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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:22 
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Well I think it looks more than shit enough for me to feel pretty happy to be pooh-poohing it with only a very tiny risk of being wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:25 
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It says it feels like a trackpad, I know what trackpads feel like and I wouldn't want to be trying to aim a gun or steer a car with one.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:29 
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markg wrote:
It says it feels like a trackpad, I know what trackpads feel like and I wouldn't want to be trying to aim a gun or steer a car with one.


James Bond could only just drive a 7 series with a touch screen so I'd be knackered.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:33 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
I'm still very dubious about game support in SteamOS.

Make Half-Life 3 SteamOS-only - killer app!

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:36 
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I'm not convinced about the Steam controller and never have been, and reading that by all accounts neither are the guys who've had a hands on with it either. (From what I can see there I'd rather just use a 360 pad.)

On top of that the prices of the machines look high to me (assuming a $1 - £1 conversion on the pricing which is what usually happens), I see the case that Mrs Hearthly's new PC is in is used for more than one of the Steam machines, but looking at the specs you pay more for less power in a Steam machine that you do in a PC. (Admittedly Mrs Hearthly's new PC came without an OS but I thought the whole idea of Steam OS was that you save the cost of a Windows licence.)

For example looking at the Scan 3XS Steam machine there it shows a base price of $999, which gets you an i3, a 750Ti, 8GB RAM and a 120GB SSD, in the same case as Mrs Hearthly's PC, which was an i5, GTX960, 8GB RAM and 256GB SSD for under £800.

At the very least I'd expect the Steam machines to offer a reasonable cost-saving over a new PC.

Given the uncertainty surrounding Steam OS and what will and won't run on it, definitely a no sale at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:52 
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Hearthly wrote:
From what I can see there I'd rather just use a 360 pad.


That's missing the point somewhat surely? If they could just give you a standard 360 style controller and have it work with all games then that's what they would've done; but any PC games that rely on a mouse to control can't always be mapped to that kind of device and this thing has to be able to support all existing PC games or it's dead in the water.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:53 
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Anyway, I'm happy to reserve judgement until I get a shot of it. If someone had told me ten years ago I'd be happily, even preferentially, FPSing around using two analogue sticks I'd have told them to fuck off, but here we are.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:54 
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Bamba wrote:
this thing has to be able to support all existing PC games or it's dead in the water.
Which is definitely doesn't, because SteamOS.

Bamba wrote:
Anyway, I'm happy to reserve judgement until I get a shot of it. If someone had told me ten years ago I'd be happily, even preferentially, FPSing around using two analogue sticks I'd have told them to fuck off, but here we are.
Do you play online against mouse & keyboard folk?


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:58 
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A PC will always give you more power but at far more cost, at GTX 980 is around £500 and that's before you add the same again and maybe more to build a PC around it.

I still prefer to game on a PC even though I have an next gen console and a number of previous gen!

First reason is lifestyle I have a TV in the living room and a young son, so if he is in the living room he will go nuts if I game on the console, he either wants to join in or watch Fireman Sam! When he is in bed my wife would like to watch TV so I don't have that much opportunity. The Xbox One is really used for Skype and Blu Ray playback for now.

Next is the flexibility and value you get from a lot of PC based games, take Skyrim for example, whilst there is DLC on consoles as well there is almost endless extra stuff for PC from various communities so the game on a PC can always be refreshed and changed.

Finally is emulation its very restrictive to play on consoles unless you mod them, even then its no where near as easy as it is on the PC in terms of experience or emulator development and choice.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:01 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Which is definitely doesn't, because SteamOS.


I don't mean at that level, that's a different problem they need to solve, I'm talking purely about the controller here.

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Do you play online against mouse & keyboard folk?


No, I don't give a shit about online stuff so as long as I could play non-competitive games while sat on my couch I'm happy; but I realise that's not true of everyone and it's a fair point you make.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:07 
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Bamba wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Which is definitely doesn't, because SteamOS.


I don't mean at that level, that's a different problem they need to solve, I'm talking purely about the controller here.

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Do you play online against mouse & keyboard folk?


No, I don't give a shit about online stuff so as long as I could play non-competitive games while sat on my couch I'm happy; but I realise that's not true of everyone and it's a fair point you make.

I don't think this is aimed at people who play a lot of competitive online FPSes anyway. It's more likely those would prefer keyboard/mouse and sitting at a desk to play.

However, if living room PCs are really going to take off then you need something more than a standard joypad, but most people would not be happy with mouse/keyboard on their laps. I'm interested to try this with an RTS for example.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:11 
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How does an rts fare on a joy pad? Like Bamba, I never thought I would FpS on a pad 10 years back

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:12 
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MaliA wrote:
How does an rts fare on a joy pad? Like Bamba, I never thought I would FpS on a pad 10 years back

Not very well, in all honesty. They're either dumbed down too far (Halo Wars, Civ Rev) or you have to contort your hands into ungodly positions.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:19 
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An upside down cross?


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:28 
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Surely the biggest gripe about the pad will be that it's batteries only. What is it? 2005? Jebus.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:37 
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Saturnalian wrote:
Surely the biggest gripe about the pad will be that it's batteries only. What is it? 2005? Jebus.

Pretty sure all wireless pads have batteries, otherwise they wouldn't work.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:38 
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Future Warrior wrote:
Saturnalian wrote:
Surely the biggest gripe about the pad will be that it's batteries only. What is it? 2005? Jebus.

Pretty sure all wireless pads have batteries, otherwise they wouldn't work.


Mr Chris's has magnets and he wears iron rings when playing.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:40 
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He knows what I mean. It's AA batteries not a rechargeable battery.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:41 
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Saturnalian wrote:
He knows what I mean. It's AA batteries not a rechargeable battery.


AA batteries are preferable.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:41 
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Saturnalian wrote:
He knows what I mean. It's AA batteries not a rechargeable battery.

I thought Beex was all about being technically correct, sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:45 
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nVidia have announced their new GFX card, and it's a bit of a monster.

http://www.theverge.com/2015/3/4/814899 ... the-planet

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:49 
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Given that the less powerful Titan card sells for ~£800, this has very little relevance to my life.

Edit -- these things aren't really gaming cards, although that doesn't stop a few lunatics buying them anyway. The price-per-performance is abysmal. They're mainly for people doing CUDA GP-GPU in workstations and render farms.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:49 
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MaliA wrote:
AA batteries are preferable.
+1.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:00 
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About 45 seconds into that, they demo the analog triggers. They appear to have a motion range of no more than a few millimetres -- looks pretty poor for driving games to my eyes. I do like the two buttons on the underside of the pad, though.

In related news, Microsoft announced a PC wireless adapter for the (apparently very good) Xbox One pad. Oh, and also, cross-buy and cross-save between Xbox One and the Windows 10 store, which is potentially interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:02 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Given that the less powerful Titan card sells for ~£800, this has very little relevance to my life.

Edit -- these things aren't really gaming cards, although that doesn't stop a few lunatics buying them anyway. The price-per-performance is abysmal. They're mainly for people doing CUDA GP-GPU in workstations and render farms.


You wouldn't use these in render farms, they are not built to be hammered all the time and will fail. (well at least the current Titans are)

I'm putting a farm in at work with 32 Tesla K40, we were told by HP that Titans are used for the development side, but not for production as I challenged why we were paying £5,000 each for the K40 that didn't look massively faster than Titans.

I built a proof of concept last year and did use a custom PC with 4 Titans in it. I took a long time to set up, we had firmware and heating issues and had to run the PC with Windows 7 to be able to manage and update the cards for 3 months before we switched the OS to Linux. With the Tesla's they are tested for use with Linux and the cooling is a lot better.

You are right though the Titan is a mental card that is not value for money for gaming really.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:42 
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markg wrote:
It says it feels like a trackpad, I know what trackpads feel like and I wouldn't want to be trying to aim a gun or steer a car with one.

Eurogamer feel differently: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015- ... ssing-link

Also *sometimes* it's a trackpad. Sometimes it's an analog stick. All depends on which game you're playing.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:51 
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Future Warrior wrote:


Quote:
Which is why it's the triggers that leave me the most impressed. Not that they do anything new, but in how they replicate one of the best analogue triggers ever to have graced a controller - pull down on each of them, and after a well-judged amount of travel there's a little final click into place, a feature seen and then seemingly forgotten on Nintendo's ageing yet still brilliant GameCube pad. For a dyed-in-the-wool console gamer like myself, it's that kind of detail that makes me eagerly anticipate diving into Valve's new ecosystem.


Interesting that they note that the travel is fine. I'll reserve judgement on that.

As for the click button at the end of the trigger -- I agree that that felt delightful on the Gamecube pad. But I don't think the world forgot about it. I think the world decided it wasn't worthwhile because there wasn't anything interesting to do with it. I don't recall it ever doing anything great on the 'Cube.

I suspect Valve's answer to this is to gesture towards its rather complex looking control scheme editor and saying "it's for whatever you want!" That may or may not be the answer. Clearly it is worried the editor may overwhelm folks, because it's also pushing the social sharing of control layouts.

Quote:
Also *sometimes* it's a trackpad. Sometimes it's an analog stick. All depends on which game you're playing.
No. It's always a trackpad, but sometimes it pretends to be an analog stick. Big difference.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:52 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Quote:
Also *sometimes* it's a trackpad. Sometimes it's an analog stick. All depends on which game you're playing.
No. It's always a trackpad, but sometimes it pretends to be an analog stick. Big difference.

Well yeah. How well it pretends is the important bit.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 17:53 
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Polygon seem cautiously optimistic. http://www.polygon.com/2015/3/4/8149643 ... controller

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 18:15 
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I'm going to call these now as a flop.

I was sort of on the fence and/or cautiously optimistic but having now seen:

a) The specs, prices and form factors

and

b) An in-depth on the controller

I'm of the opinion there's no particular market for them.

With regards to (a), as per my previous post, they're underspecced, overpriced, using existing PC form factors, and running a non-standard OS that will massively limit their usefulness and compatibility. We already have powerful small form factor PCs, we have NUC boxes, we have Steam's big picture mode, we have wireless controllers (and keyboards + mice) and so on. Yes Steam OS can be designed from the ground up to work with the controller, but I don't think that's a big enough selling point.

With regards to (b), yuck. Frankly. (For me the 360 pad is as good as a controller has ever got.) PC gamers won't want to give up their keyboards and mice, console gamers already have their consoles, and they cost a lot less than a Steam Box.

As best I can recall the whole Steam box thing came about because of Gabe's horrified reaction to Windows 8, but in turn that's matured into 8.1 (which is fine), and 7 is still a brilliant OS, on top of that we have 10 coming which looks just peachy.

Unless Steam deliberately gimp their platform on Windows, and/or pull some amazing piece of ass-hattery like making Half Life 3 Steam OS only (or other such shenanigans), who the hell would want a Steam Box?

They'd need to launch it out of the door with 100% game compatibility, and even then it'd be stupidly expensive and you wouldn't have access to the massive established world of Windows software.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see this one working. If they'd have got the box out of the door when everyone was hating on Windows 8, and had it keenly priced, and had some sort of killer app, maybe it would have found some traction. But if ever the phrase 'a day late and a dollar short' (and many dollars too expensive) was appropriate, this is it.

Just watch the thing go on to sell millions of units now :nerd:


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 18:42 

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Hearthly wrote:
(For me the 360 pad is as good as a controller has ever got.)

I love the Xbox One controller.

It'll be interesting to see what happens. I've read in a few places that one of the main points of SteamOS is to try reduce the overhead of the OS - which is exactly the same as Microsoft is trying to do with Windows 10 and DirectX12.

SteamOS is also missing a massive thing coming to Windows - the cross platform multiplayer between the Xbox and the PC. If all developers get on board with that, you've instantly got 5-6x the potential players in any game - which would be great for games as they become older, as you'll probably still be able to find plenty of people playing them.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 18:44 
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Cookie197 wrote:
It'll be interesting to see what happens. I've read in a few places that one of the main points of SteamOS is to try reduce the overhead of the OS - which is exactly the same as Microsoft is trying to do with Windows 10 and DirectX12.


But that's just a total non-issue on modern PC hardware, it's a problem that doesn't exist and/or need fixing.

Quote:
SteamOS is also missing a massive thing coming to Windows - the cross platform multiplayer between the Xbox and the PC. If all developers get on board with that, you've instantly got 5-6x the potential players in any game - which would be great for games as they become older, as you'll probably still be able to find plenty of people playing them.


Well yes, if MS bind Windows 10 and XBox Live together, they're really onto something there.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 18:47 
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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 19:30 
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How do you market something that's blatantly just an overpriced PC running a stupid non-standard OS?

'Buy this! It costs more than what you've already got, it runs less stuff, and it's got a faffy controller!'

Compare and contrast.....

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 19:38 
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£762 inc VAT is £635 ex VAT is $967. So it's about the same spec and about the same price.

Edit -- this Steam Machine seems very close in spec and price.

Edit edit -- and it runs infinitely more stuff than the no-OS PC you are comparing it to.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 19:54 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Edit edit -- and it runs infinitely more stuff than the no-OS PC you are comparing it to.

:DD

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 19:57 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
£762 inc VAT is £635 ex VAT is $967. So it's about the same spec and about the same price.

Edit -- this Steam Machine seems very close in spec and price.


But the minimum specs on that Steam Box are an i3 with a 120GB SSD and a 750Ti for the graphics, a substantially cheaper offering than the PC which comes with a full-fat i5, an SSD of twice the capacity, and a massively better graphics card.

Here's a PC with pretty much identical specs to that Steam Box in its bare config.

(Admittedly your Scan link is similar on price, but they're still skimping on the SSD and to my mind these Steam Boxes need to be quite a bit cheaper than a Windows PC to be an attractive proposition, not sort of 'closeish'.)

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 20:04 
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Hearthly wrote:
to my mind these Steam Boxes need to be quite a bit cheaper than a Windows PC to be an attractive proposition, not sort of 'closeish'.)

They are literally the same machines running a different OS. PC hardware resellers have famously tiny margins. How would they be any cheaper? Would Scan be selling them at a loss?

Edit -- your "similar PC" has one again overlooked the ~£80 for a copy of Windows.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 20:12 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
They are literally the same machines running a different OS. PC hardware resellers have famously tiny margins. How would they be any cheaper? Would Scan be selling them at a loss?


Well yes I know that, and this is why I think they will fail.

I kind of had an idea that Steam would get fundamentally involved at a hardware level, either supply their own boxes, or subsidising the builders (such as Scan), or something - anything to get the boxes out there, basically. (After all, they can make oodles of cash from Steam itself once they've got the box into people's houses.)

Sort of like Sony did with the PS3, whereby they took a hit on the hardware to get market penetration, establish Blu-Ray, and sell software + services.

At the very least I thought there would actually be a 'Steam Box', some sort of bespoke case and/or hardware, whereas instead we literally do have identical kit in established PC form factors running Steam OS, for about the same price as a Windows PC - and that goes back to my original point, who the hell will want one?

I don't understand who the Steam Box will appeal to, and what its selling point is.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 14:39 
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12GB single GPU graphics card anyone?

The GTX Titan X, effectively a GTX980 and a GTX960 on a single die, delivers equivalent performance to SLI-ed 980s. Remarkably low power draw too.

Manages 4K gaming even in insane titles like Crysis 3.

Just expect it to cost the best part of a grand.....

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digit ... n-x-review

Whilst this is clearly pie in the sky for most folks, it paves the way for a future graphics card based on the same GPU costing a lot less (maybe £400 or so), and makes 4K gaming an achievable goal on a reasonable budget.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 14:46 
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Is it wrong that I'm considering buying a gaming laptop to replace my existing laptop, which is only a couple of months old, mind - purely so I can play Elite on the move?


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 14:53 
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Yes.

Can you not stream it via steam, or nvidia or something?


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 14:57 
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GazChap wrote:
Is it wrong that I'm considering buying a gaming laptop to replace my existing laptop, which is only a couple of months old, mind - purely so I can play Elite on the move?

Yes, you idiot.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 18:50 
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Just turned up on pre-order at Overclockers. Definitely not one for my shopping list but the inevitable mainstream(ish) version of the card should be interesting....

(This the cheapest one, the more exotic variants are up at a grand.)

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 21:54 
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SLI ready :D


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 22:03 
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Well yes because obviously there's no point in just having one of them.... :)

And the thing is, some people will actually SLI the bloody things. I guess on premium products like this, Nvidia really don't need to sell that many of them to make it worth their while, and then the tech trickles down to more 'normal cards' and the rest of us can be happy!


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 22:36 
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La Bamba

Joined: 27th May, 2012
Posts: 251
OK so I'm still well into my computers. I don't think it'll ever end, bit of an Aspie obsession. I now have four rigs. Hilariously I do use all of them..

So here's my main rig. It consists of a 3970x hex core overclocked to 4.7ghz and has two Titan Blacks in SLI. This is my 4k rig I use on my Acer 4k2k G-sync monitor.

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OK so that's basically my main rig. Then I have my Hackintosh which I use for anything arty or design. I have a plotter (I cut all my own graphics) and I use the Mac for that too.

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Both the 8 core 16 thread Ivy CPU and the GTX 480 Lightning are cooled with Corsair H55s. I use Noiseblocker bionic fans that run at 700RPM. Trust me when I say, this rig is utterly silent.

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And with the window on.

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Then there's my all AMD rig running the 8 core 8320 and a Radeon 7990. This rig is used by my wife, we play Borderlands 2 and the Pre Sequel (even though it's a bit shit) and lots of L4D2.

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And now for my latest creation. Recently my lady and I bought a 65" TV. It's 4k but I won't bother with it as it's only 30hz. Any way, I've seen people building these tiny little ITX rigs and fancied a go, so I picked up a GTX Titan Black and went to work. I've cut in a custom fan guard made by Mayhems, and had the PSU fully braided. It's absolutely tiny.

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The CPU is one of those Pentium Anniversary things and a Gigabyte ITX board I had lying around. I'm going to use it on the TV running 1080p.

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 9:54 
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Hello Hello Hello

Joined: 11th May, 2008
Posts: 13381
That's a fair few grands' worth of kit there, not to mention the 65 inch telly :o

And here's me umming and aaahing about dropping £250 on a new graphics card :D

As for the mini-ITX PCs, they really are quite something, absolutely no compromise on performance but in a tiny form factor with practically zero noise. Mrs Hearthly's kicks ass.


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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 13:06 
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La Bamba

Joined: 27th May, 2012
Posts: 251
Best card ATM is the 290x Matrix Platinum on OCUK for £249

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/showprod ... =GX-363-AS

Up to and including 1440p are easily covered. The GTX 970 starts to creak a little at 1440p thanks to the lame memory bus and derped memory layout (3.5+0.5gb)

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 Post subject: Re: PC gaming hardware thread.
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 14:07 
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Joined: 11th May, 2008
Posts: 13381
AMD just don't rock my world anymore at all, plus none of the 290/290x cards will fit in my case anyway.

It was actually this dinky little 970 that I was eyeing up, full 970 performance (slightly overclocked from stock in fact), in a mini-ITX form factor.

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/showprod ... ubcat=1010


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