Be Excellent To Each Other

And, you know, party on. Dude.
It is currently Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:23

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Reply to topic  [ 454 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 16  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 14:55 
User avatar

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 29844
Chilling piece on global warming from Rolling Stone.

Here's the gist, but please read it all.

The target cap for warming the earth defined in various treaties is two degrees C, and even that will cause significant harm:

Quote:
"The target that has been talked about in international negotiations for two degrees of warming is actually a prescription for long-term disaster." At the Copenhagen summit, a spokesman for small island nations warned that many would not survive a two-degree rise: "Some countries will flat-out disappear." When delegates from developing nations were warned that two degrees would represent a "suicide pact" for drought-stricken Africa, many of them started chanting, "One degree, one Africa."


So far, we've raised temperatures by 0.8 deg C. Scientists estimate that the long-term effects of carbon we've already released will drive that as much as another 0.8 deg C.

To safely cap at 2 deg C overall, we can only release another 565 Gigatons of carbon.

Quote:
How good are these numbers? No one is insisting that they're exact, but few dispute that they're generally right. The 565-gigaton figure was derived from one of the most sophisticated computer-simulation models that have been built by climate scientists around the world over the past few decades. And the number is being further confirmed by the latest climate-simulation models currently being finalized in advance of the next report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. "Looking at them as they come in, they hardly differ at all," says Tom Wigley, an Australian climatologist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research. "There's maybe 40 models in the data set now, compared with 20 before. But so far the numbers are pretty much the same. We're just fine-tuning things. I don't think much has changed over the last decade." William Collins, a senior climate scientist at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, agrees. "I think the results of this round of simulations will be quite similar," he says. "We're not getting any free lunch from additional understanding of the climate system."


Note that there is no meaningful scientific debate about this, same as there was no meaningful scientific debate about whether tobacco was harmful or not three decades ago. Just FUD spread by the companies with deep pockets and vested interests. Why do they fight so hard? These companies with have 2,795 Gigatons worth of carbon emissions in their stockpiled resources:

Quote:
If you burned everything in the inventories of Russia's Lukoil and America's ExxonMobil, for instance, which lead the list of oil and gas companies, each would release more than 40 gigatons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.

Which is exactly why this new number, 2,795 gigatons, is such a big deal. Think of two degrees Celsius as the legal drinking limit – equivalent to the 0.08 blood-alcohol level below which you might get away with driving home. The 565 gigatons is how many drinks you could have and still stay below that limit – the six beers, say, you might consume in an evening. And the 2,795 gigatons? That's the three 12-packs the fossil-fuel industry has on the table, already opened and ready to pour.


But we can't just stop burning it:

Quote:
We have five times as much oil and coal and gas on the books as climate scientists think is safe to burn. We'd have to keep 80 percent of those reserves locked away underground to avoid that fate. Before we knew those numbers, our fate had been likely. Now, barring some massive intervention, it seems certain.

Yes, this coal and gas and oil is still technically in the soil. But it's already economically aboveground – it's figured into share prices, companies are borrowing money against it, nations are basing their budgets on the presumed returns from their patrimony. It explains why the big fossil-fuel companies have fought so hard to prevent the regulation of carbon dioxide – those reserves are their primary asset, the holding that gives their companies their value. It's why they've worked so hard these past years to figure out how to unlock the oil in Canada's tar sands, or how to drill miles beneath the sea, or how to frack the Appalachians.

If you told Exxon or Lukoil that, in order to avoid wrecking the climate, they couldn't pump out their reserves, the value of their companies would plummet. John Fullerton, a former managing director at JP Morgan who now runs the Capital Institute, calculates that at today's market value, those 2,795 gigatons of carbon emissions are worth about $27 trillion. Which is to say, if you paid attention to the scientists and kept 80 percent of it underground, you'd be writing off $20 trillion in assets. The numbers aren't exact, of course, but that carbon bubble makes the housing bubble look small by comparison. It won't necessarily burst – we might well burn all that carbon, in which case investors will do fine. But if we do, the planet will crater. You can have a healthy fossil-fuel balance sheet, or a relatively healthy planet – but now that we know the numbers, it looks like you can't have both. Do the math: 2,795 is five times 565. That's how the story ends.


Meanwhile, things get worse.

Quote:
Meanwhile the tide of numbers continues. The week after the Rio conference limped to its conclusion, Arctic sea ice hit the lowest level ever recorded for that date. Last month, on a single weekend, Tropical Storm Debby dumped more than 20 inches of rain on Florida – the earliest the season's fourth-named cyclone has ever arrived. At the same time, the largest fire in New Mexico history burned on, and the most destructive fire in Colorado's annals claimed 346 homes in Colorado Springs – breaking a record set the week before in Fort Collins. This month, scientists issued a new study concluding that global warming has dramatically increased the likelihood of severe heat and drought – days after a heat wave across the Plains and Midwest broke records that had stood since the Dust Bowl, threatening this year's harvest. You want a big number? In the course of this month, a quadrillion kernels of corn need to pollinate across the grain belt, something they can't do if temperatures remain off the charts. Just like us, our crops are adapted to the Holocene, the 11,000-year period of climatic stability we're now leaving... in the dust.


If you have kids, it is now near-certain that, barring a sci-fi technological innovation on the scale of inventing stable cold fusion, they will be growing up on a planet where droughts are common, food is in short supply, and low-lying countries and cities have simply vanished below rising sea levels. How bad can it get? Australia is the canary in the coal mine. Heat waves, droughts, floods, bush fires, and hurricanes.

Quote:
"Sadly, it's probably too late to save much of it," says Joe Romm, a leading climate advocate who served as assistant energy secretary in the Clinton administration.

This is not to say that the entire continent will sink beneath the waves anytime soon. What is likely to vanish – or be transformed beyond recognition – are many of the things we think of when we think of Australia: the barrier reef, the koalas, the sense of the country as a land of almost limitless natural resources. Instead, Australia is likely to become hotter, drier and poorer, fractured by increasing tensions over access to water, food and energy as its major cities are engulfed by the rising seas.


I'm glad I don't have kids.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 15:36 
User avatar
Sleepyhead

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 26069
Location: Kidbrooke
Any time I think about things like this, it depresses me. Future generations will look back on our time with little other than disgust.

_________________
I've got a bad feeling about this.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 15:41 
User avatar

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 29844
I particularly liked how, according to TFA, the oil and gas companies are competing over drilling rights for Arctic fossil fuel reserves that were previously unreachable but can now be drilled for the first time because the Arctic ice has shrunk so far. That's the whole thing in a microcosm.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 15:53 
User avatar
Sitting balls-back folder

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 8617
Yeah, but it's still only a theory.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:01 
SupaMod
User avatar
Est. 1978

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 62641
Location: Your Mum
I'm certainly glad I don't have Australian kids.

_________________
Grim... wrote:
I wish Craster had left some girls for the rest of us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:03 
Filthy Junkie Bitch

Joined: 17th Dec, 2008
Posts: 8004
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
I particularly liked how, according to TFA, the oil and gas companies are competing over drilling rights for Arctic fossil fuel reserves that were previously unreachable but can now be drilled for the first time because the Arctic ice has shrunk so far. That's the whole thing in a microcosm.

Imagine how much more oil we could access if we heated things up a bit more though. It is small minded thinking like yours that is holding us back.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:05 
User avatar
Skillmeister

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 24424
Location: Felelagedge Wedgebarge
I hate electricity generating windmills. They make the countryside look horrible. They're making the wind stronger too.

_________________
Washing Machine: Fine. Kettle: Needs De-scaling. Shower: Brand new. Boiler: Fine.
Archimedes Hotdog Rhubarb Niner Zero Niner.
Oh Gurney, take me in your arms and finger me like your baliset you scarred rogue.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:08 
User avatar
ugvm'er at heart...

Joined: 4th Mar, 2010
Posts: 18887
Disregarding whether we are as close to the edge as this article says, I have no idea what can be done though. Sure, the Western world may have a very slim shot at doing something about it if we all got our act together, however unlikely that is.
Who is going to stop China, India, South America and Africa though? We've shown them the shit they can have and do, how do we say "yeah we have it, but you can't"?

The only solution I can see is if a new form of safe, cheap energy production is found and given to the whole world.

_________________
http://www.trooperlooper.co.uk - Awesome MX5 blog of awesomeness.
http://www.anamateursews.co.uk - Look at me, i'm a sewing machine.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:10 
User avatar
Skillmeister

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 24424
Location: Felelagedge Wedgebarge
There was an interesting article on the BBC News website about Iron Fertilisation of the oceans.

_________________
Washing Machine: Fine. Kettle: Needs De-scaling. Shower: Brand new. Boiler: Fine.
Archimedes Hotdog Rhubarb Niner Zero Niner.
Oh Gurney, take me in your arms and finger me like your baliset you scarred rogue.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:11 
SupaMod
User avatar
Est. 1978

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 62641
Location: Your Mum
Dimrill wrote:
They're making the wind stronger too.

Who's to say they're not causing issues that we can't see, though? I mean, the idea that burning coal was going to kill everyone on the planet would have been laughable only fifty years ago (perhaps), but now, you know, this.

So what if we're fucking things up by messing with airflow and tides and such?

[edit]Also, I think they look quite cool. Silly people that think they 'ruin the horizon' are silly.

_________________
Grim... wrote:
I wish Craster had left some girls for the rest of us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:14 
SupaMod
User avatar
Est. 1978

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 62641
Location: Your Mum
Trooper wrote:
Who is going to stop China, India, South America and Africa though? We've shown them the shit they can have and do, how do we say "yeah we have it, but you can't"?

That's just an excuse to not do anything though, isn't it?

_________________
Grim... wrote:
I wish Craster had left some girls for the rest of us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:15 
User avatar
Honey Boo Boo

Joined: 28th Mar, 2008
Posts: 12328
Location: Tronna, Canandada
Don't confuse a scientific theory with the more colloquial or philosphical use.

And anyway... the current sea level is about the lowest it's ever been, ever, in geological history. Technically, the earth could be considered still in an ice age and this is an interglacial period.

You could argue that we just have the misfortune to have become self-aware at this low point and thus consider it being that low to be 'normal'.

However you look at it, we're just along for the ride on this planet. The only thing in our favour is that, if we were to stop killing each other over whose magical sky daddy is best for a moment, we could get spread our eggs across multiple baskets. The planet is going to do what it likes and while it's intelligence that could save us, our stupidity is distracting us.

_________________
Image
"I don't found you example of air conditioning vibrations very silly because the music started long time ago by punching bones into a rock."
I don't understand how up the bum can be nice for a guy. Its not nice for girls (makes you feel like your having a poo over n over once the initial nice bit goes away) -MissEdwood

Collection DeadJournal You may remember me as 'Branch-me-do'
Youtube Channel!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:15 
User avatar
Lord Humongous

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 42880
Location: The erogenous zone
Dimrill wrote:
There was an interesting article on the BBC News website about Iron Fertilisation of the oceans.

Cool!

Also: Stop flying to and from the USoffofA, Gaywood.

_________________
Flickr Behance Discogs

'Not without talent but dragged down by bass turgidity'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:16 
8-Bit Champion
User avatar
Two heads are better than one

Joined: 16th Apr, 2008
Posts: 13097
Trooper wrote:
The only solution I can see is if a new form of safe, cheap energy production is found and given to the whole world.


http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2305

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:17 
User avatar

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 29844
Trooper wrote:
Disregarding whether we are as close to the edge as this article says, I have no idea what can be done though. Sure, the Western world may have a very slim shot at doing something about it if we all got our act together, however unlikely that is.

From TFA:
Quote:
Germany is one of the only big countries that has actually tried hard to change its energy mix; on one sunny Saturday in late May, that northern-latitude nation generated nearly half its power from solar panels within its borders. That's a small miracle – and it demonstrates that we have the technology to solve our problems. But we lack the will. So far, Germany's the exception; the rule is ever more carbon.


Trooper wrote:
Who is going to stop China, India, South America and Africa though? We've shown them the shit they can have and do, how do we say "yeah we have it, but you can't"?
If Europe/America doesn't lead the world, we definitely can't ask them to stop. So we have to go first, it's a pre-condition to having any sort of chance at all; there's no choice to be made.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:21 
User avatar

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 29844
metalangel wrote:
You could argue that we just have the misfortune to have become self-aware at this low point and thus consider it being that low to be 'normal'. ... However you look at it, we're just along for the ride on this planet.
To quote just one of many, many sources to rebut that:
Quote:
America's Climate Choices: Panel on Advancing the Science of Climate Change; National Research Council (2010). Advancing the Science of Climate Change. Washington, D.C.: The National Academies Press. ISBN 0-309-14588-0. "(p1) ... there is a strong, credible body of evidence, based on multiple lines of research, documenting that climate is changing and that these changes are in large part caused by human activities. While much remains to be learned, the core phenomenon, scientific questions, and hypotheses have been examined thoroughly and have stood firm in the face of serious scientific debate and careful evaluation of alternative explanations. * * * (p21-22) Some scientific conclusions or theories have been so thoroughly examined and tested, and supported by so many independent observations and results, that their likelihood of subsequently being found to be wrong is vanishingly small. Such conclusions and theories are then regarded as settled facts. This is the case for the conclusions that the Earth system is warming and that much of this warming is very likely due to human activities.
Emphasis mine.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:22 
User avatar
ugvm'er at heart...

Joined: 4th Mar, 2010
Posts: 18887
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Trooper wrote:
Who is going to stop China, India, South America and Africa though? We've shown them the shit they can have and do, how do we say "yeah we have it, but you can't"?
If Europe/America doesn't lead the world, we definitely can't ask them to stop. So we have to go first, it's a pre-condition to having any sort of chance at all; there's no choice to be made.


I'm not saying we shouldn't lead the world and go first, we absolutely should.
I'm saying I just don't see how that will make any difference when the 2nd world countries won't give a crap. They have cheap fuel and the means to use it, how do we stop them doing that and to use something else? Like I said, the only way I can see that happening is if we offer them an alternative that is even cheaper and easier.

_________________
http://www.trooperlooper.co.uk - Awesome MX5 blog of awesomeness.
http://www.anamateursews.co.uk - Look at me, i'm a sewing machine.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:26 
User avatar
Skillmeister

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 24424
Location: Felelagedge Wedgebarge
What this thread needs is a raving right-winger to come along and say everything is fine and we should all make more money.

_________________
Washing Machine: Fine. Kettle: Needs De-scaling. Shower: Brand new. Boiler: Fine.
Archimedes Hotdog Rhubarb Niner Zero Niner.
Oh Gurney, take me in your arms and finger me like your baliset you scarred rogue.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:28 
User avatar
Honey Boo Boo

Joined: 28th Mar, 2008
Posts: 12328
Location: Tronna, Canandada
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
metalangel wrote:
You could argue that we just have the misfortune to have become self-aware at this low point and thus consider it being that low to be 'normal'. ... However you look at it, we're just along for the ride on this planet.
To quote just one of many, many sources to rebut that


That doesn't rebut the numerous ice ages this planet has encountered in the past. We might be accelerating a natural process here, and would prefer not to be giving the added input, which is understandable.

_________________
Image
"I don't found you example of air conditioning vibrations very silly because the music started long time ago by punching bones into a rock."
I don't understand how up the bum can be nice for a guy. Its not nice for girls (makes you feel like your having a poo over n over once the initial nice bit goes away) -MissEdwood

Collection DeadJournal You may remember me as 'Branch-me-do'
Youtube Channel!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:29 
User avatar
Lord Humongous

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 42880
Location: The erogenous zone
Dimrill wrote:
What this thread needs is a raving right-winger

Techno Viking?

_________________
Flickr Behance Discogs

'Not without talent but dragged down by bass turgidity'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:33 
SupaMod
User avatar
Everybodys gilf

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 45662
metalangel wrote:
That doesn't rebut the numerous ice ages this planet has encountered in the past. We might be accelerating a natural process here, and would prefer not to be giving the added input, which is understandable.


Regardless, something's happening, which is a bit shit, so we should probably do what we can to stop/slow it.

_________________
GoddessJasmine wrote:
Drunk, pulled Craster's pork, waiting for brdyime story,reading nuts. Xz


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:35 
User avatar
Sitting balls-back folder

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 8617
And when they come for your bacon?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:37 
User avatar
Honey Boo Boo

Joined: 28th Mar, 2008
Posts: 12328
Location: Tronna, Canandada
Craster wrote:
metalangel wrote:
That doesn't rebut the numerous ice ages this planet has encountered in the past. We might be accelerating a natural process here, and would prefer not to be giving the added input, which is understandable.


Regardless, something's happening, which is a bit shit, so we should probably do what we can to stop/slow it.


There's an echo in here!

_________________
Image
"I don't found you example of air conditioning vibrations very silly because the music started long time ago by punching bones into a rock."
I don't understand how up the bum can be nice for a guy. Its not nice for girls (makes you feel like your having a poo over n over once the initial nice bit goes away) -MissEdwood

Collection DeadJournal You may remember me as 'Branch-me-do'
Youtube Channel!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 16:43 
User avatar
Skillmeister

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 24424
Location: Felelagedge Wedgebarge
"Good. Then we are all agreed."
\
Image

_________________
Washing Machine: Fine. Kettle: Needs De-scaling. Shower: Brand new. Boiler: Fine.
Archimedes Hotdog Rhubarb Niner Zero Niner.
Oh Gurney, take me in your arms and finger me like your baliset you scarred rogue.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 17:20 
User avatar
Skillmeister

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 24424
Location: Felelagedge Wedgebarge
Dimrill wrote:
What this thread needs is a raving right-winger to come along and say everything is fine and we should all make more money.


Well that was quick. Osborne.

BBC Nyowz wrote:
The Chancellor has demanded that the Energy Secretary Ed Davey abandon the UK's pathway towards climate targets.

In a leaked letter, George Osborne says renewables are too expensive and suggests expanding plans for gas-fired generation.

The government's adviser, the Climate Change Committee, says this will cause the UK to miss its 2030 climate goals.

The CCC warns that with volatile gas prices, consumers could end up paying more for electricity, not less.

_________________
Washing Machine: Fine. Kettle: Needs De-scaling. Shower: Brand new. Boiler: Fine.
Archimedes Hotdog Rhubarb Niner Zero Niner.
Oh Gurney, take me in your arms and finger me like your baliset you scarred rogue.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 17:23 
SupaMod
User avatar
Everybodys gilf

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 45662
metalangel wrote:
There's an echo in here!


Ah, sorry - I read your post as saying something different.

_________________
GoddessJasmine wrote:
Drunk, pulled Craster's pork, waiting for brdyime story,reading nuts. Xz


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 19:14 
User avatar
Rude Belittler

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 4262
China is apparently ploughing lots of cash into renewables. Why wouldn't they? In twenty years they'll have worked out loads cheaper than anything using stuff out of the ground. Why can't we do that? Because the Neo-Labour party might be in charge then, and they'll take all the credit rather than the Cyber-Tories.

One advantage of a communist dictatorship: long term planning.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 19:28 
User avatar
Ticket to Ride World Champion

Joined: 18th Apr, 2008
Posts: 11440
Pundy, i think you can remove the "long-term" part of your statement.

_________________
No, it was a giant robot castle!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 20:19 
User avatar

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 29844
Pundabaya wrote:
China is apparently ploughing lots of cash into renewables.
China also has huge numbers of scientists and engineers at the highest levels of government: http://www.quora.com/Why-do-Chinese-pol ... aw-degrees


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Climate change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:21 
User avatar
Per giustizia e libertà

Joined: 23rd Nov, 2008
Posts: 497
Dimrill wrote:
What this thread needs is a raving right-winger to come along and say everything is fine and we should all make more money.

There's nothing that I dislike more than right-wingers smearing ecologists, greens and even climate change scientists as anti-capitalists and revolutionaries.

If anything, the (mainstream) green movement is essentially trying to save capitalism in the longer term. You can't sustain the global markets and hard currencies required for the basis of advanced industrial capitalism if environmental disaster leaves human civilisation on the brink of collapse.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 454 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 16  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Curiosity, Kern, Majestic-12 [Bot], Malc, Pod People, The Greys, Vogons and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search within this thread:
You are using the 'Ted' forum. Bill doesn't really exist any more. Bogus!
Want to help out with the hosting / advertising costs? That's very nice of you.
Are you on a mobile phone? Try http://beex.co.uk/m/
RIP, Owen.

Powered by a very Grim... version of phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.