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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:24 
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Hearthly wrote:
... unless you know you're going to be using it for serious video/image work ...

Well, there you go.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:28 
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Bamba wrote:
Also, is the general consensus that Ryzen is the way to go? I was under the impression that it hadn't actually lived up to expectations and the i7 chipset was still the best if you were spending the money (which you clearly are here)?


For a pure gaming machine Intel is still best, but once you get into multi-threaded work Ryzen really shines. (And Ryzen doesn't lag much behind i5/i7 in games, either.)


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:34 
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DavPaz wrote:
Hearthly wrote:
... unless you know you're going to be using it for serious video/image work ...

Well, there you go.


Good spot ;)

Good point on the SSD though Bamba. I could just drop it in there couldn't I? See? This is why I come here for advice!


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:40 
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TheVision wrote:
Good point on the SSD though Bamba. I could just drop it in there couldn't I? See? This is why I come here for advice!


It depends if you want to be faffing about putting old parts into a shiny brand new PC, potentially messing up the lovely cable management and/or invalidating your warranty (I'd check with PCS on that), also the old SSD may well be quite a bit slower than a brand new one. (I don't know the specs of your existing SSD, of course.)

When you're spending proper new PC cash, to my mind it makes sense to just go for a clean sweep of new stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:41 
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That strikes me as a lot of money.

Where's it going?

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:46 
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Grim... wrote:
That strikes me as a lot of money.

Where's it going?


Where is the money going or where is the PC going?

The money will be going to PC specialist.. the PC will be going under my desk.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:49 
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Grim... wrote:
That strikes me as a lot of money.

Where's it going?


That's how much a reasonably specced new PC costs. The Brexit vote hasn't helped since everything costs 15-20% more than it did a year ago.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:54 
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It's twice the cost of the one I bought yesterday, and I can't really see where the extra money has gone.

Also, if this is for work, you really want RAID 1 on both drives.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:56 
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Grim... wrote:
It's twice the cost of the one I bought yesterday, and I can't really see where the extra money has gone.

Also, if this is for work, you really want RAID 1 on both drives.


Twice the price? Where did you get yours from Grim...

Also, imagine for a second that I'm a total noob and don't know what RAID 1 is. Can you explain it?


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:59 
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TheVision wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
Hearthly wrote:
... unless you know you're going to be using it for serious video/image work ...

Well, there you go.


Good spot ;)

Good point on the SSD though Bamba. I could just drop it in there couldn't I? See? This is why I come here for advice!


Yep, that's basically what I've done over the years; I've got a 'files' drive that has just moved with me from PC to PC. My actual C drive has changed with each machine, and got a mid-cycle upgrade to an SSD on my previous PC, because why not, but the secondary drive still has shedloads of space on it so no reason not to just bring it along every time.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:00 
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Grim... wrote:
It's twice the cost of the one I bought yesterday, and I can't really see where the extra money has gone.


Neither can we, unless you actually give us the spec and cost of your machine.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:08 
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TheVision wrote:
Also, imagine for a second that I'm a total noob and don't know what RAID 1 is. Can you explain it?


It'll be two identical drives, and the contents of one are mirrored to the other in real time, so if a drive fails you still have a good copy of all your data.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:09 
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Hearthly wrote:
TheVision wrote:
Also, imagine for a second that I'm a total noob and don't know what RAID 1 is. Can you explain it?


It'll be two identical drives, and the contents of one are mirrored to the other in real time, so if a drive fails you still have a good copy of all your data.


That makes perfect sense. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:30 
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Also it bumps up your read speeds (because it gets half the data from one drive and half the data from the other at the same time).

That may have been a little simplified.

The one I ordered wasn't nearly as high spec, but it was no slouch. Bits came from all over, but it was basically:

2 x 240GB SSD drives
A case
Gigabyte GA-H110M Motherboard (This one: http://www.gigabyte.us/Motherboard/GA-H ... -rev-10#ov )
7th gen i5 7400 (3.0GHz)
16GB RAM
Win 10 Pro
DVD RW
An power supply
3 year warranty

£700inc :S

So it's not liquid cooled, and it's using onboard graphics because no-one's going to be playing games on it, but even when you add £400 for the GFX card you still only get to £1100.

So I guess I can see where the extra cash has gone - if you buy all high shelf bits it's going to add up.

I think the important question here is: what are you going to be doing with it?

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:31 
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This is my favourite bit

Quote:
Thermal Paste
STANDARD THERMAL PASTE FOR SUFFICIENT COOLING


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:24 
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That's an important question Grim... I'm going to be using it to edit videos for my business so it needs a bit of grunt behind it and ideally, needs to last for a fair while.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:58 
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Your CPU and RAM will do most of the lifting there, so that GPU could be toned down if you don't want to play games on the thing.

The only real thing it'll help with is you encode speed, but you want a farm for that anyway ;)

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 13:01 
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Grim... wrote:

2 x 240GB SSD drives
A case
Gigabyte GA-H110M Motherboard (This one: http://www.gigabyte.us/Motherboard/GA-H ... -rev-10#ov )
7th gen i5 7400 (3.0GHz)
16GB RAM
Win 10 Pro
DVD RW
An power supply
3 year warranty

£700inc :S


So not the same at all then, and it's quite easy to see where the extra money has gone :hat:


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 13:05 
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Hearthly wrote:
Grim... wrote:

2 x 240GB SSD drives
A case
Gigabyte GA-H110M Motherboard (This one: http://www.gigabyte.us/Motherboard/GA-H ... -rev-10#ov )
7th gen i5 7400 (3.0GHz)
16GB RAM
Win 10 Pro
DVD RW
An power supply
3 year warranty

£700inc :S


So not the same at all then, and it's quite easy to see where the extra money has gone :hat:

It's a PC to do work on.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 13:06 
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Grim... wrote:
Your CPU and RAM will do most of the lifting there, so that GPU could be toned down if you don't want to play games on the thing.


Quite a lot of video editing packages offload some or all encoding and rendering to the GPU these days.

The 1070 is a great card for gaming too, so if the PC will be doing gaming duties as well, it's a solid choice.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 13:07 
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Do keep up ;)

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 13:10 
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Grim... wrote:
Do keep up ;)


I think there was an edit there.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 13:32 
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It would be nice to have the option for gaming as well. I don't really use my current PC for gaming other than retro games and emulators but I wouldn't like to be spending all that money and not be able to play games if I wanted to.

Also, It's got to last me a fair while too.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 13:59 
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TheVision wrote:
Also, It's got to last me a fair while too.

This is almost always a bad reason to spend more on PCs. A £400 thing today will be bettered by a £200 one in a year and a £50 one the year after. Don't pad the spec now, upgrade later instead.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 14:05 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
TheVision wrote:
Also, It's got to last me a fair while too.

This is almost always a bad reason to spend more on PCs. A £400 thing today will be bettered by a £200 one in a year and a £50 one the year after. Don't pad the spec now, upgrade later instead.

:this:


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 14:07 
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That is a very good point. Hmmm, it IS a lot of money but then again, it will do everything I want it to.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 14:19 
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Is it tax deductible?

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 14:20 
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I imagine so yes, but I've got a lot of work to do to find out the finer points of this.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 14:54 
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That is a lot of money. I paid £950 for mine 18 months ago and it was VR-spec.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 15:17 
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So how do I get it cheaper then without scrimping on the specs?


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 15:25 
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Get a time machine?

You might save a few quid by building it yourself, but I don't know if it would be a great deal of money.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 15:26 
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Don't forget the Brexit effect. So where myp says 'I bought a VR spec PC for £1000 18 months ago', the equivalent PC now costs around £1200.

PCS aren't cheap, they use top quality components and cases, do a high quality build, and charge appropriately.

The GTX1070 is a high-end graphics card, maybe drop that down a notch to a 1060. M2 SSDs are expensive, use a standard SATA SSD as your boot drive instead. Pick a cheaper case. Drop the RAM to 16GB. Change the processor to a 1700 instead of a 1700X. Lose the water cooling and use a cheaper air cooler or just the stock AMD cooler. There are lots of nips and tucks you can do to get the price down, but there comes a point where you're compromising on the machine's ability to do what you want.

If you're happy with the machine you've specced up and the price you're paying then it's not 'too expensive', PCS charge fairly for the machines they build and the components they use.

Personally if I were lashing out a serious wedge of cash on a brand new PC, I'd spend the extra to get exactly the machine I wanted.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 16:06 
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Hearthly wrote:

Personally if I were lashing out a serious wedge of cash on a brand new PC, I'd spend the extra to get exactly the machine I wanted.


This is a very good point but you also make some good recommendations on cutting some elements out. I think I'm going to have a play and see if I can get it closer to £1500 inc VAT.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 17:14 
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For work, you might also want to consider backup solutions. The earlier they get them in place the easier it is!

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 22:34 

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I guess you aren't comfortable building your own, TheVision? Using a parts list pretty similar to the one in your original post you can get it for £1500 in PCPartPicker.. Probably cheaper, if you played around with similar components from different companies.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:47 
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http://www.logicalincrements.com/articles/videoediting/

This takes you thtough 5 different builds for Video Editing PC's. Budget - High End

Prices are in $ but it might help you get an idea on if you need to change things with the one your are looking to buy.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:24 
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Thanks asfish. That looks useful!

As for building it myself Cookie, I don't know. How difficult could it be? I built a PC years ago (a Pentium 3 600 I think) but a lot has changed since then. I'd be worried that I hadn't got the cooling right.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:34 
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asfish wrote:
Prices are in $ but it might help you get an idea on if you need to change things with the one your are looking to buy.


Just change the dollar signs to pound signs.

This innovative currency converter is brought to you by Hearthly Technical Industries Ltd.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:43 
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TheVision wrote:
Thanks asfish. That looks useful!

As for building it myself Cookie, I don't know. How difficult could it be? I built a PC years ago (a Pentium 3 600 I think) but a lot has changed since then. I'd be worried that I hadn't got the cooling right.


The amount of money you save on a self-build is negligible to zero, and involves a lot of extra faff, especially if the parts are coming from more than one place. It's one of those things you do because you enjoy it, more than it making any actual sense to do so. (It's not particularly difficult to do, though.)

I'll revisit that machine you specced up at PCS today and post a revised build Vision, see what it's possible to nip and tuck cost wise without compromising on the fundamentals of the machine.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:42 
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Thanks Hearthly. Here's the link to the PC spec above...

https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/saved-co ... xRSKF9S8K/

Like I say, it's going to be used for editing videos mainly with the possibility of playing games... But mainly editing.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:44 
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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:24 
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That's a point, UK.hardware.info regularly updates their pick of specs of various PC types, like 4k, video, budget and so on.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:59 
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TheVision wrote:
Thanks Hearthly. Here's the link to the PC spec above...

https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/saved-co ... xRSKF9S8K/

Like I say, it's going to be used for editing videos mainly with the possibility of playing games... But mainly editing.


Here you go, pretty much the same thing but for £1,276. (It's actually got more SSD storage than your build.)

Remember I've only tried to do a 'match' for your build, in reality for a video editing PC you're going to want 'all the storage', especially if you're intending to work with 4K video, and as Grim... notes you should think about how you're going to back everything up as well, and the cloud ain't an option for video files. (Big external hard drives are the obvious answer.)

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 13:15 
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Don't pair Ryzen with slow ram.

Quick explanation of why.. basically AMD are using something called Infinity Fabric to tie things together. Because of that (and because Ryzen 7 is two quad cores tied together using IF) ram speed makes a massive difference to the IPC. You want 3000mhz ram
No ifs or buts. You will lose 20% performance on 2133 ram. The rather crappy clock speed on Ryzen doesn't help any either.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 13:48 
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TheVision wrote:
Thanks asfish. That looks useful!

As for building it myself Cookie, I don't know. How difficult could it be? I built a PC years ago (a Pentium 3 600 I think) but a lot has changed since then. I'd be worried that I hadn't got the cooling right.

The problem with that is hassle - not with the original build, but if something goes wrong in a month or so.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 13:49 
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There are upsides, though. If a stick of RAM goes bad on a self-build then you pull it out and send it back for a replacement.

If it goes bad on a purchased box you might well have to send the whole thing away.

However, you'd need to be able to identify that it was the RAM that's broken in the first place.

Swings and roundabouts.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 14:14 
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JohnCoffey wrote:
Don't pair Ryzen with slow ram.

Quick explanation of why.. basically AMD are using something called Infinity Fabric to tie things together. Because of that (and because Ryzen 7 is two quad cores tied together using IF) ram speed makes a massive difference to the IPC. You want 3000mhz ram
No ifs or buts. You will lose 20% performance on 2133 ram. The rather crappy clock speed on Ryzen doesn't help any either.


I guess they're playing it safe because of the early RAM compatibility issues that Ryzen had, but yes they should be offering faster RAM than that by now.

20% might be over-egging the pudding a bit though, a quick Google around a raft on benchmarks shows uplifts from as little as 2-3% up to maybe 15-16%, depending on the application/game.

I agree with the basic point though, faster RAM than 2133MHz should be in a new Ryzen build, might be worth Vision asking what the options are if he decides to order, and indeed why they're only offering 2133MHz in those Ryzen systems.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 18:34 
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JohnCoffey wrote:
basically AMD are using something called Infinity Fabric to tie things together.

Should we be calling in the Guardians of the Galaxy?


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 22:40 
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Hearthly wrote:
JohnCoffey wrote:
Don't pair Ryzen with slow ram.

Quick explanation of why.. basically AMD are using something called Infinity Fabric to tie things together. Because of that (and because Ryzen 7 is two quad cores tied together using IF) ram speed makes a massive difference to the IPC. You want 3000mhz ram
No ifs or buts. You will lose 20% performance on 2133 ram. The rather crappy clock speed on Ryzen doesn't help any either.


I guess they're playing it safe because of the early RAM compatibility issues that Ryzen had, but yes they should be offering faster RAM than that by now.

20% might be over-egging the pudding a bit though, a quick Google around a raft on benchmarks shows uplifts from as little as 2-3% up to maybe 15-16%, depending on the application/game.

I agree with the basic point though, faster RAM than 2133MHz should be in a new Ryzen build, might be worth Vision asking what the options are if he decides to order, and indeed why they're only offering 2133MHz in those Ryzen systems.


Games, not so much. As you say, 3-10% max. Cinebench and rendering however?

At 4.6ghz my 5820k (6 core Haswell 12 threads) makes about 1200 points. My 8 core 16t Ivybridge Xeon @ 3.4ghz makes about 1150.

With 2133 ram @ 4ghz a Ryzen 1700 (non X) makes about 1450 points. With 3000mhz ram it does 1700 easy. Same applies to handbrake.. It's mostly when you use all 8 cores. Games do not do so, but The Witcher 3 has been sorted so has Rise Of The Tomb Raider. In those games it does make a difference, all the way up to 3200 when the memory controller becomes flaky and starts to slope off.

But yeah, 4ghz tops is pretty damn lame, so you want to extract every last bit of performance you can. And in real world apps like virtual machines etc it makes a massive difference.

To add. Ryzen works like a dual CPU rig. So there are basically two separate units that are tied together with IF. Dual socket systems suffer from latency between the CPUs. So that's basically what this IF thing is, a way to tie things together and bring down the latency. Threadripper will be even worse, because you now have 4 quad core units. So the faster your ram goes the faster the "bridge" between the two CPUs goes. The latency drops, and the performance really improves. ATM it's limited to like two games and anything that wants all of the cores and threads. But AMD are really working at it, and I think they have a fighting chance this time IMO. Loads of my mates have switched to Ryzen or finally ditched their raging X58 rigs and upgraded to Ryzen.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:03 
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Can you dig it?

Joined: 5th Apr, 2008
Posts: 4662
You probably want to spend some good money on a decent power cable and monitor cable

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