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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:42 
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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
The £70ers are pretty brutal, catch one wrong and it'll take £200 over the back and give you a flat £70 for your trouble. I got a proper kicking off one a couple of months ago (£150 down) but learned enough from that to get the profiles pretty much sussed, and haven't come unstuck since then.


The only one I did play was a Bullion Bar type clone called Pure Gold (I think). I've never seen it pay a jackpot, although on the feature I have seen the combined win value reach £70 once. It also has a Mega Streak type feature which I've never seen anyone get either.

I've also put £250 through it in one session. Me=mug.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:50 
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Zardoz wrote:
Yeah, think on.


I've had consistent periods of winning in the past too, so it's not unprecedented. Indeed there was one time I quit (going back 8 or 9 years now) simply because they were taking up too much time and demanding too much travelling around, I scrupulously updated an Excel spreadsheet with wins/losses to make sure I wasn't deluding myself.

In fact, just had a little search, I've still got the spreadsheet in my backups, it was actually 11 years ago 8) And yes I do have backups going back 11 years, because I'm that sad.

Anyway, point remains, that after an initial loss period where I was practising the craft, I consistently made a profit on the buggers, although back then the jackpot was £15, not £70.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:11 
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devilman wrote:
The only one I did play was a Bullion Bar type clone called Pure Gold (I think). I've never seen it pay a jackpot, although on the feature I have seen the combined win value reach £70 once. It also has a Mega Streak type feature which I've never seen anyone get either.

I've also put £250 through it in one session. Me=mug.


Is that a lo-tech or a hi-tech?

I'm sticking rigidly to certain hi-tech AWPs in pubs where I know the staff and/or their mates aren't into them.

I also think that certain Barcrests and Reds have some kind of rip on them at the moment, there's an Indiana Jones machine in particular (I've come across them at more than one location) that is consistently dead to the extent that it makes me think they've been hammered with some kind of manipulator. I don't know what it is so I'm steering clear of them now.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 13:50 
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I forget what the definition is, but I suspect lo-tech. It's a bit of a weird one actually - it's one of those with a second reel at the top as the feature and on the normal reels there's no actual way of getting the jackpot - the highest win on there is £15 and anything higher has to be won on the feature.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 14:19 
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This must be like what my gf hears when I talk to her about computers...


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 14:20 
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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 14:38 
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Trooper wrote:
This must be like what my gf hears when I talk to her about computers...


>:(

Yeah it is a bit of a 'world unto itself' I must confess :)

There is proper money to be made out of fruit machines though, over the years they've had loads of mistakes in the code and/or bent programmers putting all kinds of dodgy shit into them, or just good old fashioned uber-players pulling stuff off that the coders had never anticipated.

I've pretty much worked out the profiles now for a few of the £70 jackpot machines, they definitely have a few 'tells' that you can look out for, so I now know when it's worth forcing them out - to the extent that I'll turn down a £70 jackpot offer and keep on pushing for the megastreak, as they're the ones that can go big. (£156 in the clip I posted on the previous page.)


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 16:55 
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From the other viewpoint, I like not knowing anything about newer machines - it means I'm less tempted to invest the time in figuring them out.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 17:44 
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devilman wrote:
From the other viewpoint, I like not knowing anything about newer machines - it means I'm less tempted to invest the time in figuring them out.


From a gameplay perspective you're really not missing anything at all devilman, the £70ers are absolutely fucking dreadful - only a masochist would be able to glean any actual enjoyment from playing them.

I stick to the ones I know and ruthlessly just seek to make money out of them, and that's it. On £1 per play (which is what I have them at when I'm going for them), you literally can't put the money in fast enough.

As I said to my chum last night, 'I ain't here for the view motherfucker!'

Basically, stay quit and stay clear! :) I'll drop them like a hot potato when I stop making money out of them.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 17:52 
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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
As I said to my chum last night, 'I ain't here for the view motherfucker!'

:hat:

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 18:32 
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Now post the graph from your internet fruit machine experiment. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 18:41 
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Nemmie wrote:
Now post the graph from your internet fruit machine experiment. ;)


I didn't do a spreadsheet for that one, just morosely wrote down my losses with a pen and piece of paper as the weeks dragged on.

Finished up about £3000 in the red, although I was nearly £1000 up at the high point.

And I had all my brilliant theories about it too! Which proved to be wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 19:44 
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I know and I hope that if your theories go wrong this time (due to chip revisions or the like) you stop playing immediately.

Although you do have an advantage being in the Isle of Man if you lived in Suburban London where every body is out to make a buck in the easiest way they can I am sure you would struggle to make any money regularly.

Long may it last.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 19:52 
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£3000 is a lot of red.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 20:16 
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I lost £37,000 (approximately) Between 18 and 23.

Which if you take in to account inflation in the last 16 years is probably an amount that I dare not think about in today's terms.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 20:36 
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Craster wrote:
£3000 is a lot of red.


But I had SCIENCE on my side!

Admittedly it turned out to be bad science, but still.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 21:32 
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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
Craster wrote:
£3000 is a lot of red.


But I had SCIENCE on my side!

Admittedly it turned out to be bad science, but still.


So basically, it was your £100 jackpot watered down to 10p. But it had a memory of being a hundred quid, and that was the main thing.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 23:38 
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Plissken wrote:
So basically, it was your £100 jackpot watered down to 10p. But it had a memory of being a hundred quid, and that was the main thing.


I don't get it :?:


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 23:51 
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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
Plissken wrote:
So basically, it was your £100 jackpot watered down to 10p. But it had a memory of being a hundred quid, and that was the main thing.


I don't get it :?:


A joke on the bad science part relating it to homeopathy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy where instead of medicine or even natural remedy's instead things are diluted until they contain absolutely none of the original ingredient but contain the 'memory' of it.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 0:00 
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zaphod79 wrote:
A joke on the bad science part relating it to homeopathy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy where instead of medicine or even natural remedy's instead things are diluted until they contain absolutely none of the original ingredient but contain the 'memory' of it.


Ahhh right I see, I'd probably have got that but for the percentages involved, doesn't homoeopathy basically end up at 'one drop of 'medicine' in every ocean on the planet', like 0.000000000001% or something utterly fucking ridiculous like that, so is water in a scientific sense.

10p out of £100 is a more meaningful percentage, hence it didn't click, although the 'memory' thing should have given me a clue as well. I look at things too literally sometimes, especially when it comes to fruities :D

That James Randi dude did something about it a few years ago..... Tap tap tap....

Ahhhh yes:



I noticed they had a 'homoeopathy rack' in Holland & Barrett the last time I went in - £4.50 for little bottles of water! That's nearly more expensive than the average restaurant.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:22 
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Enjoy you win streak while it lasts :)


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 14:10 
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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
'homoeopathy rack'

Is that a flat chest with diluted tit essence?

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:34 
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Tangentially related, my YouTube channel is positively brimming with videos of 'real' physical fruit machine action, and also online slot machine action, where I tested my awesome theory out.

http://www.youtube.com/user/chopleyspinach

Quote:
JackpotParty do a 'Double Your Play' promotion the last full week of every month, whereby they match a deposit 100% up to a maximum of £200, with a 20x wagering requirement.

What I'm trying to work out are the chances of basically getting some 'free slotting' (or near enough) on the promotion.

Here are my numbers..... I have chosen a small stake to reduce variance and increase the number of spins. As more spins = less variance and closer to the expected average return over time.

(I am using the game 'Bruce Lee' as my example slot, on 30p per spin, 95% average return.)

Deposit £200 to get the maximum £200 match-up bonus, so £400 to play with, but a £4000 wagering requirement before any withdrawal can be made.

£4000 = 400,000 pence

400,000 pence at 30p per spin = 13333 spins required to meet the wagering requirements

At 95% average return each 30p spin 'costs' 1.5p (5% of 30 is 1.5)

£400 = 40,000 pence, so should 'buy' 26,666 spins (40,000 divided by 1.5)

26,666 spins x 30p = £7999 wagered

AVERAGE luck should therefore meet the wagering requirements with the original £200 deposit intact and available for withdrawal.


These numbers aren't precise, because at Jackpot Party the payout on all the slots is split 92% for the base game, and 3% to the progressives, so for the above theory to hold true you'd have to hit at least the bottom progressive jackpot (usually around £50-£100 with the bonus presents taken into account) more than once, which is probably unlikely.

And of course, whether applying to the base game or the progressives, 26000 spins isn't enough to achieve a true average return, so good luck will see better results, bad luck will see worse results.




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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 13:14 
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Do you always watch the amounts go up like that or was that for the purposes of the video? I normally skip everything!

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 18:47 
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devilman wrote:
Do you always watch the amounts go up like that or was that for the purposes of the video? I normally skip everything!


Nah I always watch the features/wins/etc in full, that's the payoff for watching the bloody reels spin so many times!

The Bruce Lee video embedded above I was expecting to go big as soon as it dropped in, hence my voiceover to that effect, but it was still good to watch win after win drop in :D


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:52 
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Chuffed for you mate, but I can't help but feel that the reason why these online casino companies make these offers is to get people into the habit of playing their slots habitually? We're dealing with clever, devious people here and as you've said yourself, in order to make this likely to pay, you have to play very small stakes and recycle wins again and again. It's a serious time investment but more worryingly, a major "time exposure" to fruit machines - all those old neural pathways of gambling being restarted and reinforced in the case of the ex-addict, or initiated in the case of someone who's playing machines for the first time. (How likely is it that someone who has rarely, if ever played machines, would be doing this though? I suspect they know this and it's all factored into their overall strategy?)

For me, knowing how 'into' fruities I was 10 years ago, I just wouldn't touch these with a bargepole, even if I knew I was guaranteed to make £500 a month or whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 0:17 
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Cashed out with £700 profit from the first month's experiment, although it did take around 25 hours (!) of solid slotting at the lowest stakes possible on the games (20-40p).

Wagering £7000 at those stakes is, needless to say, a pretty slow process.

I've spent £400 of it on a new laptop, £100 of it on a tank of petrol and some oil for the car, and I have £200 left over to try the experiment again this month.

I suspect I'll get wiped out but one must try!



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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 0:53 
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Nice bit of luck that.. be interesting to see if it lasts. ;) Some of the online casinos have some brutal wager requirements. Depending on the software, I'd sometimes have multiple machines running in autoplay, but that's also a good way to watch the money drain pretty quickly too.. particularly on a quid a spin.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 0:14 
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devilman wrote:
Nice bit of luck that.. be interesting to see if it lasts. ;) Some of the online casinos have some brutal wager requirements. Depending on the software, I'd sometimes have multiple machines running in autoplay, but that's also a good way to watch the money drain pretty quickly too.. particularly on a quid a spin.


I've been crunching the numbers for the Jackpot Party progressive system (as best as it's possible to in the absence of verifiable odds), and am increasingly reaching the conclusion that I just got obscenely lucky to walk away £700 up.

It's the way the progressives are biased towards higher stakes players (of which I am not one) which is going to be the killer.

I suspect a total wipe out with the experiment this month, to the extent that I think I'll just not bother at all and think myself lucky to have walked away from the site in profit.

Then again I might get pissed one evening and change my mind :o


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:13 
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Another cunning experiment. You are clearly a mad professor of internet gambling.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:12 
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AE: you sound like you're heading for a fall. Be careful.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:25 
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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
I've been crunching the numbers for the Jackpot Party progressive system (as best as it's possible to in the absence of verifiable odds), and am increasingly reaching the conclusion that I just got obscenely lucky to walk away £700 up.


Something I've often wondered with the online machines - if you revisit a machine you've played before, it will be in the same state you left it (which is obviously essential for something like the Tomb Raider Secret of the Sword feature), so I assume that if you've won big on a machine and then return to it weeks later, it'll still need to play under percentage for a while to get back to its standard payout level. Whereas on a physical machine, many other punters would have taken their turn and taken that hit.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 15:58 
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devilman wrote:
AtrocityExhibition wrote:
Something I've often wondered with the online machines - if you revisit a machine you've played before, it will be in the same state you left it (which is obviously essential for something like the Tomb Raider Secret of the Sword feature), so I assume that if you've won big on a machine and then return to it weeks later, it'll still need to play under percentage for a while to get back to its standard payout level. Whereas on a physical machine, many other punters would have taken their turn and taken that hit.


It's a good question devilman and one that there's no clear answer to anywhere, I suppose you could open up a live chat session with support there and ask them, but my overall feeling is this.

For starters, the Tomb Raider game is an unusual one in that it does have a 'progression' system that's unique to your play sessions, and it remembers where it's up to. In all honesty I'm not sure how that fits into the profile of games that by law have to be completely random. I suppose what they could say is that the uncovering the artefacts is a random process, and the feature itself is random when you unlock it, so it's basically a random game within a random game.

For other games like Thunderstruck II where you unlock the four different bonus rounds I think it's more simple, they all have exactly the same long term expected return, they're just weighted differently. So when you choose from one of the four bonus rounds (once you've unlocked them all) you're just choosing four different variances, but all with the same expected return over time.

The other thing about Microgaming casinos is that their accreditation simply states that their slot games have an expected return over time of around 95%, they put up a certificate every month from an external auditor and this usually varies from about 94% up to about 96%, I suspect this is down to whether or not a big progressive or two has been hit, which would affect the overall percentage for the entire sire.

This is something I do like about Sky Vegas and Kerching, they give you exact figures for every single individual game, and assuming you can work out the variance for yourself (not hard to do), it's pretty simple to work out how you should get on. There's a game on the Kerching site which has an expected return of over 97%, which over thousands and thousands and spins will make a massive difference compared to a 94% expected return game.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 16:13 
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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
>snip<


That last paragraph is very interesting

Quote:
The expected payback value is also based upon correct player choices for any games which involve main game and/or bonus game play strategy.


Does that mean for example at a bonus point where there are 4 choices and they are 1p / 1p / 1p / £500 if you get the 1p they can say it paid out £500 because it was actually there and the player just chose the wrong box ?


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 16:13 
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Mr Russell wrote:
AE: you sound like you're heading for a fall. Be careful.


Thanks for the comment I do appreciate it :) However my days of fucking everything up with gambling are long gone, I just have too much to lose these days.

These days it's small stakes, small risk, and as much for entertainment as for profit (except the pub £70 AWPs which are brutal fuckers where I stick religiously to the ones I know I can beat).

Online slots are just a nice little diversion after everyone's in bed, bit of fun for my money and if I win anything so much the better.



(Fast forward three months when I'm posting out of a cardboard box in a grubby shop doorway, lamenting the loss of everything I once held dear......)


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 16:20 
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Heh, I love that innocuous little paragraph:

Quote:
The expected payback value is also based upon correct player choices for any games which involve main game and/or bonus game strategy


What this means, I think, is that this supposed ~97% payout will only actually be realised if the player ALWAYS makes the optimal choice - in everything - which is of course almost impossible statistically over many games. Take the Rainbow Riches choose me 'wishing wells' for example; three of these (on freeplay at least) can frequently vary between x2 to x20 stake, depending on which is chosen, and sometimes the variance is even greater, with a really big multiplier on one of the wells. (It's the same story on 4 or 5 wells, except here the variance is even more pronounced; it can be between x50 and x500 stake, between five wells etc.).

No-one is ever going to choose the best 'well', the highest number of freespins or whatever, all of the time, every time. So, the casino gets to claim a higher - possibly much higher %payout than can ever actually be achieved?

As an aside, I always feel queasy reading posts like this from you mate. For some people, I've no doubt they can 'play the system' (if they can be arsed) and come away with a few quid each month. But you're not one of them mate, any more than I am. IMO, you should leave these sites and all fruit machines well alone. :(

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 16:21 
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jinx Zaphod lol. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 16:26 
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zaphod79 wrote:
That last paragraph is very interesting

Quote:
The expected payback value is also based upon correct player choices for any games which involve main game and/or bonus game play strategy.


Does that mean for example at a bonus point where there are 4 choices and they are 1p / 1p / 1p / £500 if you get the 1p they can say it paid out £500 because it was actually there and the player just chose the wrong box ?


It is indeed very interesting zaphod, and it's a question I've never managed to get an answer to.

A game at Sky Vegas casino comes with this disclaimer:

Attachment:
capture2.JPG


My hunch here is that there is no 'player control' in any of these games, otherwise they're not random. I think every feature, every bonus round, every 'pick a box' and all that sort of stuff is completely pre-determined, it's just giving you a nice sound and light show to make it all look a bit more interactive. Moreover, I think the 'reveal' that it does (the Bullseye 'look at what you could have won' moment) on these sorts of rounds is just for show too.

If you had the time, the money and the inclination, you could play enough spins at small stakes on games that have these sorts of features, work out the numbers, and see if they add up or not or if indeed some of the expected return is being 'lost'.

Having being playing at online casinos for quite some time now, my feeling is there are no good and bad choices, the game has chosen what your prize for that spin is going to be as soon as it picks a number from the RNG, everything else is just window dressing.

The obvious one is the Jackpot Party Progressive feature at Jackpot Party, where the five levels of awards basically go (approx) £40 - £100 - £500 - £2000 - £15000. Each level of the game (allegedly) contains one 'go to the next level' star and four COLLECT squares, if it were the case that there was indeed a correct answer every JPP feature (and they come up quite a lot, you just almost always get binned off with 0 or 1 stars) then they'd be paying out the higher progressives all the time.

http://youtu.be/UDwoj1-y_dM


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 16:30 
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Captain Caveman wrote:
What this means, I think, is that this supposed ~97% payout will only actually be realised if the player ALWAYS makes the optimal choice - in everything - which is of course almost impossible statistically over many games. Take the Rainbow Riches choose me 'wishing wells' for example; three of these (on freeplay at least) can frequently vary between x2 to x20 stake, depending on which is chosen, and sometimes the variance is even greater, with a really big multiplier on one of the wells. (It's the same story on 4 or 5 wells, except here the variance is even more pronounced; it can be between x50 and x500 stake, between five wells etc.).

No-one is ever going to choose the best 'well', the highest number of freespins or whatever, all of the time, every time. So, the casino gets to claim a higher - possibly much higher %payout than can ever actually be achieved?


See my post above Cavey, I don't think that's how they work, although I fully accept that does make you wonder why they'd put the disclaimer in there in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 16:34 
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Hmm, well, I seriously doubt that 'pick me' features such as the wishing wells on RR or whatever are totally predetermined regardless of which one is chosen. Otherwise, like you say, why then bother with the disclaimer in the first place.

No, I suspect they are, in fact, attractive from the casino operator's POV in that the *actual* %payout for such games will always be lower than the 'optimal' claimed value that may well draw the punters in in the first place? Nothing whatsoever would surprise me about any of it. *shivers*

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 16:53 
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Well I've sent this off to Kerching,

I'll be sending emails to the support addresses of all other major online casinos in due course.

----------

Quote:
Dear Sir/Madam,

Could you please clarify a disclaimer for me that the 'PAYS' section of each of the slots games on your site contains.

I quote:

------------------------
The expected payback value is also based on correct player choices for any games which involve main game and/or bonus game play strategy.
------------------------

My concern here is that no one is ever going to make the optimal choice all of the time. (An obvious example would be the Captain Quid's Treasure Chest bonus feature.) Does your stated return over time for a game (i.e.95%) assume that a player will ALWAYS make the optimal choices in such situations? Because if this is the case, the reality is that no player would ever achieve that 95% return over time.

I would much appreciate a response to the following questions:

1) Are any 'choice' situations actually just pre-determined results, and what the game shows you 'could have had' is simply there to add to the gameplay experience? (i.e. Ultimately there is no player choice and the game is completely random.)

2) Are there indeed 'good' and 'bad' choices, and that the stated 95% return over time assumes an average over time of good/bad/indifferent choices over a large number of plays from a large number of players and thus the aggregate effect is still a 95% return over time? (i.e. The choices do affect short-term return but the expected return over time, for all players, is still 95%.)

3) Or are there indeed 'good' and 'bad' choices, and that if the player does not make the optimal choice 100% of the time (i.e. effectively impossible), the stated 95% return over time will thus never be achieved?

Some of your slots are far more interactive than others and require far more choices than others, some have no player choice element whatsoever, you just press start and see what happens.

Is it the case that for a player to achieve the stated percentage return over time as per the 'PAYS' section of each game, he is better off playing games where there is no player interaction, or as per my questions above, does it not make any difference?

I hope you can appreciate that the behaviour of 'player choice' situations on your slot games could have a large impact on a player's chances to win and/or achieve the expected stated return, and would be much obliged if you could answer the questions above.

Best regards,

My name here.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 16:59 
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I'd be interested to read any response mate, if only out of morbid curiosity. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 17:39 
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Captain Caveman wrote:
I'd be interested to read any response mate, if only out of morbid curiosity. :)


I'll give it 50/50 at best on me getting a straightforward answer out of anyone.

Certainly the 'hosts' who turn up on the realtime chat at Jackpot Party from time to time weren't giving anything away, the best I got was them quoting the T&Cs back at me, which I politely explained I'd already read and found them vague, hence asking for the clarification.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 17:42 
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My own take on it is that it seems very, very likely to me from the clause wording that the 'press start and see what happens' type pseudo-features are predetermined from the off (and are therefore not choices or features at all, merely de facto reel wins presented in a different way), whereas 'pick me' choices are real.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 17:58 

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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Without wishing to sound rude, I find the last part of your quote hard to genuinely believe to be true, it's too much like a Skinner box.


Honestly dude it's true, indeed, this is partly why me and Cavey well and truly lost our shirts back in the day, because unbeknown to us there was a whole raft of tricks/cheats/exploits/etc on virtually all fruit machines, and we were just the mugs filling them up for the clued up players.

A really simple example, for a period of a few years in the 90s, all machines made by a manufacturer called JPM did something called 'numbering' - whereby the player watched the hi/lo gamble reel (which runs from 1-12) during normal play. If the hi/lo reel ever span to a 1 or 12, the machine had a jackpot in it. The more often you saw 1 or 12, the closer it was and the more jackpots you'd be able to get out of it.

If you didn't see a 1 or 12 at all, the machine was dead and would not pay out a jackpot.

If the machine was happy, you'd see it showing 1 or 12 less often, and when it stopped showing 1 or 12, you'd taken all the jackpots out of it.

You can test this behaviour in the emulator on the machines that do numbering, if you don't see 1 or 12, you'll never ever gamble a win to the jackpot or get it off the feature.


This is how on a Friday I've give my housemate a pound and he'd go to the Chinese over the road then come back with masses of food for us all. He'd watch the machine through the window and go over when it was the right time. He'd also do it in the pub - I'd bob along after lectures and have a few pints for a quid from time to time.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 18:28 
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GovernmentYard wrote:
He'd watch the machine through the window and go over when it was the right time. He'd also do it in the pub - I'd bob along after lectures and have a few pints for a quid from time to time.


Plenty of machines had tell's - although just because a jackpot was due did not mean it would be 'cheap' to get.


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 19:01 
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Quote:
This is how on a Friday I've give my housemate a pound and he'd go to the Chinese over the road then come back with masses of food for us all. He'd watch the machine through the window and go over when it was the right time. He'd also do it in the pub - I'd bob along after lectures and have a few pints for a quid from time to time.


This is known as "sharking", basically someone watching machine(s) whilst they're being played, then jumping on them when the punter has finished/lost.

A risky business, especially in the rough as a bear's arse working men clubs that I used to frequent, and in many pubs as well. Back in my youth, I couldn't stand having some little snot boring holes into by back with their eyes, like some vulture, whilst I lost all my money - and frequently said so. Especially if it was the same individual all the time.

Fruit machine "pros" are a different matter; they by and large do not need to shark at all, merely deploy counter-intuitive "methods" that are frequently effective for much, if not all of the time, not just when a given machine has been filled up and/or is "happy".

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 19:38 
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Captain Caveman wrote:
Fruit machine "pros" are a different matter; they by and large do not need to shark at all, merely deploy counter-intuitive "methods" that are frequently effective for much, if not all of the time, not just when a given machine has been filled up and/or is "happy".


It's a bit of both these days Cavey, most of the £70ers that have, ahem, 'something' on them will have a tell/show that you look for first, and if that's there, you'll then deploy whatever sneaky little method happens to work on the machine in question. If it's not showing, you just walk away.

Believe it or not there's a whole family of current £70 jackpot AWPs that have a really basic show on the number reel just like JPMs and ACEs used to 10-15 years ago.

You play a few quid through, look for the show, and if it's there play out for a jackpot off two specific features. (One is true skill in all fairness, and the other requires a bit of reel position manipulation.)

Also, in an extra bout of sneakiness, the 25p/50p stakes on the machine are linked, but the £1 stake is maintained separately - so you can do the machine once on 50p stake, again on £1 stake, and if you're really lucky it'll chuck in the random invincible board too, which is paid for over a long time (like an old club machine's cashpot) and is therefore effectively free.

Got a bank of £225 on a single machine a few weeks ago in the one of my local pubs, crazy money for a pub fruit machine. (Unfortunately I didn't get a video of it for my channel as I'd already done the other machine in there, it was a Friday night, and I was starting to attract a bit of attention, whipping my phone out to video another big bank didn't seem like a good idea :DD )


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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 21:53 
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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
For starters, the Tomb Raider game is an unusual one in that it does have a 'progression' system that's unique to your play sessions, and it remembers where it's up to. In all honesty I'm not sure how that fits into the profile of games that by law have to be completely random. I suppose what they could say is that the uncovering the artefacts is a random process, and the feature itself is random when you unlock it, so it's basically a random game within a random game.


The main feature does seem to be random on that one - I've won up to £180 on it in the past and then I remember a couple of times where I actually won aboslutely nothing, which was gutting considering it can take a few hours of play sometimes to even hit the feature in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: The pointless emulation thread - fruit machines
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:45 
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devilman wrote:
The main feature does seem to be random on that one - I've won up to £180 on it in the past and then I remember a couple of times where I actually won aboslutely nothing, which was gutting considering it can take a few hours of play sometimes to even hit the feature in the first place.


Yeah I had exactly the same experience with that game.

Once you start collecting the passports you feel compelled to keep playing it until you've got the lot, and then the feature itself can be absolutely rubbish.

Think it did a big fat fuck all for me once too as well, hit a TRAP straight away on the first location, and then Lara got her arse kicked by the baddy tart in the fight.

As ever with Microgaming slots though, peerless production values.


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