Be Excellent To Each Other

I guess the line I draw is between the occasional genuine accident (e.g. parcel eaten by sorting OMNOMNOM machine) and total outright fuckwitted manouvers like faking the customers signature. I find the former annoying but understandable, and the latter utterly infuriating.

Signing for a package at the start of the round is simple, pure, fraud.

I'll double check the definition but I think fraud requires the perpetrator to be making (or trying to make) some sort of monetary gain for himself.

He's representing the company who ARE making monetary gain (namely avoiding the need to refund you for lack of meeting guaranteed delivery time).

I'm pretty sure that for fraud you have to intend for that monetary gain, though. The delivery boke's motiviation isn't making more money for the company, it's laziness.

What if it were a company mandated action? Could you somehow hold the company as a whole guilty of fraud?

I think it's similar to with manslaughter - there has to be a "controlling mind" of a sufficiently senior status who is responsible. That's the problem with companies - they're a "legal person", but they're not "natural persons" like you or I (but not Craster), so they can't form the necessary "guilty mind" aspect of a crime* without having, as it were, a mind of their own. That's where the controlling mind fudge comes in. The board of directors or other senior management near that level determine what the company, as a whole, does, so they're substituted for the brain. However, it means they basically need to have had direct knowledge of the specific thing you're trying to charge them with.

I'm not entirely up on exactly how it works with fraud rather htan manslaughter (had to look into that a while ago), but I can't think of a single example of where a company itself has been convicted of fraud.

HOWEVER - if the MD of royal mail sent out a memo to all posties telling them to forge signatures to save on refund costs, yeah, that'd be fraud. But they'd probably just do the MD for it, rather than the company.

*Except for strict liabiltiy crimes, most crimes require you to have (a) done something and (b) intended to do it

But they have done something. They claim via forging my signature to have carried out a service (ie, delivering the item before 1pm) which they did not carry out. Craig paid for a service which they did not provide, but fraudulently provided proof for by signing in my name.

Why does attempted murder exist, anyway? I shoot a gun at you and get a reduced sentence because I miss? Why does the legal system reward this incompetence?

It's the "they" that trips this up, though. The "they" in this instance was a lazy posty, not the company itself. The company isn't its employees, and so unless it directs its employees to forge signatures (or is aware of it and doesn't stop it) the company has done nothing wrong. And the posty hasn't committed "fraud" as he hasn't done anything for his personal monetary gain or with the intention of making a monetary gain for the company.

Sorry, Meems, but rather than being a cirminal issue this is just one of lazy, incompetent staff. Isn't there a "Postwatch" regulator that could get interested in this sort of thing?

Because they'd far rather that you missed?

If I mess up at my job and break the FSA regulations, it is my company who get hacked to pieces and fined massively by the regulator. Whilst this sort of agrees with what you said, it means that there'd be a case for action against the mail service, as they are responsible for the behaviour of their employees.

Either way, if Craig complains, he is bound to get some form of monetary compensation, even if it is just his postage costs back.

EDIT - Also, if the guy said they do this a lot, it's clearly a practice accepted by the company, ergo they are to blame.

What about forgery? Surely the postie is guilty of that?

I did mention before that when I phoned up to enquire about this I was told that signing for packages at the beginning of a round was quite a common practice - that they did it in case they didn't finish the round on time. He didn't say that they condoned this, but he didn't say otherwise, either. he said it wasn't exactly great for the customer, but... I supposed he gets paid to do his job, and he isn't actually doing his job but forging people's signatures to falsely prove that he has performed the tasks laid out by the job.

I don't think it is a criminal matter, I wouldn't have the time nor energy to do anything about it if it was - I have my item now, so at least that's something. I will encourage Craig to claim for the Recorded delivery compensation, though - he had a contract that they'd deliver it prior to 1pm, they did not, he's entitled to his money back.

Postwatch are useless. I had a terrible, terrible bout of post theft one year. I never received any birthday cards (boo-hoo) until about New Year when 17 slit open cards found their way to my door. I got nowhere with the sorting office, no apology or anything. I eventually contacted postwatch and after about a month I got a letter saying that they'd passed my letter on to the sorting office, even though I contacted postwatch to explain that the sorting office refused to deal with the matter.

The gargantuan FSA Rules are a different kettle of fish though, and (from memory) specifically state that authorised firms are responsible for X Y and Z, including certain acts of their employees. The criminal law on fraud is somewhat less specific.



I'm not sure that's a crime in and of itself, though. My criminal law textbook is at home so I can't check righ tnow. Google me do, perhaps.

Cor, well, you've had a shitty time of it with them, haven't you? Sorry, mate.

I'd definitely claim for the Recorded compensation tohugh. And a letter to the relevant chap's manager might be a good way to get the posty in trouble?

Saving money is making money.



Yes potentially but more likely just fined under some other law.



Yes it is, which is why maintenance company bosses were found guilty of manslaughter after train crashes despite the fact they certainly didn't fit faulty track pieces themselves.

Absolutely, but that was down to a policy that neglected essential safety maintenance. As Mr Chris said earlier, if you could demonstrate that Royal Mail had a policy of telling their employees to fill out the cards themselves, you'd have a case. Otherwise the postie is acting on his own initiative.

If the company knows about the practice and does nothing to stop it, then that is collusion (or similar).

I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing that that's the posty's motivaiton. Unless he intends to save the company money you don't even have the beginnings of a fraud case against him.

Do we have a case for finding him and punching him in the back of the head for being a pain?

Yes, Squirt. I can cite the case law on that, too.

Common Sense v. Lazy Good For Nothing Fuckers Who As Well As Thinking It's Their God-Given Right To Be Lazy And Incompetent Believe They Should Be Striking About Keeping Their Out Of Date Skiving-Off Perks [1856] 2 All ER 256

9.7/10.

Nooooooo!



Also:



On route?

Ah. Well you didn't really want it that urgently did you?

Not particularly, but I did want it!

Uh-oh... Citylink?

Did the goods arrive, or do you have any clue of where they might be?

The goods have been loaded onto a van, apparently. But I'm at work, anyway, so unless someone at home takes delivery*, it's all irrelevant.

If it does get delivered, I'll more than likely get another "What the fuck is this massive parcel?" phone call again. I really punish these delivery companies.


*if City Link even bother trying, natch**.

**haven't used that word in a while. Seems more of a WoS thing now.

It is, so passe...

obv

Hm. I was never one to keep up with any times.

Holy shit, it has been delivered.

From a sacred cow FTFY

Malc

I ordered something from the website dealtastic. They use a courier called Hermes (Fry and Leela obviously on holiday). It would apear they have a perfect scam set up, DT state, we can take up to 20 days to deleiver, do not contact us until that time has ended. Hermes state, if you don't answer, we keep your stuff.
I have a tracking number, and allegedly, there has been two attempted deliveries, neither time has a card been left. (Also, it is easily small enough to fit through the letter box).
Now, I tired to contact Hermes through their website, guess what? They won't talk to me, as it is nothing to do with them, and I have to contact the people who posted the parcel. WTF? Basically, they can just steal my stuff!

I ordered through Paypal, so am considering just trying to claim the money back through them.

Anyone used, or even heard of Hermes before?

They can't just steal what belongs to you... that's illegal surely?

We get stuff delivered from Hermes when we order from next. They aren't too bad. Certainly no hdnl/yodel anyway in my experience.

Well, I take it back, they deliver on Saturdays. However, the courier did say, this was my last chance. At nio point did he leave a contact card through my letterbox.

I mentioned in B&B that I needed the ice age dvds for today, well I hear the letterbox go think "shit, not here" go downstairs to see and red redelivery card by the door, dogs didn't bark so no knock was made. Fucking Saturday postman strikes again. Also I swear royal mail used to redeliver on a Monday if you missed on Saturday - not any more.

Delivery from a fun new courier company today, DPD (who are apparently part of La Poste). Apparently lobbing a box quite clearly labelled fragile over the side gate in the pouring rain is "Leaving your parcel in a secure place - your rear porch".

We use them. They are pretty shocking.

A few months ago, a postie left one of my parcels in next door's empty wheelie bin, presumably because it was pissing down and he couldn't be arsed knocking (I was in). I had to tip the bin upside down to get at it, as it was layed flat at the bottom, and I was rewarded with a handful of black sludge.

Huh. I like DPD, but I get stuff delivered to work I suppose.

We ordered raspberry canes from Suttons. They eventually turned up... at Hel's old house, during its clean-out for her ex selling it. Apparently if you order online from them after moving, the system fucks up and uses the original address (despite the invoice and everything having the correct one). They know about it, but seemingly can't be bothered fixing it.

Of course, if Yodel hadn't just dumped the box in the alley down the side of the house it might have become apparent earlier.

Amazon use HDNL for most stuff for us now, because of Prime, and those bastards leave stuff with a neighbour... without carding us. Every single bloody time. So the neighbours wait for us to come and pick stuff up... and we don't, because we don't know it's been delivered, or where. But usually stuff gets delivered to work where it's not a problem, so Prime's still worth it.

You're not looking at it from a client point of view. They are terrible.

I sent an iMac off for repair last week and it was picked up by the fattest man I have ever met in an APC Overnight van. I asked for a receipt and he said "Nah, mate. We don't do paperwork". Bit nervewracking that, but thankfully Apple acknowledged delivery the next day.

At least you got your black sludge in the end.

What? Yes I am! Stuff for me, delivered to work instead of home. I like that they email an hour in which the parcel will be delivered, that they haven't missed yet.

I'll be more concerned about having stuff delivered to home by them now.

Meet lots of fat men in APC overnight vans, do we?

You're not sending stuff out then? Because that's who the couriers have their contract with.

More than I'd like to admit to.

As we don't have a 'courier praise' thread I'll stick this here. Ordered a new phone yesterday and tracked it via the DHL website up to the expected point of delivery failure because I'm at work rather than at home. Fearing the usual nonsense, and having already worked out a train + taxi route to their nearest depot, I phoned them up to check my options. It turns out that DHL have contracts with what they call Service Points; which are other businesses like Homebase stores, WH Smiths and, most bizarrely, local newagents. If your delivery fails you just nominate any one of these service points and they'll redeliver there the next day. They'll even send you a text/email to let you know when your package has arrived and ready for pick-up. So rather than fucking around with taxis in Paisley I just walk from my work up to a Trongate newsagent (which is open until 11 at night!) and get my phone. Also, when I phoned DHL up to sort all this, I was through to an incredibly cheerful, helpful, English-speaking Real Life Human Being within two minutes of dialing the number. Holy shit.