Be Excellent To Each Other

Just to add to this post, I've been looking into this myself since Shin told me, and I'm reasonably sure that they can't give 4 days notice for someone to leave a property regardless of the circumstances, am I right in thinking this? All the info I've found says it needs to be a minimum of 14 days.

//edit: That letter that Shin quoted above is dated September 15th.

I have no idea, I'm sorry, but as someone going through serious financial shit of my own, you have my sympathy and I hope things work out.

The best advice I could give would probably be to take the letter to the Citizen's Advice Bureau as soon as you possibly can.

Yes, there's quite a few of us with financial problems at the moment. Mine aren't as severe as yours, however. As the good Reverend says, speak to CAB, but also your bank to see if you can sort out your accounts with them as well. I know it's scary, but I'm sure Gay-Unit will help you as much as he can.

Is it implied that the landlady has "not received" those letters so that she has an excuse to boot you out?
Because that'd be pretty poor. I'd reply mentioning copies of dated letters and proof of postage and so on to the lawyer. Dunno if it will actually help but it might throw a spanner in the works of her nefarious plan, temporarily.

Also, hugs.

You need to get in contact by phone with some of the people at this letting office to ask them to explain what the fuck they think they're playing at.

Oh, and record the call.

Do you have copies of the letters you sent? I imagine that will help when it comes to a scrap. I'd imagine proof that you've attempted to work out a reasonable way to pay off your arrears is going to work in your favour.

It might be worth getting another current account so all money you get goes into that, so that the bank can't swipe it for credit cards and fees. Co-op do a very, very bog standard one, I think, which you should be able to get even if some swine has stuck some black marks on your record somewhere.

But tell them that the call is being recorded as soon as the conversation starts.

5th september was when the order took effect, 19th is the eviction date. Theres your 14 days, but you could argue that you werent told of the eviction notice being served.

Either way, you cant remain living there. The extra time would be a help though, that much is obvious, so I'd go to the CAB as many people have said, and become knowledgable and certain of your legal rights as a tenant.

ITs no good them saying "hop it" but only to the letting agent, and noone passing this on.

Although you have acted in a professional manner, by falling into arrears on your account you have probably somewhere broken the fine print in a tenancy contract so your willingness to help sort the situation though admirable probably doesnt affect your rights in this situation.

Best of luck with it.

At the very basic do you have somewhere to move to? Friends / parents / relation / gazchap?

In the first instance, as others have said, you need to collect copies of the letters you sent, any evidence you have of rent paid (rentbook for example), and all the paperwork you signed when you went into the flat up the Citizen's Advice and get some real advice. They are usually excellent and they see this stuff all the time.

What sort of contract did you sign in 2005 and have you signed anything since? It was probably an Assured Shorthold Tenancy for either 6 or 12 months, and you might have signed more contracts since then or not. This bit is important. Under an AST they pretty much can't do what they are doing to you but it depends on what contract you signed in the first place.

Claim squatter's rights!

You have my sympathy also, as someone who has just had a bill for £11.5 thousand pounds land on his doorstep*, I know how you feel.


*New thread to appear shortly!

It's usual to get a new tenant to sign a to agree to a ASL and then after it has expired (usually 6 months) not renew it or offer to renew it. This then places the upper hand with the landlord as the tenant now has only statuary rights and not the 'extra' protection of having a third party act as a kind of 'escrow' for any disputes (which is usual implied in a contract).


Do you have proof of the correspondence you sent i.e. signed proof of receipt ? If not then, to all intents and purposes, you never sent them. If you can prove you did then you maybe able to prove that the landlord was 'refusing' payment but you will still need to pay immediately.

It sounds like your landlord wants you out and as you have missed rent there is nothing stopping him. How much is your rent and how much are you behind? To be honest if you can't afford it then you should move out (easier said then done I know) because unless your landlord expects to have trouble finding another tenant he had no impetus to let you stick around. Even if you were still under contract failure to pay rent would result in the same demands; the landlord has no obligation to accept partial payments.

Unfortunately Shin isn't sure how much she is behind with the rent because she has repeatedly asked them for statements and they've failed to send them to her each time.

I'm of half a mind to ring up her landlords and give them a piece of my mind. 4 days!

I'm quite happy for Shin to live with me until such time as she's saved up enough money to be able to get her own place again, but the problem lies in that I can't have cats in my place (I shouldn't really have the tarantula I'm going to be getting shortly) so she'll have to figure out something there.

Surely it is easy to work it out? How is the rent paid? By standing order or cheque? If so then can't you check your bank statements and work out which payments are missing and therefore how much is owed?

First priority however is find out wherever the landlord really has obtained a magistrates order for removal and find out how, or if, you can challenge it. If you can't then you may as well use any arrears payments to cover the cost of moving. I would also explore whether you are liable to still owe the landlord rental payments for the time spent there but not paid. However if you aren't under contract I doubt he can enforce it.

I'm not a property lawyer but I'm pretty sure that failure to pay rent will constitute a breach of a fundamental term of the tenancy agreement entitling them to terminate the agreement. I'm not sure what the notice period will have to be - if there's nothing in the tenancy agreement (and I suggest you have a look at a copy of it) there may be a statutory minimum, but if it's anything like commercial contracts the notice just has to be "reasonable".

They're under no obligation to help you out if you get behind in your rent, so they're entirely within their rights to evict you as you're in arrears. The only quibble woudl be the length of notice period they have to give you, but unless it's a month or two you're not going to benefit by arguing at this stage.

And although you weren't aware of the extent to which you were in arrears, you knew you were, so ignorance isn't really a defence here, even were it ever.

Sorry, mate - it sucks, but the cards are all with the landlord in this situation. Hope you find something else soon...

One particularly worrying thing in your post though is that you think you'll lose your job - is it a condition of your employment contract that you have a fixed address and aren't in debt to anyone?

BTW I'm not a secret lawyer superhero either but have spent a bit of time looking at this kind of thing when I moved.


Honest.

I can't imagine there's anybody that would consider 4 days as "reasonable" notice though, right?

Well if you think you might "get away" with the tarantula you could always make four little hairy stick on legs for each cat and put them in aqauriums when the landlord comes round.

Haven't you received an order from the local Magistrate's Court ordering you to vacate?

Find out:

Whether a Magistrate's Order has in fact been given.
When it was given.
How long it gave you.

A call to the local Magistrate's court may provide some information whilst you wait to see the CAB (which you obviously are going to do.)

Maybe the local cats protection league might "foster" your cats until you've been able to get everything sorted.

Well, true - but it depends on what the tenancy agreement says. If it says "we can kick you out on 4 hours' notice", that's tough shit if you signed up to it. If it doesn't say anything at all about notice periods when they temrinate for arrears, then I'm not sure what applies - either a statutory period (someone has said 14 days which rings bells), or something like "reasonable". But as I said, unless arguing will get you an extra month or two (which would seem unlikely for an ASTA), it's not really worth the hassle as you'll be due out by the time you get it resolved.
It's shitty but there we are.

I think Mr Chris has blocked me.

As I said - that is quite typical. I'm in the same situation.

This is incorrect. If an Assured Shorthold Tenancy (almost all private rents in England and Wales since 1997 are) reaches the end of its minimum fixed term, it remains in place; all contract terms stay the same. This is then Periodic Tenancy.

The only thing that changes is the clients right to end the contract; at the end of the fixed term the client can leave by providing one month's notice. The landlord's rights to end the contract are unchanged, and can only be executed by providing two week's notice, in writing, if there is a reason to evict; not paying rent, unfortunately, is a reason. This would need to be sent recorded delivery. After that two weeks they can then apply to the court for an eviction order if the tenant hasn't left.

Shin trying to contact them etc doesn't change any of this, but it does make them shit. It is possible that she could convince the magistrate that she had been trying to pay them and it is their fault they haven't contacted her with statements etc. If that happens, I think they could toss out the two weeks notice thing, and go back to the default legal requirements when there is no breach of contract, which is two month's notice. By the time the court case gets a date etc that would be around Christmas now.

My gut says if Shin actually manages to speak to the landlords and say this ("I will get up in court and show them copies of numerous letters sent from me asking for clarification of my payment history that you ignored, and therefore I had no idea how much I should be paying so if I got it wrong, I'm very sorry but it's not my fault") they may suddenly back down. Companies are often less keen on pushing you around once you demonstrate you know exactly what your rights are.

HANG ON I just reread the first post. An "order for possession" can only come from the court, and it can only come after they have proven to the court (usually they post things registered delivery for this) that they gave you the correct amount of notice (two weeks if there are rent arrears, two months normally) that they were seeking it. As you have had no such notice it's invalid. Craig is right -- ring the local Magistrate's Court and ask if they've done this, and if so, how they have possibly received proof of something that hasn't happened.

More here.

SPEAK TO CITIZEN'S ADVICE RIGHT NOW. I AM NOT A LAWYER. EVEN THE TOKEN BETEO LAWYER CAN'T ADVISE YOU. On which note, good god man, what use are you?

I'm aware I'm arguing legalise with a lawyer, but surely your statutory two-weeks-or-two-months notice period cannot be signed away in a contract because it's, like, statutory?

I disagree, reading the first post at face value suggests the landlord has not followed the correct procedure for the possession order as they didn't give Shin two week's notice that they would be seeking it. Further, her pursuing them to make payments, requesting statements, and so forth muddy the waters as to whether she should be getting two weeks or two months notice; yes, she is in arrears, but for all the Landlord knew she had all the money to settle the arrears to hand weeks ago and just needed to know how much to pay. I think she has a good chance of buying some time in the current property. I agree she's almost certainly going to have to leave, unless the landlord suddenly changes their mind, but hopefully not this Friday.

Pow! What a combo there from The Gaywood! That's gotta smart!

Thanks Gaywood. If that's the case it puts my mind at rest and is contrary to what I have been told.

BUT:
@ Shin:
Look - if you haven't paid your rent you will be thrown out. You need to honestly ask yourself how this situation was allowed to occur. It probably won't feel like it now but this may put you on a more stable financial footing in the future.

I reiterate - how is the rent paid? Surely not by cash? If it comes out of your bank then you must know how much you owe by calculating how much you have missed? Simple surely?

You know it, bitch. I've reduced many a helpline operator to rubble when companies cross me. See, for example, my most excellent Calibra story.

Don't call me ....ARRRRRRGGHHHH NOT THE FACE!!!!!

Well, I make very good Thai curries.



Ah, see, I meant a statutory notice period which applies in the absence of a contractual period - I was going with an analogy with commercial contracts - if in a contract for services you don't stipulate a termination notice period, the law says it just has to be "reaosnable". It may be that the law relating to ASTAs says that you cannot ever contract for less than two weeks (or whatever) notice even when you're massively in breach of the tenancy agreement, but I don't know - it sounds as if you're saying that's the case? If so that's excellent.

And you can contract out of certain statutory things, by the way (such as swathes of the Sale of Goods Act), which is odd on the face of it, but them's the results of a "light touch" regulatory regime. Bloody Thatcher. One would hope that any minimum notice period for ASTAs wouldn't be one of them, though. If you're saying that's the case then that's a good thing, certainly, and will help Shin.



Perhaps, but it comes down to what the provisions of the tenancy agreement say, really. Without that it's difficult to say. And in any event, if she's in arrears, she's in arrears, it doesn't matter if she has the money to pay or not. And the request to come to an arrangement sugggested to the landlord that she didn't have the cash to hand anyway... So it comes back to the notice period - and I'd agree it sounds as if they haven't complied with it - 4 days isn't 2 weeks.



Well, I'd hope you're right - I'm, not sure how she can go about it though - other than refusing to leave and asserting that they haven't complied with the tenancy agreement and given her her two weeks statutory notice? And that isn't going to be fun when the gorillas turn up.

I'd agree with the suggestions to go to CAB as soon as possible - they will know a gazillion times more about all of this than us, as it's a very common problem.

EDIT - just reread everything, and the bit about the possession order trumps everything, I think? Gaywood for the win!

Yeah, he deffo has me blocked.

What HappyCopse has posted basically mirrors what I found out in my own investigations, and leads me to think that the landlord may just be trying bullying tactics to get her out.

?

Are we playing Go or something?

Do CAB have a helpline that you can call instead? That way you could just give 'em a ring now.

Well that's just it CashZap - where is the Court Order? If he has the nut flush he needs to show it.

@Shin: I never said anything that intended to offend you and I apologise if it has. However what you said does seem to suggest that the rent takes up a disproportionate amount of your income; to the point that the tiniest fluctuation could incur in the non-payment of rent. This isn't sustainable and you need to change this if you want to achieve any kind of financial and domestic stability.



I really can't understand how you can be in this situation. Can you explain how you didn't know how much you hadn't paid?

I am talking from experience and really do wish you the best.

CAB do have a helpline but it's a bit hit and miss.

The landlord in question isn't even local though as far as I can work out.

//edit: By which I mean that it's hard for Shin/me to go over there and try and sort this out in person.

Good luck, Shin!

Sorry I can't be of any help with my lawyer hat on - I apparently chose the least-useful-to-people specialism.

It's been an educational thread though - I didn't know you had to get a court order to enforce a termination provision of the tenancy agreement. I had always assumed that you just gave the tenant the required notice and that they then had to move out on the termination date or they were trespassing and could be batted by the landlord until they left. I shall have to remember this when I become a slum landlord in my retirement.

Mr Chris: Yes they do.

Shin: Call them, now.


TBH it would seem to me to be fairly simple arithmetic to know how much you owe in rent minus how much you paid.

And for the people still banging the 4 days drum - it would seem that you have overlooked my previous post that puts a reasonable explaination on why there are 4 days notice, but that would have to be confirmed by contacting the magistrates court.

Should be sortable on all counts, just need to get everything in order first, such as those stubbs you speak of, any evidence of correspondance etc etc.

I would sort all that first, then attack it headon.
Dont call someone up without the confidence instilled by facts.

I've not overlooked your previous post there Lace, but even if there IS a court order and it was filed on September 5th, that still doesn't make it "14 days". Otherwise they could have held on to the info until the 18th and given Shin 1 day notice and it'd still be legal.

Pray - 'love tap' ?

Physical abuse by sounds of

I'm no expert but from the experience of friends that sounds to me more like the sort of thing that should be treated with talking therapy rather than drugs.

There seem to be deeper issues then we can deal with really.Sorry

Have you actually phoned the courts to see if an order for possession was filed by then and what they say your legal standing is on this, yet?

Seeing the CAB tomorrow is a good thing, but doing this first would be prudent - get your facts, your actual facts, straight, because you seem to have most of those very confused if you don't even know how much you owe. You must have a rough idea, maybe the courts can clarify exactly how much. That information will be helpful to you tomorrow when you go to the CAB.

If you haven't called the courts to see if something has been filed yet, don't wait. Do it now, you have 1 hour or so to do this in, don't procrastinate, take the advice of Gaywood, Craig and the rest and do that as soon as you can. That information will give you something to start on. Knowing where you stand will help you calm down at least, you know what beast you are dealing with then, plus the date you legally must be out by before the bailiffs turn up.