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Russian aggression in Eastern Europe
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Author:  metalangel [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 13:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

War is great for business. Think of all the great things we got out of war... like WW2 games, and Hitler.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R6xCWcf_VU

Author:  MrChris [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 13:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

No youtube at work, will look later.

Was it Naomi Klien? Wolff? something like that, wrote a book recently about "conflict capitalism" and hawked it for all she was worth in the Guardian for months on end. It's just a recycling of the old "military/industrial complex" trope of the 60s. You may as well throw in the Zionists and the lizardmen and have done with it.

You're right though - some of the bestest things we have, we have war (huh!) to thank for. Also, of course, some of the worst things. Like Siegfreid Fucking Sassoon and his interminable poetry.

Author:  metalangel [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 13:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

You won't think war is so cool when you're crawling away from mortars, and you put your hands in a pile of mush that used to be your buddy's face, man.

Author:  MrChris [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 13:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

MetalAngel wrote:
You won't think war is so cool when you're crawling away from mortars, and you put your hands in a pile of mush that used to be your buddy's face, man.

If you think I plan on being anywhere except in the underground command bunker along with the rest of the capitalist elite, periodically laughing maniacally as the monitors show another multiple gibbing (of whose troops we do not much care. It's the body count that matters) you've got another thing coming.

Author:  Malabelm [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 13:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

MetalAngel wrote:
You won't think war is so cool when you're crawling away from mortars, and you put your hands in a pile of mush that used to be your buddy's face, man.


As long as there's a medic to paddle me and/or throw a medipack at my face, I'm not afraid of anything.

Author:  DavPaz [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 13:23 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
the rest of the capitalist elite

Ha hahaha hahahahahaha, ahahahahaha, ahahahahahahhahhahahaahahahaha!

You're a lawyer.

Author:  MrChris [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 13:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

DavPaz wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
the rest of the capitalist elite

Ha hahaha hahahahahaha, ahahahahaha, ahahahahahahhahhahahaahahahaha!

You're a lawyer.

Yeeeeesss? Your point being?

I know the difference between a serviette and a napkin, which is the main indicator of these things.

And anyway, someone has to write the contracts under which said command bunker will be built, and there will be a clause requiring accommodation for one Mr K. Issyfur.

Author:  Zardoz [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 13:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

Malaboob wrote:
As long as there's a medic to paddle me.

:hat:

Author:  kalmar [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 13:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
under which said command bunker will be built


So that's why your house fell down!

Author:  MrChris [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 13:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

kalmar wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
under which said command bunker will be built


So that's why your house fell down!


Heh. A solicitor who acts for himself has a fool for a client, as they say.

I'm not sure which "they" I mean there, but, y'know, them.

Author:  Bobbyaro [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 13:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
I am annoyed and disappointed in equal measure that this didn't come to anything. Perhaps this displays some huge sociopathic character flaw that I was unaware of, but I don't care. I'm bored and I want to be entertained, and nothing less than full scale global war will do, thank you very much.

The continuing low-boil trouble in west Pakistan, and the haven this provides to the mixed bag of fantasists and inadequates playing their be-turbaned Boys Own games in east Afghanistan, remains mildly concerning, but one would have thought that if anything was going to get the jihadist nutjobs running around in the hills of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas to rise up and stage some sort of takeover in Pakistan, the recently applied water-based apocalyptic wrath of Allah would have provided the ideal opportunity, what with the already fractured state being at its weakest. But no, nothing happens, except that they threaten to kill western aid workers coming over to assist the poor benighted rural peasants who have been hit hardest by the government's preference for spending on arms rather than civil improvement. Well fucking done, guys. All that running through lines of tyres with AK-47s over your head really prepared you well.

Perhaps this proves that the threat posed by a destabilised Pakistan has been hugely overstated here in the West, and that the main destabilisation issue we have to worry about is their destabilisation of the sports betting industry. And the wonderful sidebar to that is entertainment provided by the delightfully be-monikered Ahsan Butt. Every cloud, eh?

Of course, the other argument for some sort of "action" with respect to Pakistan is that, supposedly, the majority of the unspecified but oh-my-word-so-worrying,-you'd-never-sleep-again-if-we-told-you-about-them-but-trust-us-they-were-horrific-and-real-and-zomg-I've-just-come-on-my-AndyMcNab-novel terrorist plots that have been foiled over the last few years have originated from or (weasel words ahoy) "had links to" Pakistan. So much so that there has been a move, both here and in the US government, from discussing "Afghanistan" to talking about the "AfPak" (*grinds teeth*) problem. But we don't appear to be doing anything about it, apart from occasionally getting some computer games addict in an office in an airbase in the US to fly a drone over the border and blow up some villagers. And given that our own dear Gordon Brown, and now Cameron, claim that Our Boys are dying over in the sandpit to keep our streets safer here, why aren't they expanding that out into Pakistan? Otherwise, given the "porous" border and the fact it's the same people pissing about on both sides of it, what's the point? Or maybe, just maybe, Pakistan, and the dickless idiots blowing themselves up over there in the name of god knows what, isn't that much of a threat to us. Given that we're doing nothing whatsoever about it, I can only assume that's the case, but if it is, why is this Pakistani threat being talked up? Is someone out there looking to start world war 3?

Oh my, maybe it's me.

A year and a half after the previous post, this has to go down as one of the best bumps ever! *salutes*

Author:  MrChris [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 13:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

:DD

Author:  JohnCoffey [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 14:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
myp wrote:
And they eat dogs, so releasing the hounds a la CoD5 wouldn't work.

I think you you're thinking of Koreans. You lacist.


he's ronery.

Author:  MaliA [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

It's on like Pyon (yang)!

Image


Be careful what you wish for

Author:  MrChris [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

Man, just how ronery *is* that guy?

I'm always amazed at South Korea's restraint with these things, but it does seem to have lead to the North thinking "well, we got away with sinking one of their ships, and shelling them... What can we try next? Tee hee"

Author:  Kern [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

I wonder if it's the new North Korean leadership's attempting to show that they still matter. I doubt it will go much further, for even a country with as rotten and nutty rulers as NK must know that any attempt to cross the demilitarized zone would be extremely suicidal for the country and their regime.


If I'm wrong, I'll see you in the glowing wastelands :)

Author:  MaliA [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

From another place:

Yuto wrote:
Photo Update!

Tourists take pictures:
Image

Another angle:
Image

Fire spreading:
Image

South Koreans shooting back:
Image

Artillery fire and F16's scrambling:
Image

Looks like its getting serious!

Real updates:
Quote:
Fires on S Korean island burning out of control, say witnesses.


Quote:
S Korea military says one soldier has been killed and three seriously hurt in the shelling.


Quote:
South Korea not considering taking border incident to United Nations.



:?

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

I'd guess that one of the reasons is that South Korea are very highly US influenced. Whereas the US are no fans of the north, given the volatility between Iran and Israel, they don't want to encourage retaliation in Korea for fear of giving the israelis a blank cheque to respond if provoked.

Author:  MaliA [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 13:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

Awesome!!

North Korea wrote:
...continue to make merciless military attacks with no hesitation if the South Korean enemy dares to invade our sea territory by 0.001mm....It is our military's traditional response to quell provocative actions with a merciless thunderbolt.

Author:  chinnyhill10 [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 13:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

MetalAngel wrote:
You won't think war is so cool when you're crawling away from mortars, and you put your hands in a pile of mush that used to be your buddy's face, man.



Author:  Squirt [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
I'd guess that one of the reasons is that South Korea are very highly US influenced. Whereas the US are no fans of the north, given the volatility between Iran and Israel, they don't want to encourage retaliation in Korea for fear of giving the israelis a blank cheque to respond if provoked.

My theory on this is that as North Korea seem to be barely able to hold their shit together in peace time, proper war with the south would result in their entire state falling apart as what little remains of their infrastructure is turned to war use and then exploded. South Korea would easily beat ( with some US help ) the North Korean army, whose tanks and trucks would all break down and run out of petrol, but then they'd have to deal with 500,000 hungry soldiers through down their weapons and demanding to be fed, followed by 2 million hungry civilians taking their chance to cross the border and get some food and a chance at a decent life.

Author:  MaliA [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

Squirt wrote:
they'd have to deal with 500,000 hungry soldiers through down their weapons and demanding to be fed, followed by 2 million hungry civilians taking their chance to cross the border and get some food and a chance at a decent life.



Reunification of the Koreas would absolutely fuck South Korea up for those reasons.

Germany's reunification was probably one of the worst things ever to happen to the country.

Author:  Kern [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

MaliA wrote:
Reunification of the Koreas would absolutely fuck South Korea up for those reasons.


Also China doesn't want a mass influx either.

Author:  Kern [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

MaliA wrote:
Germany's reunification was probably one of the worst things ever to happen to the country.


Economically, yes. Certainly, part of the problem was Kohl's insistence on an exchange rate of 1:1 for the first 10,000 Ostmarks or so, which was a massive over valuation but had the politically affect of suggesting that the Ossies weren't second class.

EDIT but then, two German states wouldn't have lasted - unification was the only way once communism collapsed (and let's be honest, other than the Trabant it wasn't that much of a success, was it ;P )

Author:  MaliA [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

To be fair, the East Germans got a pay increase to normalize West German pay levels, civil liberties, passports, huge social welfare system, infrastructure improvements and restoration of cultural and historic sites.

West Germany got a massive rise in unemployment, a 5.5% special income tax to prop up the east, a huge rise in far right groups and a country full of social problems.

Author:  Squirt [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

Kern wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Reunification of the Koreas would absolutely fuck South Korea up for those reasons.


Also China doesn't want a mass influx either.

Man, how much must your life suck when being a refugee in northern China seems like a welcoming prospect.

Author:  Kern [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

Squirt wrote:
Man, how much must your life suck when being a refugee in northern China seems like a welcoming prospect.


Aye. I remember reading something recently about how the average height of a North Korean has actually decreased, due to all the famine and food shortages the workers' paradise has. Can't remember the citation, alas, although in Demick's 'Nothing left to envy: real lives in North Korea' the author describes the effects of famine on the human form - the head stays the same but the body declines leading to a sense of it being like Davpaz out of proportion.

A ghastly place, by all accounts.

Author:  MaliA [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

I'd quite like to visit N. Korea, though. Especially after the couple of documentaries I've watched. It does seem to exist in cloud cuckoo land.

Author:  NervousPete [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 13:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

Hello, they're at it again! Those whacky N.K's are upping the rhetoric in a creepy way...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12067735

"North Korea 'ready for sacred war' with the South"

Apparently they've been boasting that they're ready to use their nuclear deterrent, not necessarily in retaliation either. Almost certainly hot air again, but then no one predicted that they'd start shelling islands. Wonder if they're going to try anything on? Crumbs.

Author:  MaliA [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 13:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

Image

Author:  Curiosity [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 13:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan

To be honest, given the current overly-aggressive stance being taken by North Korea, for South Korea to then increase live fire exercises right on the border is absolute bloody lunacy, and appears to be trying to entice the North into starting a war.

Author:  MrChris [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 13:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

So, looks like everyone's favourite Cold War Warrior, bear wrestler, topless combat-trouser-modeller, friend to Nigel Farage and general all round manly man may be the next best hope we have for a worldwide (or at least Europe-wide) conflagration the like of which has not been seen since the 40s. You’re all aware of the shenanigans (if one may call it that) in the Crimea, which managed to provoke the West into a frenzy of apathy, due to a combination of some deft “facts on the ground” created by the ever-canny Putin and the fact he sells us all our gas and we don’t want to piss him off.

The latest instalment, courtesy of Kern, is: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26919928

We do have a treaty with Ukraine, so if they do get invaded properly, I can’t see us doing nothing about it. There will be enormous pressure from the Central and Eastern European NATO members for us to do something, so they are reassured that we’ll step in if they’re next. That or they may end up taking things into their own hands. I can’t see how we can sit back and do nothing at all if there is an actual, honest to goodness invasion. Then again, maybe the takeover of Ukraine will be another Sudentenland-esque approach which allows our fearless leaders to back down without looking like spineless cowards.

It's worth quoting my opening post here:

Quote:
Up until now, Russia had been our best bet for kicking off World War (huh!) 3. Now, however, the once great opponent who met our watery capitalist eyes over the Iron Curtain with a steely communist gaze is a broken shell of its former mass-tractor producing self. Its armed forces are barely functioning, for all the supposedly good kit they have knocking about, and they can barely pay the manpower that they still have. Moreover, if diplomatic push with their effete capitalist running dog foes comes to potential military shove it's entirely unlikely that Mother Russia would actually man up and break out the armoured divisions or the MIRVs. The majority of their wealth derives from selling us fuel, and there's a gravy train they can't afford to derail, for all of Putin's Cold War Warrior rehetoric.


Oh how wrong I was. Then again, a lot has changed in the last few years, and clearly Putin is muchly enboldened by the war-weariness of the main Western protagonists, the massive economic hold he has over Europe (and the scads of cash he's made out of us), and his cast iron position as, effectively, a popular dictator-for-life in Russia

Poor show Pakistan and North Korea, poor show. I had such great hopes for you both.

Author:  Kern [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 13:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

Agree very much with all of this post.

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
We do have a treaty with Ukraine, so if they do get invaded properly, I can’t see us doing nothing about it. There will be enormous pressure from the Central and Eastern European NATO members for us to do something, so they are reassured that we’ll step in if they’re next. That or they may end up taking things into their own hands. I can’t see how we can sit back and do nothing at all if there is an actual, honest to goodness invasion. Then again, maybe the takeover of Ukraine will be another Sudentenland-esque approach which allows our fearless leaders to back down without looking like spineless cowards.


The main risk is that Putin won't quit while he's ahead. He's got Crimea, and could probably force Ukraine to negotiate away/accept the annexation of the eastern territories, but he has to feel that going for anything more, or the westward-looking Baltic states, would be diastrous. And at the moment, I think he's seeing just how far he can go.

Author:  markg [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 13:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

This article linked from that page seems pretty much on the money wrt his likely future plans:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26842065

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 16:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

I think any notion that Europe will (or can) do anything other than precisely fuck all about any of this (apart from stuff like sanctions and much empty words), is laughable, personally.

Author:  Squirt [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 16:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

Nonsense! Right now the various EU Heads of State are writing a *very* strongly worded letter. In the unlikely scenario that that isn't enough, they're willing to write *another letter*.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 16:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

Squirt wrote:
Nonsense! Right now the various EU Heads of State are writing a *very* strongly worded letter. In the unlikely scenario that that isn't enough, they're willing to write *another letter*.


:D

Yeah, I can see Putin and his massed armies and tanks quaking in their jackboots in terror at the very thought of a strongly worded letter from William Hague.

Author:  Satsuma [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 16:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

Squirt wrote:
Nonsense! Right now the various EU Heads of State are meeting to decide whether to writeing a *very* strongly worded letter.


FEEX.

Author:  Squirt [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 17:06 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

I imagine that there is no chance that the EU will intervene militarily without US support, and without that the only tools they have are economic. However, the only thing that will really hurt Russia ( stopping their oil / gas exports ) will mess up our economies almost as much. So that just leaves those letters, and refusing to sell them champagne or decent scotch until they surrender.

Author:  lasermink [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 17:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

I don't know why I even bother writing this, because the tone of the posts above suggests I will be pissing in the wind, but here goes nothing.

EU+USA have seemingly been pouring billions into Ukraine over several years, finally staging a coup against a democratically elected government, putting neonazis in charge in its place.

From a Russian point of view, Putin is simply drawing a line in the sand against western neocolonialism. At least he is doing so openly, instead of using all the covert bullshit tactics employed by the west (I'm not saying he wouldn't use those if he could, mind you). Personally I am a rather terrified by the one sided coverage all this is given in the western media.

I am not suggesting "he" is right and "we" are wrong, but maybe things are a tad more complicated than him being the evil overlord - at the very least I think blaming Putin alone for things coming to this is just a wee bit naive.

Author:  MrChris [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 19:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

Even if that were true, chap:

(a) whether or not Putin likes who's in charge in Ukraine gives him precisely fuck all right to invade the place; and
(b) whether or not he does have any justification for invading, that doesn't change the fact that he is an evil overlord. Stopped clocks and all that.

I'd also query whether the current government of Ukraine, the one that's going to have elections, is "neonazi" and is there as a result of neocolonialism or, indeed, anything that can be described as a "coup" (as opposed to "popular uprising after the existing government murdered tens of its own citizens"). I also wasn't aware that our grand evil Western plan was to put neonazis in charge on our own doorstep.

Author:  lasermink [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 19:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

Whether it was the plan or not, I couldn't say, but:
http://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-mi ... -far-right
http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/27/contr ... overnment/

Author:  lasermink [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 20:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

And instead of "staging", perhaps "setting the stage for" is a more appropriate choice of words, giving the benefit of doubt. Was it a coup or not? I suspect that depends entirely on which side you were on.

Author:  lasermink [ Mon Apr 07, 2014 20:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
whether or not Putin likes who's in charge in Ukraine gives him precisely fuck all right to invade the place

And I certainly never said he had any right. There's just no reason why he should care. And it's not like he's the first to invade a country because he didn't like who was in charge.

Author:  Kern [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

I think whenever there's a major international crisis I don't quite understand, I'm going to rely on Newsround. Their background piece from last month is brilliant.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/26257865

Author:  Grim... [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

That was an excellent write-up. Newsround's ability to explain things well has been mentioned before.

Author:  Bobbyaro [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

lasermink wrote:
I don't know why I even bother writing this, because the tone of the posts above suggests I will be pissing in the wind, but here goes nothing.

EU+USA have seemingly been pouring billions into Ukraine over several years, finally staging a coup against a democratically elected government, putting neonazis in charge in its place.

From a Russian point of view, Putin is simply drawing a line in the sand against western neocolonialism. At least he is doing so openly, instead of using all the covert bullshit tactics employed by the west (I'm not saying he wouldn't use those if he could, mind you). Personally I am a rather terrified by the one sided coverage all this is given in the western media.

I am not suggesting "he" is right and "we" are wrong, but maybe things are a tad more complicated than him being the evil overlord - at the very least I think blaming Putin alone for things coming to this is just a wee bit naive.

While I don't dispute what you have said here, I feel it is naive to consider that Putin has not influenced the Ukraine in a similar manner to the EU. He is influencing overtly now, but I think it is safe to say that he was influencing covertly beforehand.

Author:  lasermink [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 13:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

Bobbyaro wrote:
lasermink wrote:
I don't know why I even bother writing this, because the tone of the posts above suggests I will be pissing in the wind, but here goes nothing.

EU+USA have seemingly been pouring billions into Ukraine over several years, finally staging a coup against a democratically elected government, putting neonazis in charge in its place.

From a Russian point of view, Putin is simply drawing a line in the sand against western neocolonialism. At least he is doing so openly, instead of using all the covert bullshit tactics employed by the west (I'm not saying he wouldn't use those if he could, mind you). Personally I am a rather terrified by the one sided coverage all this is given in the western media.

I am not suggesting "he" is right and "we" are wrong, but maybe things are a tad more complicated than him being the evil overlord - at the very least I think blaming Putin alone for things coming to this is just a wee bit naive.

While I don't dispute what you have said here, I feel it is naive to consider that Putin has not influenced the Ukraine in a similar manner to the EU. He is influencing overtly now, but I think it is safe to say that he was influencing covertly beforehand.

Oh, certainly, one way or another. He (or Russia in more general terms) has obviously had lots of supporters there to act on his behalf.

Author:  lasermink [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 13:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

Possibly the overt vs covert note was another poor piece of wording on my behalf. Both sides have been pouring money into the country, and who's to say how it was spent and for what purpose. I was just trying to point out how all this looks to someone sitting in Moscow, senator McCain doing dealings with Svoboda and so on.

Author:  MaliA [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 18:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: WW3 a go-go with topless Putin?

Why shouldn't we help install a government we're more friendly with?

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