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 Post subject: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 21:41 
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Just watching this Louis Theroux thing on bbc2 about hunting game for sport. I say 'hunting', it appears that stupid americans merely pay to be driven up to animals which are bred to be killed, and then pop them at close range, before getting 'trackers' to find the shot animal who then present the mighty hunter with his trophy. Later, all of these mighty men slap each other on the back while pulling the animals apart and comment how their penis suddenly feels bigger.

I find the whole thing sickening. You really have to be a right cunt to think this is a worthy way to spend your time. Farming for food is one thing, but farming just so an incompetant fat yank twat can rip its head off is quite another.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 22:06 
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Better if the animals never lived, then?

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 22:09 
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I think the one thing I'd concede about the programme is that the desire to hunt propagates the species which otherwise might become extinct. They'd only because extinct, though, because the moronic hunters would be incapable of hunting them 'normally' without ultimately killing them off. So really, remove humans and the animals would be better off.

Louis can be a bit annoying, I don't think it was necessary to incessantly ask the breeder if he thought it was right to kill animals. That's a bit much of playing to the camera and I'm sure it's annoying as hell. So really, I don't blame the guy for going with the demand, because that's business. I'd just rather the demand didn't exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:26 
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It is disgusting..I could link you to many sites about other disgusting hunting or plain old killing practices in America.
They seem to have no regard whatsoever about animals and it makes me sick.
I might have two sketchy areas where I cannot decide one way or other about what is right and wrong but these people are sick imo.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:19 
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As Comical mentioned, it isn't hunting. It is just pre-arranged killing. There is no sport to it, no challenge. Hell, fishing is more of a hunt than some of this stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:07 
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I was just left utterly baffled as to what is going on in these people's heads. I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone can want to kill something just for fun. It was just about the only real insight he could hoped to give with this film but he didn't seem to get anywhere with it.

At the same time though I couldn't get too outraged about any of what was shown, as farmed animals go you'd have to say that these game animals probably have a better life than most of what we eat, even if you go to Sainsburys and buy the most expensive organic, free-range, cruelty-free meat they have to offer.


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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:28 
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It's a rite of passage for some, it's getting back to the old ways for others, it's about fulfilling natural human urges for others. See also: our own royal princes.

Oh - sorry to have to mention America, but - where I visited over Xmas, there is a lot of hunting that goes on during certain times of the year. Culling of the local black bear population (and to a lesser extent the cougars) is required. Otherwise they starve themselves by eating more food than they can naturally find, then either die, or go off rampaging through houses (literally).

The bodies of these slaughtered predators are then given in part to their hunter (for food), but mostly the meat is given to those who have *nothing*, as povery relief. Meanwhile, the bear population continues healthily, and the local predator/prey balance is kept at the status quo.

This gave me a lot to think about.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:44 
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Hunting bear. Fine. Hunting deer out in a whacking great forest. Fine. Don't like it, but there you go.

Driving up to a pen to shoot at quail?

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:45 
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CUS wrote:
It's a rite of passage for some, it's getting back to the old ways for others, it's about fulfilling natural human urges for others. See also: our own royal princes.

Oh - sorry to have to mention America, but - where I visited over Xmas, there is a lot of hunting that goes on during certain times of the year. Culling of the local black bear population (and to a lesser extent the cougars) is required. Otherwise they starve themselves by eating more food than they can naturally find, then either die, or go off rampaging through houses (literally).

The bodies of these slaughtered predators are then given in part to their hunter (for food), but mostly the meat is given to those who have *nothing*, as povery relief. Meanwhile, the bear population continues healthily, and the local predator/prey balance is kept at the status quo.

This gave me a lot to think about.

I know that there are hundreds of good reasons why hunting should continue but I just can't make the leap from that to understanding how someone can enjoy killing in the way those people did. And you could tell they were properly buzzing off it. It wasn't a rite of passage or a getting in touch with some imagined ancient bullshit, they were killing just for the sheer joy.


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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:14 
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A bolt through the lungs, or one in the head.

I think you either accept both, or reject both. As someone who eats meat, I don't have any moral high ground to take against the holiday-hunters.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:27 
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Well, just to clarify my thoughts on this. I accept hunting in order to protect human population and/or other reasonable animal control-based reasons. In much the same way I accept chicken farming and cow breeding so I can have the lovely beefburgers I gorge on a regular basis.

I don't buy into the whole 'you'll eat it but you won't shoot it' type argument, because to me its like saying 'well, you'll live in a house but you won't build it'. People have different jobs that others can't do, either because of a lack of skill or lack of inclination. If you suddenly told me in order to eat meat I'd either have to kill it myself, or go without, that's what I'd do. Similarly if you suddenly (and bafflingly) told me I couldn't live in a house unless I'd built it myself, I'd either learn to build or find some other way to live. Just because I don't kill animals on a daily basis doesn't suddenly make me some kind of dodgy hypocrite - it's a broken argument. Anyone who feels strongly enough about animal welfare will be a vegetarian.

But still, there's a great difference between controlled breeding, humane (or at least I'd hope so) methods of slaughter for food, and just wheeling up to random animals in a 4x4 just to shoot them with guns, not for meat, but for fun. The latter to me is pretty inexcusable.

Hunting, proper hunting, where the end result is a necessary food source can only be justifiable in a world that needs food. But breeding the poor buggers just to shot and then torn apart to no good end, then no.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:33 
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Hang on, I'm a bit lost - would you kill an animal to eat it or not?

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:38 
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I'd hunt to eat, equally I'd hunt for enjoyment, as long as there is a point to the hunting - ie. the meat was going to be hunted by someone anyway for food/resale as food, or to reduce pests. I wouldn't hunt purely for trophies or kicks.

There's probably a bit of hypocrisy in there, but it sits fine with my moral compass.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:46 
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Grim... wrote:
Hang on, I'm a bit lost - would you kill an animal to eat it or not?


If he was forced to, he would make the decision then, is what I think he is saying. As he's not forced to, then he doesn't need to worry about it.

As to the whole hunting thing. I can see the thrill in a "proper" hunt. 1 man against an animal, tracking it, finding it, and then killing it. I can see that, but when it's 10 men, on horses and 50 dogs, or 4 men in a 4x4 with shot guns, and the animals are in a known place, then I just don't see the point. I really don't. But (once again) I don't see the difference between killing that animal for kicks, and buying meat, or leather products, or products tested on animals, or watching a bull fight, or watching a horse race, or having a pet, or anything else that ends up with a dead, injured, or "non natural" life.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:48 
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Grim... wrote:
Hang on, I'm a bit lost - would you kill an animal to eat it or not?


I'm saying I'd have to decide either way. The point is partially moot because in the modern world you can survive quite well being a vegetarian so eating meat becomes a preference rather than a necessity. The missus is a vegetarian so 98% of my meals are meat-free anyway.

Now, if there wasn't any alternative option and it was a case of 'kill the animal in order to survive', then hell yeah, no problem, show me the gun. If you told me I had to kill the cow in order to have a maccies, then I think I could probably survive without maccies. Because you're willing to eat it shouldn't mean you're willing to get your hands covered in blood as you hack it apart yourself.

Again, to use another analogy, it'd be like refusing surgery on the grounds that you weren't willing to perform it on others (assuming I was capable), or something. I'd quite happily have my life saved by a surgeon, but that doesn't then make me hypocritical because I don't have the stomach to cut people open myself. I'm certainly grateful that others do the job I'd rather not do myself, but then I'm also grateful the binmen come and collect my bins.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:52 
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The majority of the people in the show were nutjobs. But off all the possible uses of the land reserved for rearing and then 'fake shooting' wild animals is a pretty good one to be honest.

Worse than a reserve? No doubt. Better than a strip farm or logging? Why yes.

It's a fact that hunters hunt animals whether it's legal or not. And it can threaten animals to extinction, so I would be an idiot to protest hunters 'farming' animals to kill, so that the net loss of animals in the world is zero. A solution to the problem? No. But better? Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:56 
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To be honest I would have had more respect for the guys paying to hunt there if they got out of the truck and had to attack the animals with hammers.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 13:42 
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You're not a hypocrite for living in a house without being a builder.

If you eat meat and you object to hunting for sport, then I think you are a hypocrite. I'm sure if someone weighed the amount of otherwise usable meat that gets thrown away as part of the manufacture and consumption of cooked meats (this includes anything you left on the plate), then it would add up to more than all the animals killed for sport, and would be just as morally unnecessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 13:45 
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AceAceBaby wrote:
You're not a hypocrite for living in a house without being a builder.

If you eat meat and you object to hunting for sport, then I think you are a hypocrite.

I don't object as such for all the logical reasons already mentioned. But I do think that someone who kills something purely for their own amusement is a sick fucking cunt.


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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 13:47 
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markg wrote:
AceAceBaby wrote:
You're not a hypocrite for living in a house without being a builder.

If you eat meat and you object to hunting for sport, then I think you are a hypocrite.

I don't object as such for all the logical reasons already mentioned. But I do think that someone who kills something purely for their own amusement is a sick fucking cunt.


Swap amusement for enjoyment and you could apply the exact same thing to eating, surely?

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 13:53 
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Maybe though that's a type of argument you can apply in most debates. In any case I don't think that the psychology behind enjoying a steak and enjoying shooting something is all that similar.


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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 13:55 
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markg wrote:
Maybe though that's a type of argument you can apply in most debates. In any case I don't think that the psychology behind enjoying a steak and enjoying shooting something is all that similar.


If you had a salad, nothing would have to be killed for your dinner, is I believe the point.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 13:56 
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EXCEPT THE POOR PLANTS. PLANTS ARE PEOPLE TOO.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 13:57 
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I dunno - cow lives in field, herded into building, shot, chopped up and eaten. Deer lives in field, shot, chopped up and hung on wall. Yes, people taking pleasure from it seems a bit weird, but would it be worse eating meat if the abattoir worker really loved his job. Giving the things a decent life and a swift, humane death is more important than what happens to them afterwards, and the motivations for their killing, in my book.


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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 14:00 
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The quality of life for the two will be dramatically different, though (ie - the one bred for shooting will have a far, far happier life in most cases).

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 14:07 
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I remember a few years ago there was a lot of debate over whether or not humans had naturally evolved to be carnivores - studies were done into the physiology of the human body (and teeth in particular) and from what I read the results were inconclusive, but by looking at the front teeth which are used to bite and pull, and the incisor teeth which are used to tear many people reckoned that, yes, humans had evolved as carnivores.

If you look at primitive peoples and also at undeveloped tribes in existence today, humans hunt and eat meat for sustenance. As society has developed and evolved through thousands of years, many cultures became aware or dependent on vegetarian diets - sometimes for religious purposes, and sometimes because of the impracticalities of hunting in certain areas of world, but in many other areas of the world meat was still an important means of sustenance.

Sure, most people now know that they can survive without eating meat - but if humans eat meat by nature then it isn't fair to say it is the same thing as 'hunting' (if you can even call it that when an animal is presented to you and all you have to do is pull the trigger) for sport.

Someone bought up a good point which emerged in this program - that if it weren't for the breeding programs put in place for these hunters then some of the species in question would be in danger, if not already extinct - but what if these strange hunting pens went out of business, or were banned one day? Would all of these animals suddenly cease to be bred? if so, can these people that are breeding them for the hunting farms really claim to be helping the species? many of them were using this as some kind of justification for these farms, but if they are just rolling stock for American's with too much money then is it really saving the species?

Anyway, who'd want dead animal heads on their walls?

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 14:07 
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Squirt wrote:
I dunno - cow lives in field, herded into building, shot, chopped up and eaten. Deer lives in field, shot, chopped up and hung on wall. Yes, people taking pleasure from it seems a bit weird, but would it be worse eating meat if the abattoir worker really loved his job.

This is exactly what I said though, my only point is that enjoying a steak in spite of the fact that somewhere an animal had to die isn't the same as enjoying a day out because you got to kill something.


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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 14:09 
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I'd rather play deus ex than hunt animals. I'm currently chilling with the mole people.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 14:59 
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You can't survive not eating meat, you're issing out on a couple of amino acids that your body can't synthesise.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 15:00 
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All vegetarians are dead?


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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 15:04 
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Dead inside, anyway.

I think vegetarians can get by eating cheese and eggs. Vegans can have issues with various vitamins and minerals (B12. especially)


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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 15:10 
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Squirt wrote:
Vegans can have issues with various vitamins and minerals (B12. especially)


B12 (amongst others) are added to many foods. Most notably Marmite (hurrah!)

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 15:10 
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MaliA wrote:
You can't survive not eating meat, you're issing out on a couple of amino acids that your body can't synthesise.


examples and citation needed

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 15:14 
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pupil wrote:
MaliA wrote:
You can't survive not eating meat, you're issing out on a couple of amino acids that your body can't synthesise.


examples and citation needed


Somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 15:15 
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MaliA wrote:
pupil wrote:
MaliA wrote:
You can't survive not eating meat, you're issing out on a couple of amino acids that your body can't synthesise.


examples and citation needed


Somewhere.


You've convinced me, I better start eating meat! :o

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 15:19 
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pupil wrote:
MaliA wrote:
pupil wrote:
MaliA wrote:
You can't survive not eating meat, you're issing out on a couple of amino acids that your body can't synthesise.


examples and citation needed


Somewhere.


You've convinced me, I better start eating meat! :o


It's somewhere around, google it, I didn't invent the search engine for nothing y'know

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 18:07 
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MaliA wrote:
You can't survive not eating meat, you're issing out on a couple of amino acids that your body can't synthesise.


Well, clearly you can, because you can now find these in other foods and supplements, but it adds more weight to the thought that humans are programmed to be carnivorous and that it is part of evolution that humans ate meat for sustenance, not purely pleasure, but that's what I meant by vegetarianism only coming about after society evolved.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 18:13 
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Mimi wrote:
Well, clearly you can, because you can now find these in other foods and supplements, but it adds more weight to the thought that humans are programmed to be carnivorous and that it is part of evolution that humans ate meat for sustenance, not purely pleasure, but that's what I meant by vegetarianism only coming about after society evolved.


Quite, so now we're all civilised and that, there's no need to go around killing things and eating them just out of habit or whatever. Meat is supposedly not terribly good for you in the long run anyway, although that may be vegetarian propaganda.

And anyone killing animals for fun is clearly someone the relevant authorities should be keeping an eye on, IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:11 
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The point is that if you eat meat in a modern industrialized nation, you are likely part of a system that causes more uneccessary slaughter than all the Great White Hunters in the world, due to pure wastage and profit chasing.

The "debate" is really just about wanting to feel morally superior to rednecks in combat fatigues. We are not better than they. I don't see how allowing animals to die for no good reason, because it's convenient to buy inexpensive packaged meat is morally superior to personally killing them for fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:25 
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AceAceBaby wrote:
I don't see how allowing animals to die for no good reason, because it's convenient to buy inexpensive packaged meat is morally superior to personally killing them for fun.


Quite true, but I don't think anyone was claiming that it was.


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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:29 
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AceAceBaby wrote:
The "debate" is really just about wanting to feel morally superior to rednecks in combat fatigues. We are not better than they. I don't see how allowing animals to die for no good reason, because it's convenient to buy inexpensive packaged meat is morally superior to personally killing them for fun.

I can definitely see what you're saying and perhaps morally superior isn't the right phrase. Is personally running a factory that uses child labourers different to buying goods which for all you know may have been produced in one? I'd say yes, it is though ultimately there's a good argument that it shouldn't be.


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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:09 
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AceAceBaby wrote:
The point is that if you eat meat in a modern industrialized nation, you are likely part of a system that causes more uneccessary slaughter than all the Great White Hunters in the world, due to pure wastage and profit chasing.

The "debate" is really just about wanting to feel morally superior to rednecks in combat fatigues. We are not better than they. I don't see how allowing animals to die for no good reason, because it's convenient to buy inexpensive packaged meat is morally superior to personally killing them for fun.


If you want to follow this point to its natural conclusion:

If you buy just about anything in a modern industrialised nation, you are likely part of a system that causes more unnecessary suffering and slaughter of innocent families/children/nations than any given war, due to greed, corruption and man's inhumanity to man.

If having animals die for my dinner is no better than shooting them so I can jerk off about it later, then really in the grand scheme of things, vegetarianism isn't better either given the amount of needless suffering in the world.

But that's all just a little depressing, isn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:24 
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It is depressing, yes. And being part of the demand is the same as being part of the supply.

We are none of us innocent, is my point. I don't like the idea of whack'em, stack'em and rack'em, but I would consider myself a total hypocrite to argue against it, unless I give up eating meat.

And yes, I stayed out of the China Is Evil Ban The Olympics stuff because I probably have way too much Chinese made stuff, so again, it would be hypocritical.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:30 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 48607
Location: Cheshire
When I was down in Kent a few months ago, we went for a walk, and there was a shoot going on over the way. I really didn't have a problem with it, but Mrs A did. I think I'd quite like to try it someday, but you can stick me in the 'gun toting redneck' box of you want.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:34 
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making out to faces of death

Joined: 1st Apr, 2008
Posts: 2686
Location: Sadville
There's some people my dad know who go out lamping. Farmers are happy with that too.

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 Post subject: Re: Hunting Animals
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:39 
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Sleepyhead

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 27343
Location: Kidbrooke
In summation:

Meat is murder.

Tasty, tasty murder.

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