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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 15:25 
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Get a time machine?

You might save a few quid by building it yourself, but I don't know if it would be a great deal of money.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 15:26 
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Don't forget the Brexit effect. So where myp says 'I bought a VR spec PC for £1000 18 months ago', the equivalent PC now costs around £1200.

PCS aren't cheap, they use top quality components and cases, do a high quality build, and charge appropriately.

The GTX1070 is a high-end graphics card, maybe drop that down a notch to a 1060. M2 SSDs are expensive, use a standard SATA SSD as your boot drive instead. Pick a cheaper case. Drop the RAM to 16GB. Change the processor to a 1700 instead of a 1700X. Lose the water cooling and use a cheaper air cooler or just the stock AMD cooler. There are lots of nips and tucks you can do to get the price down, but there comes a point where you're compromising on the machine's ability to do what you want.

If you're happy with the machine you've specced up and the price you're paying then it's not 'too expensive', PCS charge fairly for the machines they build and the components they use.

Personally if I were lashing out a serious wedge of cash on a brand new PC, I'd spend the extra to get exactly the machine I wanted.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 16:06 
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Hearthly wrote:

Personally if I were lashing out a serious wedge of cash on a brand new PC, I'd spend the extra to get exactly the machine I wanted.


This is a very good point but you also make some good recommendations on cutting some elements out. I think I'm going to have a play and see if I can get it closer to £1500 inc VAT.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 17:14 
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For work, you might also want to consider backup solutions. The earlier they get them in place the easier it is!

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 22:34 
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I guess you aren't comfortable building your own, TheVision? Using a parts list pretty similar to the one in your original post you can get it for £1500 in PCPartPicker.. Probably cheaper, if you played around with similar components from different companies.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:47 
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http://www.logicalincrements.com/articles/videoediting/

This takes you thtough 5 different builds for Video Editing PC's. Budget - High End

Prices are in $ but it might help you get an idea on if you need to change things with the one your are looking to buy.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:24 
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Thanks asfish. That looks useful!

As for building it myself Cookie, I don't know. How difficult could it be? I built a PC years ago (a Pentium 3 600 I think) but a lot has changed since then. I'd be worried that I hadn't got the cooling right.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:34 
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asfish wrote:
Prices are in $ but it might help you get an idea on if you need to change things with the one your are looking to buy.


Just change the dollar signs to pound signs.

This innovative currency converter is brought to you by Hearthly Technical Industries Ltd.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:43 
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TheVision wrote:
Thanks asfish. That looks useful!

As for building it myself Cookie, I don't know. How difficult could it be? I built a PC years ago (a Pentium 3 600 I think) but a lot has changed since then. I'd be worried that I hadn't got the cooling right.


The amount of money you save on a self-build is negligible to zero, and involves a lot of extra faff, especially if the parts are coming from more than one place. It's one of those things you do because you enjoy it, more than it making any actual sense to do so. (It's not particularly difficult to do, though.)

I'll revisit that machine you specced up at PCS today and post a revised build Vision, see what it's possible to nip and tuck cost wise without compromising on the fundamentals of the machine.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:42 
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Thanks Hearthly. Here's the link to the PC spec above...

https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/saved-co ... xRSKF9S8K/

Like I say, it's going to be used for editing videos mainly with the possibility of playing games... But mainly editing.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:44 
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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:24 
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That's a point, UK.hardware.info regularly updates their pick of specs of various PC types, like 4k, video, budget and so on.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:59 
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TheVision wrote:
Thanks Hearthly. Here's the link to the PC spec above...

https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/saved-co ... xRSKF9S8K/

Like I say, it's going to be used for editing videos mainly with the possibility of playing games... But mainly editing.


Here you go, pretty much the same thing but for £1,276. (It's actually got more SSD storage than your build.)

Remember I've only tried to do a 'match' for your build, in reality for a video editing PC you're going to want 'all the storage', especially if you're intending to work with 4K video, and as Grim... notes you should think about how you're going to back everything up as well, and the cloud ain't an option for video files. (Big external hard drives are the obvious answer.)

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 13:15 
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Don't pair Ryzen with slow ram.

Quick explanation of why.. basically AMD are using something called Infinity Fabric to tie things together. Because of that (and because Ryzen 7 is two quad cores tied together using IF) ram speed makes a massive difference to the IPC. You want 3000mhz ram
No ifs or buts. You will lose 20% performance on 2133 ram. The rather crappy clock speed on Ryzen doesn't help any either.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 13:48 
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TheVision wrote:
Thanks asfish. That looks useful!

As for building it myself Cookie, I don't know. How difficult could it be? I built a PC years ago (a Pentium 3 600 I think) but a lot has changed since then. I'd be worried that I hadn't got the cooling right.

The problem with that is hassle - not with the original build, but if something goes wrong in a month or so.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 13:49 
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There are upsides, though. If a stick of RAM goes bad on a self-build then you pull it out and send it back for a replacement.

If it goes bad on a purchased box you might well have to send the whole thing away.

However, you'd need to be able to identify that it was the RAM that's broken in the first place.

Swings and roundabouts.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 14:14 
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JohnCoffey wrote:
Don't pair Ryzen with slow ram.

Quick explanation of why.. basically AMD are using something called Infinity Fabric to tie things together. Because of that (and because Ryzen 7 is two quad cores tied together using IF) ram speed makes a massive difference to the IPC. You want 3000mhz ram
No ifs or buts. You will lose 20% performance on 2133 ram. The rather crappy clock speed on Ryzen doesn't help any either.


I guess they're playing it safe because of the early RAM compatibility issues that Ryzen had, but yes they should be offering faster RAM than that by now.

20% might be over-egging the pudding a bit though, a quick Google around a raft on benchmarks shows uplifts from as little as 2-3% up to maybe 15-16%, depending on the application/game.

I agree with the basic point though, faster RAM than 2133MHz should be in a new Ryzen build, might be worth Vision asking what the options are if he decides to order, and indeed why they're only offering 2133MHz in those Ryzen systems.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 18:34 
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JohnCoffey wrote:
basically AMD are using something called Infinity Fabric to tie things together.

Should we be calling in the Guardians of the Galaxy?

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 22:40 
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Hearthly wrote:
JohnCoffey wrote:
Don't pair Ryzen with slow ram.

Quick explanation of why.. basically AMD are using something called Infinity Fabric to tie things together. Because of that (and because Ryzen 7 is two quad cores tied together using IF) ram speed makes a massive difference to the IPC. You want 3000mhz ram
No ifs or buts. You will lose 20% performance on 2133 ram. The rather crappy clock speed on Ryzen doesn't help any either.


I guess they're playing it safe because of the early RAM compatibility issues that Ryzen had, but yes they should be offering faster RAM than that by now.

20% might be over-egging the pudding a bit though, a quick Google around a raft on benchmarks shows uplifts from as little as 2-3% up to maybe 15-16%, depending on the application/game.

I agree with the basic point though, faster RAM than 2133MHz should be in a new Ryzen build, might be worth Vision asking what the options are if he decides to order, and indeed why they're only offering 2133MHz in those Ryzen systems.


Games, not so much. As you say, 3-10% max. Cinebench and rendering however?

At 4.6ghz my 5820k (6 core Haswell 12 threads) makes about 1200 points. My 8 core 16t Ivybridge Xeon @ 3.4ghz makes about 1150.

With 2133 ram @ 4ghz a Ryzen 1700 (non X) makes about 1450 points. With 3000mhz ram it does 1700 easy. Same applies to handbrake.. It's mostly when you use all 8 cores. Games do not do so, but The Witcher 3 has been sorted so has Rise Of The Tomb Raider. In those games it does make a difference, all the way up to 3200 when the memory controller becomes flaky and starts to slope off.

But yeah, 4ghz tops is pretty damn lame, so you want to extract every last bit of performance you can. And in real world apps like virtual machines etc it makes a massive difference.

To add. Ryzen works like a dual CPU rig. So there are basically two separate units that are tied together with IF. Dual socket systems suffer from latency between the CPUs. So that's basically what this IF thing is, a way to tie things together and bring down the latency. Threadripper will be even worse, because you now have 4 quad core units. So the faster your ram goes the faster the "bridge" between the two CPUs goes. The latency drops, and the performance really improves. ATM it's limited to like two games and anything that wants all of the cores and threads. But AMD are really working at it, and I think they have a fighting chance this time IMO. Loads of my mates have switched to Ryzen or finally ditched their raging X58 rigs and upgraded to Ryzen.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:03 
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You probably want to spend some good money on a decent power cable and monitor cable

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:43 
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Sir Taxalot wrote:
You probably want to spend some good money on a decent power cable and monitor cable


Not sure if serious or not.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:19 
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KovacsC wrote:
Sir Taxalot wrote:
You probably want to spend some good money on a decent power cable and monitor cable


Not sure if serious or not.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:31 
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KovacsC wrote:
Sir Taxalot wrote:
You probably want to spend some good money on a decent power cable and monitor cable


Not sure if serious or not.


I'm sure there is someone on here with experience of expensive cables

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:32 
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>:(

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 13:33 
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Thanks for the help Hearthly. The PC you specced looks good to me and it looks like it'll do everything I need but still leave me some money to buy more storage.

One question though.. Would it make much of a difference to increase the RAM to 32gb?


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 13:45 
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Video editing (in Premier Pro, at least) likes to store loads of stuff in RAM, so it'll help. If you put your scratch drive on the SSD it'll be pretty fast, though.

You could start with 16GB and then buy more if you think it could be quicker?

And send it back it it's not ;)

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 0:40 
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Spec of the box is important, but what about the bits you see & touch...

Have you got a good monitor, Vision? Is the colour good, is it big enough, and with a high enough resolution to give you all the controls you need on screen without switching around? Simply, are you happy editing on it, and would you be happy doing MOAR editing on it? Do you want/have two monitors so you look pro?

Also chair, etc - if you are going to be pushing this, you'll be sat there a lot more, so you need to be comfy.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 21:55 
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Sir Taxalot wrote:
Spec of the box is important, but what about the bits you see & touch...

Have you got a good monitor, Vision? Is the colour good, is it big enough, and with a high enough resolution to give you all the controls you need on screen without switching around? Simply, are you happy editing on it, and would you be happy doing MOAR editing on it? Do you want/have two monitors so you look pro?

Also chair, etc - if you are going to be pushing this, you'll be sat there a lot more, so you need to be comfy.


All very good questions! My current monitor isn't great so I'll be upgrading that. I'll probably end up with two just for reasons. As for my desk and chair, yes. They're great. I won them both in a charity raffle at work a few years ago and they were really expensive at the time so there's no problems there. They're comfier than sitting in my living room!


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:50 
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I don't think I'd want to work with just one monitor anymore - I've got so used to having two.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:30 
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Sir Taxalot wrote:
I don't think I'd want to work with just one monitor anymore - I've got so used to having two.

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