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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 0:20 
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sdg wrote:
You can find yourself wanting to live in another country without being personally politically persecuted.


I guess I just find it very difficult to understand - consider it absurd even - the supposed notion of how "plenty" of people could say they're compelled to live somewhere else on the globe, when they'd much rather be at home, purely because the 'political situation' in the UK is *that* intolerable. As EBJ quite correctly notes imo, the UK is one of the best, most tolerant places to live on Earth - fact.

I hate Labour - their lies, hypocrisy and above all sheer ineptitude, not just within the economic sphere (so much is painfully empirically obvious), but just about all the others as well, be it foreign policy, welfare, defence procurement, management of public funds/big project management, health, education, the EU, industry, even farming policy FFS. I can't tell you what it was like for someone like me, who could see the writing on the wall years before everything went absolutely tits up (and very nearly my livelihood with it that I'd worked so inhumanly hard for). Thirteen long and desperate years - relatively speaking. At no point, though, did it occur to me to uproot myself and my family to some overseas destination over it, and I'm much more politically aware/engaged than the vast, apathetic majority of people.

I think I'll leave it there as I'm not trying to annoy you, but we're simply worlds apart. As indeed I am from the vast majority here.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 0:24 
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sdg wrote:
When the country has laws imposed on it like dismantling and privatising the NHS, which wouldn't happen if it was ruled differently? When the country is dragged into illegal wars and is the home base for nuclear weapons?

I suppose I should have responded to this part? 'Dismantling the NHS' and 'Illegal wars' are subjective political rhetoric. Some people actively support being a home base for an independent nuclear deterrent - I'm one of them, and it's a valid opinion to have.

Let's say this theoretical person morally objected to all of those things and wanted to move back to Scotland because it suddenly had no nukes, and promised never to support any wars. That really wouldn't work if they'd moved to rUK, because clearly their original move wasn't in objection to those things. So how is that more honest? Why did they then leave in the first place if not for preferential prosperity? Genuine question there - since my generalisations are so unjustifiable I'll need you to present some alternative explanations that we can discuss, rather than just calling me wrong.

I think the instances where people have moved out of Scotland purely in objection to the political policy of the UK, and would only come back to Scotland if it separated and 'cleansed' itself of those things they didn't like, are in non-existent minority.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 0:29 
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Cavey wrote:
As indeed I am from the vast majority here.

:hat:

I sometimes wonder why I post here about these things. It's not to have lots of people agree with me, which it doesn't seem they do. Or they might somewhat agree, but they don't like the blunt way I phrase things and would rather not identify with that. Or they might be entirely indifferent to everything I say. Who knows? :)

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 0:46 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
I sometimes wonder why I post here about these things. It's not to have lots of people agree with me, which it doesn't seem they do. Or they might somewhat agree, but they don't like the blunt way I phrase things and would rather not identify with that. Or they might be entirely indifferent to everything I say. Who knows? :)


Well, in my case I've been the forum dissident for two principal reasons:

1. I like the people here despite being chalk and cheese with seemingly all of them, most especially in political terms

2. It's good to have people challenge your ideas - I've been battered here more times than I care to remember and have changed a good deal over the years, actually as a direct result

I do worry from time to time that it'd be better if I just pissed off (again lol) and let people enjoy their conversations without my inadvertent spoke in the wheel.

Not one of my RL friends is a Tory. Suppose that says something about me, and them.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:01 
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I have to say, I have absolutely no interest in frequenting a forum where everyone agrees with me. No doubt I could find such a place but I wouldn't see the point. Nor would I like to go to a forum where everyone would fall upon every word I say with angry venom.

I suppose this satisfies a middle-ground where I expect some agreement and some argument, and in this way I can refine thoughts in my own mind. I can certainly have my mind changed but I clearly benefit from a variety of sounding boards.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:47 
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Cavey & EBG should come to the cottage.


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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:23 
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Now that the results have been released in a certain newspaper, I can tell you that we asked over 30,000 people from north of the border how they'd vote and it was 53% no, 47% yes.

That's mighty close!

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:29 
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Grim... wrote:
Now that the results have been released in a certain newspaper, I can tell you that we asked over 30,000 people from north of the border how they'd vote and it was 53% no, 47% yes.

That's mighty close!

That's democracy for you. Half the people will end up miserable.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:31 
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The closer the polls get, the better for the 'no' campaign. Sounds illogical, but only if defeat isn't seen as secure will people come out and vote against it.

That said, I still think somewhere around mid-50s for No in the final result is the most likely outcome. But 16 days to go. Sweepstake, anyone?


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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:37 
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American Nervoso wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Now that the results have been released in a certain newspaper, I can tell you that we asked over 30,000 people from north of the border how they'd vote and it was 53% no, 47% yes.

That's mighty close!

That's democracy for you. Half the people will end up miserable.


I still feel slightly uncomfortable that major constitutional change can happen on simple majority vote, but I guess the memories of the poll in '79 probably still lingers. One would hope that both sides would accept the outcome, especially if it's 'yes', but if it's close, both sides might carry on their grudges.


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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:53 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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It's not true democracy unless everyone in unhappy with the result.


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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:43 
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Trooper wrote:
It's not true democracy unless everyone in unhappy with the result.

That's ok, whoever loses will be able to moan about it for the rest of their life like some kind of badge of honour.

I'm more interested in what the turnout will be. Predictably a load of morons have left it til the last minute before realising they'd have to do that, and so councils are struggling with the backlog.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:04 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Predictably a load of morons have left it til the last minute before realising they'd have to do that

"That"..?

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:05 
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There was an invisible sentence there that said 'Register to vote', I swear.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 15:26 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:

I'm more interested in what the turnout will be. Predictably a load of morons have left it til the last minute before realising they'd have to do that, and so councils are struggling with the backlog.


Yeah, fuck all those people up until now entirely disengaged from a moribund political system who are realising that - for perhaps the first time in their lives - they can make a genuine, meaningful decision about how their lives may be governed in a poll where it looks like their ballot may actually matter; and so are registering to vote. Morons. Who do they think they are?


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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 15:35 
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Morons who left it until the last minute, presumably.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 15:37 
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As usual, a fine contribution to the discussion.

The point, Stephen, is that they've had this awareness tediously reinforced from every possible form of media over the last 18 months, and have still left it until the very last minute before it actually occurring to them that they need to register. Morons, yes.

Was that it or do you have any other gems of insight?

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 15:39 
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Grim... wrote:
Morons who left it until the last minute, presumably.

Much safer to assume that I consider anyone wanting to vote moronic. That position would make no sense, but it also wouldn't fit into Stephen's narrative of how terribly unreasonable everything I say is.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 16:04 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
As usual, a fine contribution to the discussion.

The point, Stephen, is that they've had this awareness tediously reinforced from every possible form of media over the last 18 months, and have still left it until the very last minute before it actually occurring to them that they need to register. Morons, yes.

Was that it or do you have any other gems of insight?


And perhaps the fact that the same media has told them it's more or less a waste of time and the "silent majority" will vote no anyway for the same period (while trotting out the previously discussed portents of doom if on the off chance the vote goes otherwise) has something to do with their (perhaps) wilful disenfranchisement? I'm not claiming in any way that leaving it so late is defensible; merely your sneering at people being "morons" for doing so.

And if you weren't so much of a pompous, conceited cunt about anyone who dares to express an alternative view, then perhaps you'd find my occasional contributions (sorry, "gems of insight" that you're so generously inviting) would necessarily be slightly less combative.


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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 16:05 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Morons who left it until the last minute, presumably.

Much safer to assume that I consider anyone wanting to vote moronic. That position would make no sense, but it also wouldn't fit into Stephen's narrative of how terribly unreasonable everything I say is.


As that's exactly what I said. I said you were calling everyone morons. For fuck's sake.


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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 16:08 
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Stephen wrote:
And if you weren't so much of a pompous, conceited cunt about anyone who dares to express an alternative view, then perhaps you'd find my occasional contributions (sorry, "gems of insight" that you're so generously inviting) would necessarily be slightly less combative.

If you will allow your buttons to be so easily pushed, don't be surprised when I push them so cheerfully.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 16:12 
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Master of dodgy spelling....

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Or you both could just stop :)

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 16:13 
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Apparently being a conceited cunt obsessed with your own opinion is big business these days. Perhaps I should start a blog and then go begging to the slavering nitwits that agree with me.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 16:16 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Apparently being a conceited cunt obsessed with your own opinion is big business these days. Perhaps I should start a blog and then go begging to the slavering nitwits that agree with me.


I thought you had :)

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 16:28 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Stephen wrote:
And if you weren't so much of a pompous, conceited cunt about anyone who dares to express an alternative view, then perhaps you'd find my occasional contributions (sorry, "gems of insight" that you're so generously inviting) would necessarily be slightly less combative.

If you will allow your buttons to be so easily pushed, don't be surprised when I push them so cheerfully.


Great stuff. Post something just haughty enough to potentially rile any who disagree; misinterpret any opposing comments and sigh wearily about the quality of debate (yet always, crucially, maintaining the air of condescension while doing so); and then basically admit to being a fucking arsehole when actually called on it - but imply it's the other person's own fault when answering your previous points for not picking up on said cuntery. Repeat.

Just masterful work.


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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 16:40 
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*takes finger off button*

Your post was not of any worth, Stephen. You tried to imply that I was calling anyone who wants to vote a moron. It is so self-evident that I was not saying that it's beneath me (looking at you, as I do, from my pomposity on high) to actually address such a rudimentary piece of nonsense.

After that you called me a cunt, while blaming me for your own lack of decorum. Circular indeed.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 17:34 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
*takes finger off button*

Your post was not of any worth, Stephen. You tried to imply that I was calling anyone who wants to vote a moron. It is so self-evident that I was not saying that it's beneath me (looking at you, as I do, from my pomposity on high) to actually address such a rudimentary piece of nonsense.

After that you called me a cunt, while blaming me for your own lack of decorum. Circular indeed.


I did not. I specifically made a point of mentioning those who may have previously felt disenfranchised by politics and/or the debate generally - and were perhaps emboldened by recent poll narrowing. I then (exasperatedly) confirmed that your assertion I'd implied you'd called everyone a moron was incorrect and provided further explanation. And yet still you claim I'm misinterpreting.

But let's accept that you're genuinely baffled rather than just tiresomely feigning offence - in the interests of fostering debate. So do clarify. Is it *all* people who're registering late who are morons and worthy of nothing less than your withering contempt (which you say it's not); or just a particular subset (hence my original comments)?

And the cunt calling is another matter entirely. That's just because I think you're a cunt. Apologies if it made my original point less than clear!


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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 17:49 
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Stephen wrote:
So do clarify. Is it *all* people who're registering late who are morons and worthy of nothing less than your withering contempt

Yes.

Stephen wrote:
I said you were calling everyone morons.


Stephen wrote:
I then confirmed that your assertion I'd implied you'd called everyone a moron was incorrect


While it would be remiss of me to deny your assertive confirmation of my implication, it does appear that said implicated statements are contradictory in their specificity, sir.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 17:53 
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Come to the cottage.


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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 17:54 
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Settle it with a game of Quartz Parchment Shears.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 17:54 
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Kern wrote:
Come to the cottage.

Haha, is there any particular reason? To shake my hand, punch my face in, ignore me entirely?

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 19:18 
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Beer, mostly.


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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 20:40 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Stephen wrote:
So do clarify. Is it *all* people who're registering late who are morons and worthy of nothing less than your withering contempt

Yes.

Stephen wrote:
I said you were calling everyone morons.


Stephen wrote:
I then confirmed that your assertion I'd implied you'd called everyone a moron was incorrect


While it would be remiss of me to deny your assertive confirmation of my implication, it does appear that said implicated statements are contradictory in their specificity, sir.


Jesus fuck. Really? The fact that the first statement you posted there was clearly sarcastic and aimed at your taking offence (and appended with "For fuck's sake" to make it clear - never mind the fact it was contradictory to what I'd posted minutes before) wasn't entirely fucking obvious to you? So, in essence, these last few posts between us have been over a misunderstanding. Outstanding.

So let's make it absolutely clear. You're a patronising fuck for calling late registrants morons for all the reasons I mentioned. I have never implied or even intended to suggest you called all voters morons. There's no need for us to tie ourselves in knots here any further.

I might still think you're a cunt but at least the fact we've been arguing over nothing is pretty amusing. The internet, eh?


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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 20:45 
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Get a fucking room, you two.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 21:24 
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Mr Dave wrote:
ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Mr Dave wrote:
Maybe Mr Chris?

Indeed, that MrC. What his username these days?

Mr Kissyfur, I think.

Yes! It was me. I still have some of those letters. Good times.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 22:48 
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Stephen wrote:
Jesus fuck. Really?

Perhaps if you were able to communicate in a more civil manner that wasn't punctuated by swears every other word, your meaning would be more clear. It becomes very difficult to distinguish when you're expressing bitterly offense vs. bitter sarcasm.

Happy to debate with you Stephen, but you'll need to rein (ed.) in the expletives so a discussion can occur. Pompous I may be, but at least you know what I'm saying. Jesus fucking cuntballs.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 22:49 
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rein.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 22:52 
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rain.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 23:03 
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reign!

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 23:03 
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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 23:05 
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It's like Wayne, on your Reading day.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 23:15 
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American Nervoso wrote:
It's like Wayne, on your Reading day.


AWESOME!

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:21 
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The more I read, the more I'm expecting a late swing to the 'Yes' camp.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:25 
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I wouldn't bank on it. Don't confuse loud minority noise-making for majority opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:27 
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Curiosity wrote:
The more I read, the more I'm expecting a late swing to the 'Yes' camp.

I actually expect the reverse. I strongly suspect there will be 11th hour changes where people decide that the devil they know is better than the devil they don't. It's what usually happens.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:30 
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American Nervoso wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
The more I read, the more I'm expecting a late swing to the 'Yes' camp.

I actually expect the reverse. I strongly suspect there will be 11th hour changes where people decide that the devil they know is better than the devil they don't. It's what usually happens.


This.
I'm thinking a lot about 1992: everyone said they'd vote Labour but in the privacy of the voting booth they switched sides. The fear of the unknown is probably going to work to the 'No' side's advantage. Similar to 1992, there does appear to be a sense that people don't want to admit to being 'No', in the way they didn't like admitting voting Tory all those years ago.

Yeah, 10 year old me was very angry with that election result.


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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:49 
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UltraMod

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Would the last person in Scotland please turn out the lights!

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:21 
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Gogmagog

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Not usre if I've said this already, but I really hope it is a YES vote, as it'd be brilliant to see how thigns poan out, and turning down an opportunity would be silly.

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:26 
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Have you installed Mr Dave's keyboard?

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 Post subject: Re: The end of the UK?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:28 
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Gogmagog

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Grim... wrote:
Have you installed Mr Dave's keyboard?


I dunno, either. Had too much tea this morning as stinkpants was creating all fucking night about teeth or a cold or somesuch.

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