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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 21:38 
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MR EXCELLENT FACE

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Craster wrote:
Well, indeed. But people aren't paid on the basis of the responsibility they have, they're paid on the basis of how easy it is to attract people with the right skills into the job.


Except for tube drivers?

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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 22:03 
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Commander-in-Cheese

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Is it easy to be a tube driver? I know that I'd freak the fuck out if I was just staring at tunnel walls rushing past my face all day.

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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 23:35 
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INFINITE POWAH

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Craster wrote:
Is it easy to be a tube driver? I know that I'd freak the fuck out if I was just staring at tunnel walls rushing past my face all day.

Easy. Close your eyes.

Or, you know, pretend you're playing Descent.

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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:42 
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Participant in dramatic games

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5 pages without somebody mentioning the VAL?
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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:48 
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baron of techno

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CDGVAL is awesome, but the system is tiny. I haven't ridden on any of the others.

There's no reason a system like this couldn't work for undergrounds, especially simple ones like Glasgow and Newcastle, or the smaller London tube lines.
But when the train is out in the open, has to interact with existing infrastructure and human controlled vehicles (and actual humans) I think it will be a long time before we robotise it.

Anyway, that's a refinement you do once a system is running at peak efficiency and reliability, and the main cost overhead and weak point is the driver. I doubt that the UK train network will *ever* be in that situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:08 
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Commander-in-Cheese

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The DLR is 95% out in the open. Doesn't share rails though.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:15 
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baron of techno

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Craster wrote:
The DLR is 95% out in the open. Doesn't share rails though.


So is the CDGVAL, what I mean is it's very well separated from everything, no crossings, even the platforms have sliding doors on them which only open when the train doors are lined up.

Real trains, trams, and most above ground railways don't always have that luxury and it must be quite expensive to arrange.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:42 
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Honey Boo Boo

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kalmar wrote:
There's no reason a system like this couldn't work for undergrounds, especially simple ones like Glasgow and Newcastle, or the smaller London tube lines.


The Glasgow Subway is computer controlled, the chap in the cab only operates the controls when entering and leaving the yard. The rest of the time he just opens and closes the doors.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:43 
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Unpossible!

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MetalAngel wrote:
The rest of the time he just opens and closes the doors.

For 40k a year


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:45 
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Peculiar, yet lovely

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DavPaz wrote:
MetalAngel wrote:
kalmar wrote:
The rest of the time he just opens and closes the doors.

For 40k a year


Still better value than your average newsreader.

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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:47 
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Honey Boo Boo

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DavPaz wrote:
MetalAngel wrote:
kalmar wrote:
The rest of the time he just opens and closes the doors.

For 40k a year


http://news.scotsman.com/glasgowsubwayd ... 2376172.jp
Quote:
The new drivers will receive a basic salary of £18,000 per year, with top earners receiving about £25,000 with overtime payments.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:51 
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Unpossible!

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Damn. Trumped again ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:52 
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baron of techno

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I did not know that.

Would it be accurate to guess that automation and removal of responsibility (and presumably wage) from the drivers is what caused them all to end up being sacked and replaced?

Cos £18k isn't a lot. Minicab drivers probably make that much.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:57 
SupaMod
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kalmar wrote:
Cos £18k isn't a lot. Minicab drivers probably make that much.

I'd say they work harder, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:58 
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Unpossible!

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"I press the button, the door opens. I press the button, the door closes. Is it lunchtime yet?"


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:01 
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Honey Boo Boo

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He's there in case something goes wrong, has to drive the train at certain stages, and has heaps upon heaps of responsibility upon his shoulders in case he closes the doors upon Hamish MacTavish's wee scottie.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:02 
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baron of techno

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DavPaz wrote:
"I press the button, the door opens. I press the button, the door closes. Is it lunchtime yet?"


Heh, one of those articles says that when the drivers threatened to go on strike, the company retrained a bunch of their CCTV operators to press the button (which took, one imagines, one lap of the track and a 10 minute talk on safety procedures). Disgruntlement ahoy!


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:03 
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Unpossible!

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MetalAngel wrote:
He's there in case something goes wrong, has to drive the train at certain stages, and has heaps upon heaps of responsibility upon his shoulders in case he closes the doors upon Hamish MacTavish's wee scottie.

Aye, I know this. But day to day, his job is button pressing. Like many jobs.

Security guards generally do nothing, but can be called upon to do some hairy shit, hence, valuable job. Same for train drivers.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:06 
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kalmar wrote:
There's no reason a system like this couldn't work for undergrounds, especially simple ones like Glasgow and Newcastle, or the smaller London tube lines.
But when the train is out in the open, has to interact with existing infrastructure and human controlled vehicles (and actual humans) I think it will be a long time before we robotise it.


Like with that proposed Joe Public CCTV monitoring scheme, a system of webcams and computers attached to Densha de go* controllers with bits of string should do it.



*In Googling that to check the spelling, I stumbled across the Google description for the official site - "Densha de go! is without any doubt one of the most famous videogames ever released." Er.. yeah.

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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:13 
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Honey Boo Boo

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devilman wrote:
*In Googling that to check the spelling, I stumbled across the Google description for the official site - "Densha de go! is without any doubt one of the most famous videogames ever released." Er.. yeah.


It's often cited on slow news days when they do a 'ten naffest games ever' list. 'Hey, those craps JAPS play ARCADE GAMES about DRIVING COMMUTER TRAINS! ROTFEL!!!!!111 What a bunch of WEIRD LOSER NERDS. We Western gamers will never sink so low. Now turn to page 57 for our Championship Manager review...'


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:15 
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MetalAngel wrote:
devilman wrote:
*In Googling that to check the spelling, I stumbled across the Google description for the official site - "Densha de go! is without any doubt one of the most famous videogames ever released." Er.. yeah.


It's often cited on slow news days when they do a 'ten naffest games ever' list. 'Hey, those craps JAPS play ARCADE GAMES about DRIVING COMMUTER TRAINS! ROTFEL!!!!!111 What a bunch of WEIRD LOSER NERDS. We Western gamers will never sink so low. Now turn to page 57 for our Championship Manager review...'


I should probably give one of them a chance - I've got the Saturn controller for it, but no game. I did have a little LCD handheld Densha de Go which wasn't bad (as LCD games go).

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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:16 
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Unpossible!

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I did once try a bus driving game where failing to indicate lost you points. I ROFLED at that, a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:17 
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That Rev Chap

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I very much enjoyed my time with Railfan on the PS3.

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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:18 
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baron of techno

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O.M.G

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Wii-DENSHA-de-G ... 45f036cb5c

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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:24 
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Honey Boo Boo

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I have both Densha 1 and 2 for the PSX (no controller, my dad bought them during trips to Japan and didn't have room for a huge pretend combined throttle!) and they're 'alive' in a way no other sim has yet matched in terms of making you feel like you're driving through a busy urban network.

MS Train Sim is a better simulator, though, while Trainz is great fun for building your own railway (but pretty shit when the time comes to drive around it).

RailSim or whatever it's called (and its sequel) is reportedly extremely pants.

Tokyo Bus Guide, meanwhile, was excellent. Once you get to grips with it it's very satisfying. Matron. The bonus disc in which a perky Jap-o-girl with slightly wonky teeth and crossed eyes garbles excitedly about... buses, probably... is nice too.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 15:54 

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The Densha De Go games are really good in my mind. I've got a few of them on the PSP and one for the PS2 (can't remember what it's called, but you drive the bullet train in that one). They're far more than just a boring train driving sim, they're really often properly hard to play, requiring the skills to stop at your destination within seconds of the designated time, within inches of the correct stopping point, whilst making all movements silky smooth so your passengers don't get jolted around. They're great fun.

MS Train Simulator is the best 'proper' sim I've played. It's a shame the proposed sequel never happened, as it's looking very dated now.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 17:17 
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Honey Boo Boo

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MSTS2 has been canned TWICE now, the second iteration was looking really promising. Trainz is just Auran rehashing the same decrepit product over and over and over again (I bought the first ever release in 2001 and in 2004 much of the content was still there and already looking tired, I hate to think how people who bought the 2006 and more recent editions must feel). Rail Simulator (and the sequel, whatever it's called) made a big fuss of how realistic and immersive it was going to be, but instead you had only a few scripted activities, some dodgy gameplay and the railsim community shrugged and just carried on with MSTS.

The result is if you want a UK train driving experience, stick with MSTS and one of Making Tracks' excellent routes (I got my dad the Great Eastern one for Christmas last year and it is quite astonishing what they've managed to make MSTS do) or just drive the Birmingham CrossCity over and over and over again in BVE (which, incidentally, is the daddy for driving the Tube.)

Densha is good, but there's a few annoyances. Unless you drive absolutely perfectly, you'll haemmorage your 'points' (which get deducted when you screw up, run out and game over) at an alarming rate. Go too quickly and you start getting double yellows as you've caught up with the train in front, and this will delay you so much that you'll often ruin your game. Likewise, the stopping point thing is down to the centimetre (I've failed a perfect score because I was off by 30cm) which is infuriating. One Western journo who gave the game a proper review (instead of just laughing) said that in his time living in Tokyo, trains would regularly overshoot the point and reverse, something the game doesn't allow.

I wish there was a DS version, the GBC version is a valiant but ultimately ugly attempt.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 17:23 
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Oh, I apparently have the Wonderswan version of Densha de Go too. Here is the exciting cover artwork -

Attachment:
densha.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 17:28 
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Skillmeister

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Ha! Their interests differ from mine! What a bunch of cunts!

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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 17:56 
SupaMod
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Good god. A thread about driverless trains has actually managed to get even nerdier.

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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 18:06 
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Craster wrote:
Good god. A thread about driverless trains has actually managed to get even nerdier.


Quick.. some derail it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 18:21 
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devilman wrote:
Craster wrote:
Good god. A thread about driverless trains has actually managed to get even nerdier.


Quick.. some derail it.

That pun crossed the (yellow) line


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 18:23 
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baron of techno

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It was the wrong kind of pun.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 20:32 
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kalmar wrote:
It was the wrong kind of pun.
Yeah, mind you it filled the gap.

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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:59 
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Honey Boo Boo

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I apologise for any inconvenience this may cause you.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 14:25 
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£13.30 for a return ticket to Shrewsbury, from Wolverhampton? Madness - I used to be able to get a return to Birmingham (from Shrewsbury) for £7 when I was younger - without a railcard, I might add.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 14:39 
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Part physicist, part WARLORD

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GazChap wrote:
£13.30 for a return ticket to Shrewsbury, from Wolverhampton? Madness - I used to be able to get a return to Birmingham (from Shrewsbury) for £7 when I was younger - without a railcard, I might add.


It costs me £18 to get from the local station to Crewe, return. 30 miles.


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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 0:06 
SupaMod
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Est. 1978

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This thread will do.

Apparently First Capital Connect is being taken over, and the name will officially change this weekend.

They sent me an email, which is nice of them.

"This Sunday, Govia Thameslink Railway will take over the
First Capital Connect franchise and run services under two separate names – Thameslink and Great Northern.

We would like to thank you for your custom over the past 8 years and assure you we are going to do everything we can to ensure a seamless transition to the new operator."

So that's a thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:55 
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Malabelm wrote:
One of Miss Malabar's friends gets paid £30k (a fair bit up here) for watching a robot all day at Airbus. If it goes wrong, he occasionally
Very jealous, though it sounds boring as fuck. I quite enjoy my work, earning half as much as he does.


I guess the 30k is gross income (45.000 euro/year), how much would that be net / per month in the uk?

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 Post subject: Re: Why aren't trains computer controlled?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 23:42 
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About 1700 quid a month I think.

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