Be Excellent To Each Other

I've mentioned this before, but I used to work with a professional ice hockey team. The term for it is "puck bunnying" and what those girls do to get a player is frightening. It got to the point where we were blocking off areas and sending stewards into the ladies loos to stop them getting near the team.

There is one girl who has gone through about 15 players across three teams. With, I hasten to add, the encouragement of her mother.

My wife knew some of the players from her time in the US and moved on to being the official photographer for the team. The players liked her as she was clearly there on a professional basis and used to chat about back home, or hockey in general, but the hate that she got for merely being near the players had to be seen to be believed.

Sadly quantity beats quantity any time. Us intellectuals, we've got jobs.

Want
OOh, you could almost be Ryu or Ken

Please continue.

Or the human torch!

I think this is in the wrong thread!

Malc

Be honest, though, man - yes, of course there are exceptions but the vast majority of times that women are portrayed in a sexual context, they're objectified. I'm not sure how you could argue differently in anything approaching good faith.


You're mashing a lot of stuff together here, some of which as you say is entirely healthy to anybody remotely sensible, some of which is more problematic (porn as a concept, absolutely fine. The vast majority of porn as it currently exists - massively, heinously objectifying).

Personally, I've not come across anything approaching "The New Prudishness". Have you any examples I could take a gander at?


I know that, I'm just saying it's easy to convince yourself that nothing needs to be done when doing something is going to change an aspect of the world that's slanted to benefit you at the moment. Not saying that's what you're doing, just that it's an easy trap to fall into.

See? Told you it was easy.


Of course it is, but we were specifically talking about the portrayal of women in the media, so that's what I was restricting my comments to. And we're not just talking about lad's mags here, the problem is vastly more widespread and much more subtle than that.


It can sometimes make for a pretty leery, unpleasant atmosphere on this board, though. Speaking purely for myself, I find it pretty nasty and intimidating from time to time.

Just saying.


Agreed, education is bloody important. Which is why having your prejudices subtly or not-so-subtly reinforced by every other advert you're exposed to probably isn't a great thing.

At some point, you've got to stand up and say "I realise this may not be the root cause, but even so it's just not acceptable." Otherwise the Black And White Minstrel Show would still be on the air.


You're talking about two slighty-overlapping but separate issues, here.

Heat and the like primarily cause problems with how women see themselves. FHM and its cronies primarily cause problems with how men see women.

What you're saying is true as far as it goes, I'm not sure how bringing up a different aspect of the media's generally shoddy portrayal of women is meant to support the statement that the issue of objectification is "overstated".


I don't think sexism is a binary state, something you either are or you aren't. I think it's a bunch of attitudes and behaviours and reactions that we all lapse into from time to time because that's how society moulds us, and all we can really do is checkity-check ourselves before we wreck ourselves. So to speak.

But I digress.

"All sexy stuff is bad" is obvious nonsense. I am all in favour of sexy. Censorship is bad. I don't think we're in fundamental disagreement, I just think you're in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

edit - A million bloody quotes, I was never going to get all of them right.

Without adding a million more lines of quotes, I do see what you're getting at Rodafowa and largely agree with you, but I guess given that I do not feel that my view of women has in any way been affected by any portrayal of women in the media, I am struggling to understand the way in which it would have this effect on others (although I *do* accept that it must do) - and that if someone is so completely fucking stupid as to think that women aren't more than the sum total of their body parts, I can't see how they wouldn't be exactly like that anyway absent FHM/Nuts/etc, Footballers' Wives, the use of women in advertising etc. There's no particular reason why lots of images of scantily clad men and women should cause any societal problems, other than the neanderthal and juvenile minds of a (tragically rather large) number of the beholders. I recall reading that Pompeii was full of carvings on interior and exterior walls of people in orgies, which was interesting. At the other end of the scale, Victorian Britain had no shenanigans of any sort in public, yet women were still treated as servile domestic slaves and breeding units.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, "objectification" isn't per se a bad thing. We all naturally objectify the opposite sex at times and to extents. It's the context of or actions subsequent to that objectification that can be problematic. Vast amounts of high art involves the objectification of the male and female form, but I don't think either of us would think that this causes men to actually treat women like objects, or indeed vice-versa. The difference between The Birth of Venus and a copy of FHM is the likely audience.

Ultimately, get rid of skimpy sexual portayals of women and you've still got the problem. If we get rid of all of the ungentlemanly men we're sorted.

I'd be interested to hear/see what it's like in Scandinavia in relation to all this sort of thing, given the vastly more grown-up attitude they have to all things sexual and naked.


As for "the New Prudishness" - just search for "sex" or "pornography" on the Guardian website. I'll try and dig out some other specific articles other than that Bidisha one I linked to earlier, but I'm supposed to be doing some work today and I've already spent ages on this...

That Channel 4 "Sex Education" thing last night was also a good example. Whilst it had a noble aim, it really did seem like they had someone's maiden aunt do it. An example - the presenter woman was in search of new underwear to liven up her sex life*, and tried on a few different sets. She was scathingly rude about various sets of underwear that were pretty similar to those owned by Mrs Chris and many past Mrs Chrises, and then settled on something fairly solid, on the grounds that "it didn't make her look like a whore" - neatly categorising the squillions of women who buy frilly or skimpy underwear as being slags (including most of her studio discussion group - there were some scowls). Nice. Mrs Chris was unimpressed in the extreme.



*As an aside, she was extremely unflattering about her boyfriend and her desire to do sex with him - Mrs Chris remarked that he'd be finding it difficult to show his face in work today, and that she wouldn't have blamed him had he dumped her immediately upon viewing the program. She also suggested that he's probably already justifiably shagging someone else. I was shocked.

Prude.

Seriously though, I don't find the atmosphere here intimidating or nasty when talking about women. There's the odd 'would' post, and discussion of various womens' merits, but nothing I'd consider nasty.

Out of interest, what would you consider nasty or intimidating?

I've been in offices where the women have been more incredibly explicit in their discussion of men than the men would be about women when chatting with their mates down the pub - working at L'Oréal really was an education. I'm rarely shocked, but goodness me.

Also - having watched a few episodes of Friends recently, I have come to the concusion that Sir Mixalot is actually a feminist.

What are womens!?

They're like men but wired up all wrong.



Joking ladies! Joking!

Peoples with titses.

It wasn't meant to be taken as a criticism. What I mean is that you feel that you are able to handle yourself in situations that may arise if unwanted attention is given (you've already said that you'd feel it quite within your abilities to hit a man in the face with the base f your hand. I couldn't do that. For a start I'd almost certainly break my hand, but I'd also be too scared of consequences of actually getting in a fight (with a man/woman, whoever). You may enjoy the attention, or you may not care one way or the other, I do because it makes me feel uncomfortable and anxious, and as long as there are people who don't warrant nor enjoy the attention that is paid to them for none of their own doing then it is a problem.




I wouldn't take it to be aimed at me, because I have no man to come and save me when things go wrong and I am out of my depth a lot of the time. Most of the time that I experience trouble I am by myself. I had a horrible thing happen to me today, which I couldn't handle. I'm not bolshy, nor am I smart mouthed, but most of all I do not have the confidence to defend myself. It's not about getting some balls (which is an interesting term, anyway - why would a woman want to have balls?) but who's going to win in any physical situation? And if you don't want any undue attention, then what's the point of mouthing off? it's only going to bring more unwanted attention your way

Female tennis players?

Oh! Those kinds of balls!

What do women scratch in the morning then?

I'm reliably informed that they scratch their tits.

Under the circumstances, "chesticles".

The back of the neck. Oooh, I love having someone gently scratch or tease the back of the nape of my neck.

Yawwwnnn, good morning!

Tmuk: Scratch your boobs? No! For one thing they don't (or at least shouldn't) itch, and also the skin is really delicate, you'd just end up with huge scratch lines on them

So tits don't itch? I've learnt something new today!

No, they don't itch. I don't want to think about it too much but I assume that men's bits itch because they are hairy or sweaty. Breasts are neither of those things and are itch free. Well, mine are itch-free, anyway

Or crawling with lice.

According to that "Sex Education" thing on Channel 4 last night, 60% of men indulge in pubic topiary, so they're unlikely to be hairy and sweaty in the majority of gents' cases, nor welcoming to lice.

Yeah, I just do it because it feels top.

The topiary or the scratching?

Scratching. Although shaving my balls can feel wonderful too.

Ample timing, because I was mugged today. Self defense would have helped me not at all, because there was a knife in his pocket. You are best staying quiet and giving over your bag. or, if you are like me, standing there as they take the bag off of you. Self defense is a good thing, but physical retaliation is the last thing that you want to start if someone has a weapon of any sort and it is only material goods that you are giving over.



No, Shin, I do not. You do not understand me to the point that you can make assumptions of what I mean, and I am offended that you put it that I 'probably define 'bolshy' as being a mouthy skip-rat of a woman' because I said I thought you might have been a bit more bolshy that myself, because you are essentially saying that I define you as such, which is absolute nonsense. I meant strong-willed, stubborn, defiant in your ways, and counter-aggressive, so why you'd think that anyone would define you in the way you seem to infer that I did is beyond my reckoning.

Not a wet shave surely? And wouldn't it grow back stubbly and itch like hell?

Aw Mimi that's dreadful. You did the right thing in the circumstances.

You alright now? Been in touch with the Police?

No, guardless Wahl. You get the benefit of the humming vibrations along your gooch.

Shit

Are you okay, Mims?

If I'm not posting tomorrow, you've got blood on your hands Zardoz. Or rather I have.

Sorry to hear that Mimi, you seem to run in to no end of trouble

I'm really sorry/angry/appalled to hear about that, Mimi.

Indeed - really sorry to hear that mimi.

There seem to be a lot of awful things happening round your way - are you able to/want to move to somewhere less dangerous?

Yeah, it was earlier on today, about 11:15. I went to Harrow but I had luckily put in the £400 cash I was depositing into my account at Neasden for some reason, so I only* had £130 cash and my cards, and I had forgotten my mobile on my desk (though I didn't realise this until I got back home). I sat by the bus stop after it happened because I was a little shaky and a women came by pretty soon afterwards, so I told her and she called the police. I went to the station afterwards, but I am pretty sure that nothing will come of it by the way they were speaking to me. The police officer who spoke to me after the woman at the bus stop called was particularly dismissive.

Anyway, I am a bit shaken up and a bit upset, but it is my best friend's birthday meal (well, just for the two of us) this evening, so I am trying to concentrate on that. All my cards and whatnot have been cancelled, so the main loss was the cash, but I am lucky that it wasn't £530 and that I decided to put the money into the account before going to Harrow.

I should only ever go to Brent Cross.


*£130 is still a lot, obviously, but I have to look on the positive side that it wasn't the full amount, I guess.

Edit: Thanks guys, Yeah, I am OK, I called Craig up and got a bit upset a few hours ago, but I am OK after a hot shower and a bit of Viva Pinata, and my nan gave me a bit of cash to take Jackie out for a meal tonight and to tide me over until I can get my cards back.

Now, Jackie - she can handle herself. We were out one day and two lads were walking to pass us and one lent in my face and sad 'boo!' for no reason. Jackie rounded on them 'what do you think you are doing? What, you think we're scared of you?* You little prick. F*ck off back home to your mummys'. Hehe, I love her, she is such a little spitfire.

*(I was.)

Mr Chris: actually, I made it through the killing fields of Neasden just fine today , I actually decided to have a day shopping in Harrow for a change, which is where it happened I'll not be going there again.

*continues to work on 'death by the power of thought' powers*

Oh hell Mimi, I'm sorry, that's horrible. Glad you're feeling a bit better and I hope it doesn't completely ruin your evening.

You mean that big list of crimes that's less common than it used to be?

Move up North Mimi away from these turds.

I can arrange for my Whipit drawn hovis cart to collect you, just say the word.

It won't, Rodafowa - well I hope not, at least. I really didn't feel up to going out tonight when I got home, but I see Jackie so rarely, and I miss her so much that I am determined to just enjoy her company tonight. I have spoken to Craig a couple of times and I didn't want to tell Jackie but I will do right at the beginning of the evening, just get it over and done with, and she'll wish death on them Comical-style, and it will be out the way, otherwise, as Craig says, she'll nip to the loo and come back to me in tears. Jackie thinks I am too soft, but that's only because she is hard as nails on the inside (but all soft and cute on the outside)

Do I get a complimentary flat cap, Zardoz?

Actually, I have a flat cap - my grandad gave me his when I went to visit him yesterday. I always put his hat on when I visit him, and I've hung it on my mirror.

No, that had nothing to do with saying that I thought you were more bolshy than me. I never said that you were want to mouth off, just that I would not find it prudent myself to mouth off - that doesn't in turn infer that you do.

Even if I had tried to reflect that at you, no-one anywhere, ever has said nor implied that anyone who were bolshy would be a 'mouthy skip-rat'.

I do not mouth off because, to my mind, it would only bring more trouble. I refer to people in general, not you in person, so don't take things that are said as personal insults against yourself, because they are not given as such. Don't take things so personally

How did you end up with broken ribs from a mugging, Shin?

I have been mugged three times and had my bag snatched one. Muggers do not usually care to cause harm as in the long run it makes the heat on them all the greater as the police are more likely to follow it up. When I have been mugged they just want the money and goods in your bag, it's double crap if you chance upon one that wants to hit as well.

Some people are just idiots.

You should have just given them the money. It doesn't matter how much birthday money any of you had on you, it would have been better to have lost that than to have your friend knocked unconscious and for you to end up with a load of broken ribs.

We learned self defence at school, the first thing they said was that if someone wants your purse or bag just give it to them, it's common sense that your health should come before your possessions.

I also learned that a magazine 'can be as strong as an iron bar' if rolled properly and that kicking in the balls and running is the best thing to do 99% of the time if you are physically attacked by a man.