Be Excellent To Each Other

Not really - the same techniques are used in both instances - massive generalisations, and when talking live to a client, eeking out more detailed information. There was once a series of programmes on Channel four where they taught somebody the basic technique and got them to pass themselves off as an astrologer, tarot card reader, spiritualist, always using the same technique.

I also once saw a Derren Brown show (oh, hello again Derren, by the way) where he went to America and passed him off as a genuine practitioner in each of these 'professions' using the same technique, also.

They are all part of the same con.

I've suddenly realised Myp may have been making subtle joke there.

True, but the difference between homeopathy and, say, contacting the dead, is that if you're a religionist the latter actually has some possibility of being true within your frame of reference, I guess.

I'm pretty sure that was was Myp's 'least noticed joke ever'.

I've already said that.

Then reenvigorate it with something useful. When people talk about astrology being fun and interesting, I'm always reminded of Monty Python's Galaxy Song:

Whenever life gets you down, Mrs. Brown,
And things seem hard or tough,
And people are stupid, obnoxious or daft,
And you feel that you've had quite eno-o-o-o-o-ough...

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the "Milky Way".

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

(Animated calliope interlude)

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

When we live in a universe like that, why do we need fantasies to make it more interesting?

Haha, no, I noticed it, I didn't realise that someone had taken him seriously, though

In fairness I'm not sure that most people if pushed really do believe it. They are knowingly indulging in a mostly harmless flight of fancy and if we're going to start banning everything which most reasonable people can enjoy safely but which for a minority causes problems then, well, just fuck that.

Yeah, I don't read what you write. It's all mumbo-jumbo and supersitious bunkum.

Yes, yes, I agree with you there. There are lots of con-artists who do that kind of thing. I'm talking about friends of friends who do it for no fiscal reward, but as a hobby. I'm a sceptic mainly, but once they managed to contact my dead Granddad and told me he said things that they would have no way of knowing.

Coincidence perhaps, but it weirded me out a bit.

Yes, I get it, but it's a very dangerous thing. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts, and wanting it to be right doesn't make it so.

That said, I hope you don't take this personally - it certainly isn't intended in that way.

I know, I don't do subtle very often...

I recommend his book "Tricks of the mind", there's a great chapter in it, including a time he cold read personal readings for 2000 students and got back 95% positive results.

Trouble is, he used the exact same reading for all of them, and wrote it a week before he met any of them, it's reprinted in the book.



This is mentioned in the book too, including exactly how they do it.



I'm sorry but they don't have to, you probably didn't realise it but you told them, again, book.

I am of scientific mind, so I don't believe in homeopathy, astrology, tarot etc etc. I think Reiki, aura cleansing, crystals etc are just things that dress up relaxation and meditation techniques. But, I feel more than anything that as long as something is taken in context, without it impeding are harming anyone else, then go for it. If you like Astrology for your own interests and don't let it negatively affect aspects of your life and the people around you, then enjoy it Shin and be happy.

I don't want to be mean here, but it's very easy for them to give that appearance and make you think that. It's amazing what you give away without knowing.

I'll shut up about it now, but I'm afraid you were badly conned there by the kind of cynical manipulative trickster I REALLY hate simply because they're effectively using your dead relatives to turn a buck. The cunts.

If you ever actually want to know what happened then "Tricks of the mind" is at every book store in the universe.

Astrology is (largely) benign.

Anyone claiming to be reading or worse, claiming to let you talk to a dead relative or friend is lying, conning scum of the worst order making fortunes entirely off conning people at their most vulnerable.

If you're going to be cheered up by something imaginary, at least make it something brilliant, like flaming unicorns fighting zombies with shotguns.

Also, I do horoscopes. £15 and I'll do yours, Shinny dear.




Contacting the dead is definitely bollocks. It's all cold reading and bullshit, as Mimi said. Nobody's ever proven any ability to do anything of the sort. Ghosties too, more than likely - there's never been anything remotely scientifically credible to prove their existence. At most, there have been curious happenings. That doesn't mean ghosts any more than it means pixies.

If someone claims to be psychic or know your future, try this: lie to them. Give them false positives and see what kind of bullshit they come up with. Better yet - say nothing. Confirm absolutely nothing that they ask you, and don't move. Don't even change your expression. If they're fucking psychic/talking to the dead, they shouldn't need to ask you anything. They'll draw a complete blank, because it's all cold reading bullshit. All they do is throw out lots of vague possibilities and probabilities based on your age and appearance and body language, and get you to confirm any hits. It's been documented hundreds of times, and many honest showmen like Penn and Teller and Derren Brown have exposed it publically countless times. 'talking to the dead' people in particular are fucking scum because they cash in on other people's misery when they're at their most vulnerable, and fuck up the grieving process no end.

Oh hon - the last thing I want to do is to upset you, but really, they didn't. I think this is why this kind of thing is so difficult, because there is so much scope for people investing their memories and emotions into the words of a stranger who is very skilled at saying what you want to hear.

My cousin once came back from a spiritualist saying she was a sceptic but now she believed. The spiritualist found out that she knew someone who has passed away in the October of the previous year. What convinced Lynsey was that the spiritualist said that Lynsey had felt 'hurt' at Christmas. Lynsey actually took this as ultimate proof as her brother's girlfriend had slapped her around the face. Either way, once this woman was in there she said that the stepfather loved them all, wanted them to be happy - the usual guff - Lynsey arrived home and emotional wreck. Also, the spiritualist somehow 'knows' that Lynsey is going to meet a man and be married in two years - the dead can see the future also, it seems.

Sorry, it angers me because people I care for, like yourself and my cousin, will invest money in being conned - but it is hard to say this without hurting people's feelings. I'd say the best thing to do was in your quiet moments just sit and imagine talking to your grandad - if you knew him well and loved him you'd know how he'd answer your questions, because you will know enough of his character to know how he thought.

The thing is, the most skilled (let's take Derren Brown) could still 'read' you through this - you can't bluff Derren Brown, you can't stop all of those tiny and usually imperceptible signs from being read by people like him, they are just too good at it.

The thing is though - he will tell people about their dead relatives in such an amazingly detailed way but then will admit that it is all nonsense, but yes, people still believe that their spiritualist is the real deal

I concur.

Is this as filthy as it sounds?

Hey, you're not upsetting me. I still remain sceptical, but there is a small part of me that believes that we can't scientifically prove everything that happens in this world.

What I believe in a nutshell

I mean-don't we agree with what scientists say because they say it? Isn't that just taking their word for it? I mean, we can't understand fully the tests e.t.c they do-

'If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance,
Baffle 'em with bullshit'

Man, I love the title of this thread.

It says in the subtitle. *buffs nails on shirt*

And it's a good thing techniques such as double blind testing (a laughably simple concept) means we don't have to.

Okay then, this *should* be as filthy as it sounds. And now is.

I think the very best thing about Derren Brown is that whilst he goes around debunking psychics etc to the delight of his fans many of them are only too keen to believe that many of his tricks are just as they appear and that he is possessed of an almost supernatural ability to "read people", because it's far more interesting to believe that such an extraordinary man exists than that he is mostly an extraordinary showman but also a simple conjurer not in any way above using stooges and any other trick he can to create his illusions. Even though he goes out of his way to warn them not to believe everything, they still see what they want to because he gives them a superficially plausible explanation, a bit like astrologers talking about the positions of planets and gravity and stuff.

Yes, it is brilliant how Brown tells people not to believe everything they see, but yet believe everything they see when he's involved.

We believe scientists because of the scientific method, peer review, etc.

And we don't ever taking anything as ultimate proof, only true pending further information.

I mean, we can be sure that the earth is a big ball in space and that species have evolved through evolution due to overwhelming evidence for both those facts, but that doesn't mean that technically - technically - new evidence could come along to change our understanding.

I, myself, love to entertain notions that we're all part of a multiverse and that other realities leak through from time to time, but that's just my romantic brain, nothing to do with science. Science is a method and a way of testing things, not a big block of FACTS written down in The Big Book Of Science Which Is True Now and Forever.

Or something.

I'm wittering.

I'm surprised that Homeopathy can be allowed on the NHS without first passing some sort of NICE clinical trial to prove that it actually works.

The very first episode of Penn & Teller's 'Bullshit' dealt with talking to the dead, and neatly debunked it. Anyone who thinks they've had a message from a dead relative should remember that anecdotes are not evidence, and every time a spiritualist has been tested using scientific double-blind protocols which prevent tactics such as drawing information from the interviewee and then feeding it back to them (cold reading) or finding stuff out in advance and claiming it as revelations (hot reading), they have failed miserably.

Oh...I think my brains gone today. I swear that if I don't get more than 6 hours tonight I'm going to die

I hate threads that pop up when I've been asleep longer than usual and have 3+ pages already, otherwise I would have got in here really early to agree the whole thing is the biggest load of shit ever.

The idea that *time of year* you were born and the 'alignment' of planets might in somehow fundamentally determine your personality is the biggest load of shit EVAR.

It's quasi-religious, and goes back to the basic insecurity that exists within most people that causes them to look to a higher power and/or order to gives their lives direction and purpose in lieu of INDEPEDANT THOUGHT FROM THEIR OWN SIMPLE BRAINS.

I ready my horoscope whenever I pick up the paper, to LOL at the fact that it either vaguely applies to me, or couldn't apply to me less.

Because if a chemist is bullshitting about the physical property of a new wonder material, say, he'll get found out pretty bloody quickly when it's used for something.

You can't see the difference?

Fine. Science is complicated and difficult and hard. Much better to fill the void up with ghosts and faeries and other such bullshit than actually, you know, believe someone who does know what they are talking about it and can prove it.

His "explanations" are as much part of the trick as the trick itself, I've always thought.

He's a great showman and his Russian Roulette programme was one of the best bits of TV ever.

I wanted to kill people when they dismissed it because "obviously it was a trick and he wasn't going to die" - because his skill there lay in making you feel on edge and engaged despite knowing that very, very obvious fact.

Indeed, there's this important little thing called peer review.

Ah, but they could all be in on the conspiracy to keep us non-scientists in the dark about their lies!

:rollseyes:

I don't think they'll be trying that again, not after they got caught faking the moon landings.