Be Excellent To Each Other

Loudmouth drunks who've lived there longer.

I said I disagreed, so I didn't ignore it at all. I used the example of an ill-informed drunk to demonstrate that living somewhere longer confers no automatic 'greater insight' as implied.

I'd actually argue the reverse in some instances, with regard to the 'argument to emotion' as mentioned before. You can go back and actually read what I said if you like, rather than me repeating myself.

It's almost the other way round I guess. Your experience of Scotland from historically living there or not is probably less important than the fact that if you do live there now, the vote will have a greater impact on your FUTURE than if you don't.

I feel that throughout this entire thread you've consistently characterised Yes voters in general as stupid, ignorant, loud-mouthed, selfish idiots. You may not have specifically said all Yes voters share those characteristics but you've certainly done little to make anyone reading your posts believe otherwise either. I believe you've taken the fact that few Yes voters have actually posted in this thread as carte blanche to not only keep doing this but to ramp it up over time. It's made this entire thread a low-level irritation to read and has massively contributed to my own decision to rarely join in the discussion. I'm not going to dig through the entire thread to pull out specific examples and go ten rounds with you on it because I simply don't care enough about it and because it'll no doubt be a miserable angry negative experience for all concerned. You may take as evidence of the flimsiness of my argument if you wish of course.

I'll save you some time and point you to this, which is an accurate representation of what I think of some Yes voters.

I make it pretty clear that I see there to be two types, one of which I merely think are wrong, and the others who I think are irrecoverably idiotic, selfish, dimwitted twats. For this I make no apology.

Yeah, and why people like Sean Connery, who live in the Bahamas, can piss off telling us how to vote. Worse still are those that say they might move back if it goes independent. It strikes me as profoundly dishonest to bang on about how much you love your country, except you definitely don't want to live there and support it unless it makes itself more appealing to you.

To answer Kern's dad I think quite a lot of EU citizens will vote, although again depends on the individual. Most people I've spoken to who are aware enough that the referendum is happening will also be choosing to vote.

That's not really all other things being equal though. Not unless gnomes is a drunk too.

Subtle

I wouldn't mind quite so much, but compared to your average frothing cybernat I'm downright tame. As if general disdain for the opposing view is the worst opinion one can hold.

I am sorry if you feel that way Bamba. This forum is possibly a bad place to vent my opinion, because it's usually on the back of reading the mad rantings of cybernats and their ilk. I cannot help but hold the whole mentality of that side of the campaign in absolute contempt. Because they are the most visible, most vocal, and most distasteful, it's very difficult to remember that there are some truly not sure people out there that might lean towards what they believe is a chance for a better future.

I don't do people down for wanting that, except that I don't think this is the way. I repeat again that I'd happily vote Yes and leave the UK behind if I thought the evidence held up to proper scrutiny.

I think certain people have massively and divisively upped the ante in this whole process, and that's deeply unfortunate. None of us are saints, myself very much included, but no-one outside of perhaps a dozen or so peeps on this obscure little forum give two hoots what the likes of 'ElephantBanjoGnome' or 'Captain Caveman' have to say in the matter, whereas that certainly isn't the case out there in the wider media and blogosphere.

Whatever side of the argument one happens to sit, the question has to be asked: what sort of Scotland is it going to be at the (final) end of this (imo) ridiculously long drawn out 'neverendum'? It could be a case of no winners, all losers?

If it has invigorated political debate in Scotland, and got people who previously didn't care about politics into thinking about the future of the country (Scotland or UK, I'm leaving this ambiguous) and realising that politics and voting matters, it all won't have been entirely in vain.

I think it has rather inculcated a deeper 'us vs. them' divide along borders and internally in Scotland. Regardless of the outcome, people will be making a note how others voted, and remember. Bitching about this will probably never stop in one form or another.

Really very late to the 'Heroes' party, but we've blitzed the first series and are a few episodes into the secnd. How adorable are Hiro and Ando?

Eh?

This is Mimi's cunning take on the independence debate. Clearly Hiro represents David Cameron, who wants to stop time in its tracks, and Ando as Alex Salmond, who wants to be a Hero but frustratingly doesn't have any powers and somewhat resents Hiro because of it.

Stop watching it now, Mimi.

Just spat half-chewed bachelor pizza over my keyboard. Bravo!

Bravo!

Nonsense! Watch all of Heroes. All of the one series they ever made.

At what point do you feel that stops being dishonest? When the country has laws imposed on it like dismantling and privatising the NHS, which wouldn't happen if it was ruled differently? When the country is dragged into illegal wars and is the home base for nuclear weapons? What about if the country was forced to live in a United Kingdom which decided to abolish all welfare support and completely disband the NHS? Or if the country is run by a government who stop all immigration, scrap equality laws, introduce more police powers.. What about if you live in Russia, or Syria, or Israel and decide to move abroad and not return until there is political change?
Please note I'm in no way saying that these situations are real, I'm exaggerating the situation to test your point. I'm sure there are plenty of Scottish people abroad who love their country but living away from it until the political situation changes isn't dishonest.

Hmm yes, all of that exaggerated gibberish of a totalitarian police state might have retained a molecule of applicability of Sean Connery wasn't fabulously rich and beyond the reach of most socioeconomic problems that might compel the average person to live in England.

In other news, Yes campaigners doing their best to ensure a fair and reasoned debate, with Salmond attempting to draw a false equivalence with allegedly similar antics from Unionists. Funny how you can't find any videos of a group of No supporters aggressively hecking Yessers, isn't it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-28986714

This the bit I'd take issue with Gilly. Are we really saying there are "plenty" of Scottish people who are political refugees? From the UK? Forced to live somewhere else in the world, against their wishes, specifically because the political regime within this country is so utterly appalling? (It does also rather beg the question where they would live in that case, too, and I doubt Connery's example has to do with anything other than he doesn't want to pay punitive UK tax rates to help fellow Scots less fortunate than him, and consequently is living a very nice lifestyle in the sun... my heart doesn't exactly bleed for him I have to say, and under the circumstances find his interventions somewhat unfortunate).

I just don't buy it, honestly. I'd go further; these sort of claims (not by you, but I've heard plenty of this shrill stuff throughout this debate) is frankly an insult to those who really *do* struggle against such regimes, suffering greatly, living as refugees (my father was one of them).

The other thing that vaguely narks me is the extent to which the UK is under-appreciated. There are several foreign countries that I've visited and practically kissed the ground on my return home. We have so many things that are done right, and exemplify a highly developed country, both economically and socially.

Pop to China for a couple of weeks, take a look around, and then come home and moan about the UK. I came home thinking I lived in the best country in the world. The things we piss and moan about on a daily basis are bloody piffling compared to others.

I wondered why my post in the US TV thread wasn't there this evening, assumed I'd closed the browser without pressing submit. Russell told me to read this thread. Thanks for the advice, Grim... I rake it that the first series is the high point.

Anyway, Scotland.

I was reading a piece on Scottish shoppers today. Scottish people are far more likely to take preference for products beating a made in (Scotland) sticker than other parts of the UK are to buying ones with their own country of origin (ie, english buying 'made in England', especially when buying sausages, or the Welsh, Welsh.

So there is a higher degree of sausage racism in Scotland.

Scottish people also require a less extensive range of bread varieties in their shops.

At the risk of replying to everything in this thread.... you're not wrong Mimi. I mentioned it earlier in this thread. The 'Made in Scotland' and the 'Scottish-' prefix to products is everywhere, with flags all over the place. 'Scottish Tea', with the sub-slogan 'Best brewed with Scottish water'.

Even the sandwiches sold at work say on them 'Proudly made in Scotland!'.

The prevalence of this always struck me as odd, but is demonstrative of how even basic marketing tries to capitalise on the heightened sense of national patriotism.

There is also a factor of attempting to keep the money in Scotland (ownership of any given company aside). Which I think the UK in general doesn't do enough of.

I have every sympathy for anyone wanting to vote yes because they fear for the future of Scotland if they are dragged haplessly along with the rest of us into a UKIP-lead lunge to the fucking lunatic end of the right wing spectrum, as appears to be an ever more realistic scenario.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying, EBG made a really sweeping statement about people who live abroad who say they'd return home if we got independance are dishonest. I was asking what the tolerances are on that, in an attempt to highlight how completely absurd he was being.


Here's where I tried to make that clear. My first couple of example were current political realities that some Scottish people may find unpalatable. The further examples were the far side of the spectrum, to show that EBG's statement clearly can't be considered reasonable in all instances, and I was hoping he would explain at what point it stops being dishonest.
You can find yourself wanting to live in another country without being personally politically persecuted. I wasn't commenting on Sean Connery at all.


This is why I've avoided discussion in this thread. I asked you a question about where you draw the line and you insult my intelligence by ignoring the obvious point I was making, picking out the extreme example I'd made as part of that point and ignore the rest.

You're strawmanning some bizarre counter here. There is no likening of the UK to countries of extreme political unrest where its citizens may want to leave because of their unbearable conditions. Those actually seeking asylum can hardly be considered dishonest when to actually have it granted, they would need to demonstrate the actual risk of serious prosecution or risk of death.

Where does the line stop? Right at around the part you try to compare Scotland to such countries. Vague, nebulous displeasure at the UK government policy towards Scotland isn't on the same planet to such a comparison. I hope that satisfies whatever aspect of the point you were making.

I was talking about Sean Connery however, and why he can piss off. You can't expand that specific argument against such people (i.e. wealthy expats who have left the UK for tax breaks/weather/lifestyle) to anyone who leaves Scotland for any reason, however:

There's a great irony somewhere in moving to England for better prospects, while simultaneously demanding political rights over a country you chose to leave. It's not like there are no jobs in Scotland, or that you have to leave Scotland to gain employment. You might not get as fancy a job, or be paid as much, but if you're claiming a profound love for your country, I'll assume assume you're not so mercenary to care about that above all else. If you moved for wealth, and would only move back for at least equivalent wealth in the event of independence, I can't think of anything more dishonest.

Connery is a particularly incredible example because he wouldn't move back regardless, because the wealth/prosperity factor doesn't apply to him as it might others, rendering his Bahamas-based pontificating even more unwelcome.

I guess I just find it very difficult to understand - consider it absurd even - the supposed notion of how "plenty" of people could say they're compelled to live somewhere else on the globe, when they'd much rather be at home, purely because the 'political situation' in the UK is *that* intolerable. As EBJ quite correctly notes imo, the UK is one of the best, most tolerant places to live on Earth - fact.

I hate Labour - their lies, hypocrisy and above all sheer ineptitude, not just within the economic sphere (so much is painfully empirically obvious), but just about all the others as well, be it foreign policy, welfare, defence procurement, management of public funds/big project management, health, education, the EU, industry, even farming policy FFS. I can't tell you what it was like for someone like me, who could see the writing on the wall years before everything went absolutely tits up (and very nearly my livelihood with it that I'd worked so inhumanly hard for). Thirteen long and desperate years - relatively speaking. At no point, though, did it occur to me to uproot myself and my family to some overseas destination over it, and I'm much more politically aware/engaged than the vast, apathetic majority of people.

I think I'll leave it there as I'm not trying to annoy you, but we're simply worlds apart. As indeed I am from the vast majority here.

I suppose I should have responded to this part? 'Dismantling the NHS' and 'Illegal wars' are subjective political rhetoric. Some people actively support being a home base for an independent nuclear deterrent - I'm one of them, and it's a valid opinion to have.

Let's say this theoretical person morally objected to all of those things and wanted to move back to Scotland because it suddenly had no nukes, and promised never to support any wars. That really wouldn't work if they'd moved to rUK, because clearly their original move wasn't in objection to those things. So how is that more honest? Why did they then leave in the first place if not for preferential prosperity? Genuine question there - since my generalisations are so unjustifiable I'll need you to present some alternative explanations that we can discuss, rather than just calling me wrong.

I think the instances where people have moved out of Scotland purely in objection to the political policy of the UK, and would only come back to Scotland if it separated and 'cleansed' itself of those things they didn't like, are in non-existent minority.

I sometimes wonder why I post here about these things. It's not to have lots of people agree with me, which it doesn't seem they do. Or they might somewhat agree, but they don't like the blunt way I phrase things and would rather not identify with that. Or they might be entirely indifferent to everything I say. Who knows?

Well, in my case I've been the forum dissident for two principal reasons:

1. I like the people here despite being chalk and cheese with seemingly all of them, most especially in political terms

2. It's good to have people challenge your ideas - I've been battered here more times than I care to remember and have changed a good deal over the years, actually as a direct result

I do worry from time to time that it'd be better if I just pissed off (again lol) and let people enjoy their conversations without my inadvertent spoke in the wheel.

Not one of my RL friends is a Tory. Suppose that says something about me, and them.

I have to say, I have absolutely no interest in frequenting a forum where everyone agrees with me. No doubt I could find such a place but I wouldn't see the point. Nor would I like to go to a forum where everyone would fall upon every word I say with angry venom.

I suppose this satisfies a middle-ground where I expect some agreement and some argument, and in this way I can refine thoughts in my own mind. I can certainly have my mind changed but I clearly benefit from a variety of sounding boards.

Cavey & EBG should come to the cottage.

Now that the results have been released in a certain newspaper, I can tell you that we asked over 30,000 people from north of the border how they'd vote and it was 53% no, 47% yes.

That's mighty close!

That's democracy for you. Half the people will end up miserable.

The closer the polls get, the better for the 'no' campaign. Sounds illogical, but only if defeat isn't seen as secure will people come out and vote against it.

That said, I still think somewhere around mid-50s for No in the final result is the most likely outcome. But 16 days to go. Sweepstake, anyone?

I still feel slightly uncomfortable that major constitutional change can happen on simple majority vote, but I guess the memories of the poll in '79 probably still lingers. One would hope that both sides would accept the outcome, especially if it's 'yes', but if it's close, both sides might carry on their grudges.

It's not true democracy unless everyone in unhappy with the result.

That's ok, whoever loses will be able to moan about it for the rest of their life like some kind of badge of honour.

I'm more interested in what the turnout will be. Predictably a load of morons have left it til the last minute before realising they'd have to do that, and so councils are struggling with the backlog.

"That"..?

There was an invisible sentence there that said 'Register to vote', I swear.

Yeah, fuck all those people up until now entirely disengaged from a moribund political system who are realising that - for perhaps the first time in their lives - they can make a genuine, meaningful decision about how their lives may be governed in a poll where it looks like their ballot may actually matter; and so are registering to vote. Morons. Who do they think they are?

Morons who left it until the last minute, presumably.

As usual, a fine contribution to the discussion.

The point, Stephen, is that they've had this awareness tediously reinforced from every possible form of media over the last 18 months, and have still left it until the very last minute before it actually occurring to them that they need to register. Morons, yes.

Was that it or do you have any other gems of insight?

Much safer to assume that I consider anyone wanting to vote moronic. That position would make no sense, but it also wouldn't fit into Stephen's narrative of how terribly unreasonable everything I say is.

And perhaps the fact that the same media has told them it's more or less a waste of time and the "silent majority" will vote no anyway for the same period (while trotting out the previously discussed portents of doom if on the off chance the vote goes otherwise) has something to do with their (perhaps) wilful disenfranchisement? I'm not claiming in any way that leaving it so late is defensible; merely your sneering at people being "morons" for doing so.

And if you weren't so much of a pompous, conceited cunt about anyone who dares to express an alternative view, then perhaps you'd find my occasional contributions (sorry, "gems of insight" that you're so generously inviting) would necessarily be slightly less combative.

As that's exactly what I said. I said you were calling everyone morons. For fuck's sake.