 
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DavPaz wrote:
As someone who has never put a penny in a fruit machine and only ever gambles a few quid on the National, I would fully support the banning of Fruit Machines.

I believe I shared my mate's tale earlier in this thread. I saw him flush his university career down the toilet over the course of six months of fruit machine addiction. He was massively overdrawn on his bank account to the tune of over £2000, multiple maxed out credit cards, hardship loans from the university and every penny of his student loans gone. And no income. If he'd had access to other sources of money, he would have maxed them out to. He was ruined.

In the end he had to just jack it all in and go home. One morning, he woke up on a friend's sofa, rang his Dad to come and get him and just left everything that he had behind. It took him years to recover from it. He's doing ok now, but he was lucky he had an escape route and a loving family to take him back.

Moving fruit machines to casinos is no brainer.


I'd get rid of scratchcards too.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:53 
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devilman wrote:
I'd get rid of scratchcards too.


Yep. Too easy.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:20 
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Its little wonder the bookies are not happy with any change to the maximum £100 stake

The FOBT takings look to be almost all from these stakes vs the £2 a spin games


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:24 
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Yes, I'd get rid of scratchcards as well - any form of gambling where the outcome is instantly known is the most dangerous. So, scratchcards and fruit machines are worse than, say, the National Lottery, where the gambler has to wait hours or more commonly days for the outcome.

At least with even scratchcards, though, and as awful they are and their payout% nothing short of scandalous, it's not the same bunch of people with "insider knowledge" winning pretty much everything, all the time, and everyone else losing heavily, and with vanishingly small chances of any success, far less than any advertised payout would suggest.

I guess back in the days of maximum £2.40 cash jackpots (as late as the early 1990s) and 20p a go, it could reasonably be argued these were amusement machines and accordingly, you couldn't be too surprised they were bent, much like a crane grab machine at the fair, or whatnot (I don't subscribe to this even at all btw, but you could see why someone in government could think that). But now, with even "pub fruities" costing £1 per spin and £100 repeating cash jackpots, no-one could seriously describe them as amusement machines and therefore somehow not gambling. You can rip through a couple of hundred quid in a single hour with no problem, especially if it's been "done"... even Hearthly has come on here before now to quote some machine or other that took nearly £100 straight, without even offering a SINGLE win of even one pound, and no doubt with 80% payout advertised on it or whatever. The fact that these exist, in places where kids and young adults go (i.e. pubs), is a bloody travesty, just as man-trap FOBTs in every seedy bookie on every High Street is a travesty. We don't sell smack and cocaine on every street corner even though we'd generate shitloads of tax revenue, no doubt. Labour, honestly. Is there nothing they did not mess up, the naive, useless idiots?

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:27 
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I don't have such a big problem with the national lottery and scratch cards as part of the money raised goes to good causes. Gambling machines are just there to line the pockets of the owners.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:35 
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But you would have a big problem with scratchcards in every newsagent, garage and supermarket if you were a compulsive gambler (possibly made so by another "gateway" means, such as fruit machines), regardless of whom the money goes to. Some of these cards are £10 each, offering £4 million jackpots! Ridiculous!

These things are little more than a taxation on the poor IMO, in many cases. How many scratchcards mean some kid somewhere doesn't get a good meal in his belly or clothes on her back? Fuck off the lot of them.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:46 
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Kern wrote:
Good that Mrs Harman admitted her mistake too. Very rare in politics.


Must be another one of those mea culpas ;)

_________________
Beware of gavia articulata oculos...

Dr Lave wrote:
Of course, he's normally wrong but interestingly wrong :p


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