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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 19:22 
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Gogmagog

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It doesn't matter how long the car took to get to 70mph, it'll require the same amount of force to stop it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 19:23 
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Rock steady gaze

Joined: 23rd Nov, 2008
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Guys, guys. I ain't no physics teacher. If you don't believe me, why do you suppose that a 155mph limited BMW M3 has much better brakes than an equally 155mph speed limited BMW 330i or whatever? They both do the same top speed and they both weigh the same, so why bother? And why do people always say upgrade brakes with any remap such as this?

I've tried to give examples like the bullet etc. but I can't think of any other way to explain it so I give up, as I have homemade gnocchi waiting. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 19:39 
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Hit it very hard

Joined: 11th May, 2008
Posts: 9891
I think it's fairly straightforward, as Cavey has already explained.

If you're driving towards the limits of a car, including its brakes, the notion that '70mph is 70mph' really isn't the point, it's how quickly you're getting to 70 or 100 or 120 or 140 or whatever, and how frequently you need to slow down from those speeds.

I honestly wouldn't want my S4 to be any more powerful than it already is, because as I found out over TT (when the mountain goes one-way, on what is already a derestricted road), once you've done a few sharp brakes down from 100mph+ and a lot of high speed braking in general, you'll be faced with some pretty significant brake fade, and that's a product of the car being able to get to 100mph in such a short period of time. Sure, my father-in-law's 1.4T Audi A1 will also get to 100mph eventually, but it'll do it far less often than my S4 will.

Case in point is the attached image which is the charge down to Windy Corner (this is towards the end of the mountain run), I was already easing off a bit as I'd noticed brake fade over the last mile or two, but I was borderline alarmed by how much the stopping power of the brakes had been degraded as I slowed down to the 70-75mph or so you want to be at to get round this corner without too much screeching.

So imagine punching another 80bhp into the equation, the car will be going even faster, more regularly, and the already strained brakes will be pushed even further, it's clearly not a sensible combination.

(The Type-R on the other hand has 350mm grooved and drilled Brembos, I'm really quite looking forward to seeing how it holds up when TT comes around next year.)

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 20:12 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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Location: West Yorkshire
That's because putting the brakes on changes the energy of the car's movement into heat (and sound, on occasion). The brake disk cannot dissipate that heat as fast as it is being generated, when braking repeatedly. So, vented discs exist. A car at 70mph still has the same value of momentum at 70mph no matter how many times it has been at 70mph before or how long it took to get there.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 20:15 
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chewbacca -future arc welder

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Taking a step back here, bigger brakes are needed because yes, more power means people drive faster. The non physics is irrelevant, people be people.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 20:27 
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Findus Fop wrote:
Jem wrote:
GazChap wrote:
I too, have just bought a car. To Jem's eternal astonishment.


Obviously the only thing I was astonished about was how long it took you.


You must be looking forward to your new 12.9 inch iPad Pro and one of those ace smart keyboard things and a swizzy iPad pen. Very kind of Gazchap to do that.


I'm fairly sure that I said I wanted sex every day for the next 20 years if he gets a BMW but I think he's forgotten that....

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 20:29 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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Location: West Yorkshire
Jem wrote:
Findus Fop wrote:
Jem wrote:
GazChap wrote:
I too, have just bought a car. To Jem's eternal astonishment.


Obviously the only thing I was astonished about was how long it took you.


You must be looking forward to your new 12.9 inch iPad Pro and one of those ace smart keyboard things and a swizzy iPad pen. Very kind of Gazchap to do that.


I'm fairly sure that I said I wanted sex every day for the next 20 years if he gets a BMW but I think he's forgotten that....


Very good for dogging, those BMWs. Lots of room and lots of glass.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 20:33 
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I'm a computery guy!

Joined: 27th Jun, 2008
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Jem wrote:
Findus Fop wrote:
Jem wrote:
GazChap wrote:
I too, have just bought a car. To Jem's eternal astonishment.


Obviously the only thing I was astonished about was how long it took you.


You must be looking forward to your new 12.9 inch iPad Pro and one of those ace smart keyboard things and a swizzy iPad pen. Very kind of Gazchap to do that.


I'm fairly sure that I said I wanted sex every day for the next 20 years if he gets a BMW but I think he's forgotten that....

8) How is that a deterrent?


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 20:37 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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DavPaz wrote:
Jem wrote:
Findus Fop wrote:
Jem wrote:
GazChap wrote:
I too, have just bought a car. To Jem's eternal astonishment.


Obviously the only thing I was astonished about was how long it took you.


You must be looking forward to your new 12.9 inch iPad Pro and one of those ace smart keyboard things and a swizzy iPad pen. Very kind of Gazchap to do that.


I'm fairly sure that I said I wanted sex every day for the next 20 years if he gets a BMW but I think he's forgotten that....

8) How is that a deterrent?


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 20:43 
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Cavey wrote:
Guys, guys. I ain't no physics teacher. If you don't believe me, why do you suppose that a 155mph limited BMW M3 has much better brakes than an equally 155mph speed limited BMW 330i or whatever? They both do the same top speed and they both weigh the same, so why bother? And why do people always say upgrade brakes with any remap such as this?

I've tried to give examples like the bullet etc. but I can't think of any other way to explain it so I give up, as I have homemade gnocchi waiting. :)

Surely bullets are slowing down as soon as they leave the barrel. How can something keep accelerating once the acceleration force is no longer being applied?


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 23:24 
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Can you dig it?

Joined: 5th Apr, 2008
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Bigger expensive brakes look better behind big expensive alloy wheels than smaller cheaper brakes.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 23:43 
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Paws for thought

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
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Cavey wrote:
Cras wrote:
I get in trouble doing this, but assuming the acceleration is no longer being applied, surely the answer is that they require identical braking force?


Okay, consider a rifle bullet that weighs 10g that's been fired (the force is removed), say one hundreth of a second after it's been fired. It's travelling, say, at only 5mph, but it's accelerating like fuck.

Are you trying to win the Craster grenade physics awward or The Mr Chris Dynamo physics award?


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:51 
SupaMod
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Est. 1978

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markg wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Guys, guys. I ain't no physics teacher. If you don't believe me, why do you suppose that a 155mph limited BMW M3 has much better brakes than an equally 155mph speed limited BMW 330i or whatever? They both do the same top speed and they both weigh the same, so why bother? And why do people always say upgrade brakes with any remap such as this?

I've tried to give examples like the bullet etc. but I can't think of any other way to explain it so I give up, as I have homemade gnocchi waiting. :)

Surely bullets are slowing down as soon as they leave the barrel. How can something keep accelerating once the acceleration force is no longer being applied?

Interesting bullet fact that's pretty obvious but a not a lot of people think through - it you shoot a bullet from a gun in a straight line (ie, not upward) and drop a bullet from your hand when you pull the trigger, they'll both hit the ground at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:13 
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Can you dig it?

Joined: 5th Apr, 2008
Posts: 3019
What if you fire the bullet out of a speeding car? Will it be different if the car is a family hatch or a powerful uber-wagon?

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:15 
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Can you dig it?

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What about if I'm doing a backflip from the roof of a speeding truck AND firing a gun at the same time.

The car truck also has magnets in the wheels. And disco gear in the back.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:20 
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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:00 
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Lord Humongous

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We're all being chased by Burtank.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:23 
Awesome
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Yes

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Grim... wrote:
markg wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Guys, guys. I ain't no physics teacher. If you don't believe me, why do you suppose that a 155mph limited BMW M3 has much better brakes than an equally 155mph speed limited BMW 330i or whatever? They both do the same top speed and they both weigh the same, so why bother? And why do people always say upgrade brakes with any remap such as this?

I've tried to give examples like the bullet etc. but I can't think of any other way to explain it so I give up, as I have homemade gnocchi waiting. :)

Surely bullets are slowing down as soon as they leave the barrel. How can something keep accelerating once the acceleration force is no longer being applied?

Interesting bullet fact that's pretty obvious but a not a lot of people think through - it you shoot a bullet from a gun in a straight line (ie, not upward) and drop a bullet from your hand when you pull the trigger, they'll both hit the ground at the same time.

Assuming a completely flat piece of ground, right?

I imagine some of those more powerful guns would be able to fire far enough that you'd have to account for the curvature of the Earth.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:28 
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Lord Humongous

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
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Big brakes are heavier so they slow the car downier quickier.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:13 
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Hit it very hard

Joined: 11th May, 2008
Posts: 9891
Got a refund of £60 on the insurance which was unexpected, it only has a few months to run and I wouldn't have thought the Type-R was much cheaper (if at all) than the S4 to insure.

The car will be ready anytime after 2pm on Friday, so I've put in for an early finish on that day so I can go vrooom vrooom vrooom and die horribly in a magnificent torque steer catastrophe.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:51 
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Lord Humongous

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
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Enjoy!

Should have kept the old battery you bought for the S4 and pop it back in :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:58 
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INFINITE POWAH

Joined: 1st Apr, 2008
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Single handedly keeping the second hand car trade alive in the Isle of Man

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:10 
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Prince of Fops

Joined: 14th May, 2009
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MrChris wrote:
Single handedly keeping the second hand car trade alive in the Isle of Man


The car dealer(s) must have a nickname for Hearthly.

The Golden Goose?


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:12 
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INFINITE POWAH

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Findus Fop wrote:
MrChris wrote:
Single handedly keeping the second hand car trade alive in the Isle of Man


The car dealer(s) must have a nickname for Hearthly.

The Golden Goose?

I'm not sure they'd be that complimentary.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:17 
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Lord Humongous

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Oilytronic

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 16:27 
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Lupine member

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
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Having better brakes is important as you're doing a lot more accelerating and braking in a short space of time than you would in a more pedestrian car, as anyone who has experienced significant brake fade can attest to. I'm not getting involved in the cod-physics discussion going on here.

In other news, anyone want to buy a Type R? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 17:08 
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:3

Joined: 25th May, 2014
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DavPaz wrote:
Jem wrote:
Findus Fop wrote:
Jem wrote:
GazChap wrote:
I too, have just bought a car. To Jem's eternal astonishment.


Obviously the only thing I was astonished about was how long it took you.


You must be looking forward to your new 12.9 inch iPad Pro and one of those ace smart keyboard things and a swizzy iPad pen. Very kind of Gazchap to do that.


I'm fairly sure that I said I wanted sex every day for the next 20 years if he gets a BMW but I think he's forgotten that....

8) How is that a deterrent?

Deterrent? You're misunderstanding the dynamic of our relationship. :DD

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 22:36 
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Lupine member

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
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Location: Nottingham
Well… it's just as fast but is much more refined than the Type R. Much more torque. Auto box makes it easy to drive. Fuel economy is slightly worse but that's to be expected as it's heavier and a 3.2 V6.

There are some electrical issues though. Like it won't lock consistently from the key fob. And the driver's side wing mirror won't fold. And the passenger's side seatbelt extender doesn't work. And there's an airbag error on the dash. And the driver's side headrest won't go up and down. Some slight vibration under braking too so could be a warped disc.

This is a stupid idea! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 22:48 
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Lord Humongous

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
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[quote="Hearthly]
Attachment:
windyo.JPG
[/quote]
You'd be better off sticking to the road.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Guzzling Money Pits
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:00 
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gooby pls

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Lonewolves wrote:
There are some electrical issues though. Like it won't lock consistently from the key fob. And the driver's side wing mirror won't fold. And the passenger's side seatbelt extender doesn't work. And there's an airbag error on the dash. And the driver's side headrest won't go up and down. Some slight vibration under braking too so could be a warped disc.

This is a stupid idea! :D

While reading this, I have quite literally only just realised why you sent me that picture yesterday. I genuinely thought you were complaining about some other knobber parking in your space.

I'm a dick.

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