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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:38 
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ComicalGnomes wrote:
When I got onto the police about my ex, they advised me to change my number but I flat out refused. Why the fuck should I change my number just because someone decides to be a fucking twat?


The behaviour of these characters are more understood than we think - my neighbour across the road has just moved again to avoid an abusive ex husband who has been stalking him. There's infatuation and then there's psychosis.

I suppose one of my exes could be classed as a stalker - we only dated for a few months and it took almost a year to get it through to her that we were no longer and item. I had everything from turning up out of the blue pretty much every day, to calling my mother and telling her that I owed her money (swell gal that she is, my Mum believed her - but I'm sure I'm not the only person on the planet with a mother ready to think the worst in any given situation - but I digress and that's another kettle of coconuts). My particular favourite was the Christmas after we'd split (August) I was in Wales at my parents and my mother blithely asked me when Helen was arriving for New Year!?!?!?!? She'd only gone and invited herself and my mother had said yes and told me on the day she was arriving! I did mention the fact to my mother who was totally unsympathetic and said I should make her feel welcome as my mother had said she could come!!!!! Remembering all this has made me stop wondering why I finally stopped talking to my mother last year! Three days of hilarity ensued with her blanking any woman I spoke to, to the point of getting between me and them and turning her back to them, to flirting outrageously with my male friends and generally acting like we were an item. Much rowing ensued.

She also turned up on Valentine's night and threw a fit because I wouldn't go out with her. She tried to divide my friends, some of them fell for it until they got to know her and realise that she was slightly too wacky, but by that time I'd moved on - I wasn't about to be told by so-called friends that this deluded obsessive was normal - she could pass for it most of the time, but she was pretty relentless.

I don't know what happened to her in the end, I think she went on a long holiday in the middle of that year, about 10 months after I had told her to sling her hook and I think she fell for some Turkish waiter's patter. I laughed hard when I found out. Fortunately I haven't seen sight nor sound of her for about 18 years now.

Actually, my ex-flatmate got a bit obsessed with me as well - but that was more amusing than anything else and fortunately Roz, (High Command) thought so too :D

I think the worse I've done is send a rather embarassing letter to an ex when I was a teenager. But I think we're all capable of getting slightly besotted with the first rush of hormones.

Having said all that, I've long thought that just about the cruelest thing you could do to someone is send them anonymous love letters or Valentine cards. The mindfuck that could cause should never be underestimated.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:41 
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Grim... wrote:
I had a joyful person from a forum I used to go to who kept ringing me, so I told the police and was told to change my number. I said that I'd probably just beat him up really badly instead as I had his address, at which point they questioned him and he stopped. Hurrah for threats of violence!


That reminds me of the apocryphal tale of the 50s something bloke who rang the police to say his house was being burgled and they informed him they didn't have enough manpower to come "right away". He called back 2 minutes later telling them not to bother as he'd shot the intruder - cue 50 policemen in various vehicles in about 2 minutes flat.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:41 
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DBSnappa wrote:
Having said all that, I've long thought that just about the cruelest thing you could do to someone is send them anonymous love letters or Valentine cards. The mindfuck that could cause should never be underestimated.


Anonymous skinned animals are probably worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:46 
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A quick google for "death threats" came up with this awesome example:

Image

I love that he was polite enough to explain "BO".

I'm a bit puzzled as to why he's informed the threatee that he has specifically *contagious* diseases, though. Or is that a very odd version of "hahah you have cooties"?

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:47 
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I've always used pay as you go. I didn't realise it was chavy. Not that I'd ever have a contract, they're for twits.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:48 
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Craster wrote:
DBSnappa wrote:
Having said all that, I've long thought that just about the cruelest thing you could do to someone is send them anonymous love letters or Valentine cards. The mindfuck that could cause should never be underestimated.


Anonymous skinned animals are probably worse.


Well yes, but that's seriously sick and probably illegal as opposed to mild psychological cruelty, which isn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:49 
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I have far more interesting things to do with my life* then investiagate mobile phone tariffs or obsess about a sodding telephone

And stalking? I add people I've never met as 'friends' on the Sinister Facebook.

*Actually, I don't


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:49 

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Ian Osborne wrote:
ComicalGnomes wrote:
Its the principle of the thing chap, you don't negotiate with terrorists.

It's not 'negotiating', it's taking precautions. We shouldn't have to queue up in airports while security checks everyone for nail scissors and envelope openers, but it's better than the alternative.


No it isn't. Scanning bags sure, I suppose. Checking us for tiny tiny sharp things, more than 100ml of anything and make me take off my fucking SHOES because some idiot tried something unsuccessfully ONCE EVER?

No. No it isn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:50 
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DBSnappa's ex sounds a lot like mine. Insane stuff.

This thread reminded me that back when I was being harassed I started to, on the advice of the police, keep records of any texts and emails I received. I also recorded a couple of the answerphone messages she left, of which I still have 4. I just listened back to them and couldn't supress a grin at sheer lunacy of what was said. She'd literally leave a message, and then ring again 5 minutes later to add some afterthoughts she'd just had. Total nutbar. Her voice sounds all craaazeeee and unstable, it's quite amusing in retrospect.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:53 
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But you can still take two liters of vodka on with you, seeing as you bought it at the duty free past the security gate. I mean, there isn't any kind of mischief you could do with quantities of flammable liquid in glass bottles, is there?

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:54 
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Dudley wrote:
Ian Osborne wrote:
ComicalGnomes wrote:
Its the principle of the thing chap, you don't negotiate with terrorists.

It's not 'negotiating', it's taking precautions. We shouldn't have to queue up in airports while security checks everyone for nail scissors and envelope openers, but it's better than the alternative.


No it isn't. Scanning bags sure, I suppose. Checking us for tiny tiny sharp things, more than 100ml of anything and make me take off my fucking SHOES because some idiot tried something unsuccessfully ONCE EVER?

No. No it isn't.

They should have one specific flight a day that doesn't do any security checks, and then the terrorists and the angry people can all travel together.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:55 
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AceAceBaby wrote:
there isn't any kind of mischief you could do with quantities of flammable liquid in glass bottles, is there?


Or, indeed, in the queue for the security check.

I used to like airports. Now I find them tediously irritating. Although the Eurostar terminal at Brussels is trying to match Heathrow for making travel miserable - quite an achievement for a railway station.


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:55 
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ComicalGnomes wrote:
DBSnappa's ex sounds a lot like mine. Insane stuff.

This thread reminded me that back when I was being harassed I started to, on the advice of the police, keep records of any texts and emails I received. I also recorded a couple of the answerphone messages she left, of which I still have 4. I just listened back to them and couldn't supress a grin at sheer lunacy of what was said. She'd literally leave a message, and then ring again 5 minutes later to add some afterthoughts she'd just had. Total nutbar. Her voice sounds all craaazeeee and unstable, it's quite amusing in retrospect.

Upload? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:56 
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Mr Chris wrote:
Upload? :)

I was thinking about it, but sadly the content is a little too personal to share with the internet at large. ;(

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:56 

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Mr Chris wrote:
Dudley wrote:
Ian Osborne wrote:
ComicalGnomes wrote:
Its the principle of the thing chap, you don't negotiate with terrorists.

It's not 'negotiating', it's taking precautions. We shouldn't have to queue up in airports while security checks everyone for nail scissors and envelope openers, but it's better than the alternative.


No it isn't. Scanning bags sure, I suppose. Checking us for tiny tiny sharp things, more than 100ml of anything and make me take off my fucking SHOES because some idiot tried something unsuccessfully ONCE EVER?

No. No it isn't.

They should have one specific flight a day that doesn't do any security checks, and then the terrorists and the angry people can all travel together.


While the rest of you are forced to actually strip naked.

Don't laugh, I reckon it's maybe 5 years away, if someone actually tries to exploit the myriad of security holes still existing (or indeed is smart enough to get anyone other than a middle eastern gentleman to do an attack since they're the only ones who ever get searched)


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:57 
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Mr Chris wrote:
They should have one specific flight a day that doesn't do any security checks, and then the terrorists and the angry people can all travel together.


One idea I had was making security an extra, like on Ryanair. You want to stripped naked so there's no chance of a bomb on you? Pay £1000 to Securo-flight airlines. Cheapo Ryanair passengers would run the risk of blowingup, which might improve the quality of their flight. Ahahaha.


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:57 
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ComicalGnomes wrote:
Mr Chris wrote:
Upload? :)

I was thinking about it, but sadly the content is a little too personal to share with the internet at large. ;(

Ah-ha! So her accusations about *** ******* ** ******** * *** are true then?

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:58 
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Mr Chris wrote:
A quick google for "death threats" came up with this awesome example:

Image

I love that he was polite enough to explain "BO".

I'm a bit puzzled as to why he's informed the threatee that he has specifically *contagious* diseases, though. Or is that a very odd version of "hahah you have cooties"?


Is that Jack "Book him Danno" Lord from Hawaii Five-0?

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:00 
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Bahahaha, not at all. In one of them she was replying to my accusation that she was a lying cheating nutter. :) She goes on to say she's told her 'boyfriend' and family about it, and then later in the message repeats herself but forgets about the boyfriend the second time.

This is the same girl that waited until I went for a piss to quickly jump on my computer and read my msn logs with other girls on my list, and use anything contained therein to go mental at me for a few days. Fun fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:16 
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ComicalGnomes - You do make me laugh, the anger that spills out of your messages is almost scary!! I do like it!


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:23 
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Ange wrote:
The first was when I was 16 and I'd just started going on the messageboards of a local night club. We all started meeting up in a certain part of the night club every Saturday and one day this 30-something bloke was there. He was terrifyingly ugly, a complete geek and rather scary, and guess what? He took a shine to me.
But you're still with myop now, so at least there is a happy ending.


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:24 
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TheVision wrote:
ComicalGnomes - You do make me laugh, the anger that spills out of your messages is almost scary!! I do like it!

And yet I'm quite friendly when you get to know me.

The Gaywood Massive wrote:
But you're still with myop now, so at least there is a happy ending.

Or IS it? Dun dun dun!

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:25 
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GAYWOOD WILL EXPERIENCE IMMINENT DEATH.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:26 
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richardgaywood wrote:
Ange wrote:
The first was when I was 16 and I'd just started going on the messageboards of a local night club. We all started meeting up in a certain part of the night club every Saturday and one day this 30-something bloke was there. He was terrifyingly ugly, a complete geek and rather scary, and guess what? He took a shine to me.
But you're still with myop now, so at least there is a happy ending.

Bwahahaha 3/π

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:31 
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Lucky for you Myps she has a thing for ugly geeks.

She'll be in seventh heaven at the Beteo meet up.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:40 
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Zardoz wrote:
Lucky for you Myps she has a thing for ugly geeks.

Ange's fetish wear - white nylon shirts with biros in the top pocket.

Ange's sex toys - Star Wars figurines.

Ange's idea of talking dirty - memorising and reciting all the Star Trek scripts.

I bet she's on Xbox L!ve too...

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:42 
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Ian Osborne wrote:
Have you spoken to the police, Ange? :(


Nah, they've never actually tried to hurt my physically so there's nothing the police would do. I assume this is the case as I have a friend who's ex boyfriend was in prison for attempting to murder a former girlfriend, then my friend kept receiving death threats from him. Apparently there's nothing they can do until the person harms you, which is usually too late.

Anyway, I forgot to mention that I saw the lezzers at Gay Pride in Nottingham a few years ago. They clocked me and followed me round snogging in front of me all day. It was actually really funny because they'd obviously used to same naff bright red hair dye, just with one of them having short spikey hair and the other haing long hair. Oooh live up to your stereotype!


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:44 
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I believe you can get a civil injunction (Chris?) against such people. The police recommended it if her antics kept up but I can't remember now what it entails.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:45 
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Ian Osborne wrote:
Zardoz wrote:
Lucky for you Myps she has a thing for ugly geeks.

Ange's fetish wear - white nylon shirts with biros in the top pocket.

Ange's sex toys - Star Wars figurines.

Ange's idea of talking dirty - memorising and reciting all the Star Trek scripts.

I bet she's on Xbox L!ve too...


Ick.

I am on Xbox Live but I fucking hate the thing. That's right, I hate games consols, mainly because of the fiance stealing tendancies. I'm gonna get lynched now aren't I?


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:48 
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Ange wrote:
I'm gonna get lynched now aren't I?


Not by me you're not. I just can't seem to have any interest in games. Though they've never stolen a fiancé from me.


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:52 
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ComicalGnomes wrote:
I believe you can get a civil injunction (Chris?) against such people. The police recommended it if her antics kept up but I can't remember now what it entails.


Yeah, too much effort really and it's their word against mine. I can't really be arsed with dragging the whole thing up, that's why I don't want anything to do with them. It's not really affecting me anymore TBH, it just means I'm looking over my shoulder if I'm in a gay bar, which isn't very often these days!


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:53 
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nynfortoo wrote:
Ange wrote:
I'm gonna get lynched now aren't I?


Not by me you're not. I just can't seem to have any interest in games. Though they've never stolen a fiancé from me.


Hmm I think I meant fiance with another e. I are thick.


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:57 
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ComicalGnomes wrote:
I believe you can get a civil injunction (Chris?) against such people. The police recommended it if her antics kept up but I can't remember now what it entails.

When I was back in Ludlow, a friend of mine did this to keep her ex at bay. He got sent to prison for breaking the injunction.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 13:24 
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Speaking of lesbians: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/7530322.stm :DD


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 13:36 
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Quote:
In a statement, they added: "Publicly linking our home address with our sexuality could have ruined our lives."

Hahaha, but that photo on BBC news all about it won't matter!

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 13:38 
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Grim... wrote:
Quote:
In a statement, they added: "Publicly linking our home address with our sexuality could have ruined our lives."

Hahaha, but that photo on BBC news all about it won't matter!

That photo isn't their home address.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 13:40 
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Yes, but the article gives you a nice head-start in finding what their home address is.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 13:40 
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Ian Osborne wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Quote:
In a statement, they added: "Publicly linking our home address with our sexuality could have ruined our lives."

Hahaha, but that photo on BBC news all about it won't matter!

That photo isn't their home address.


Well no, but it looked to me like they were implying that they were closet lesbians, and that they didn't want to be outed. Do they think there's going to be queues of horny men outside turned on by the local lesbians? Have they seen themselves?

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 13:46 
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Craster wrote:
Have they seen themselves?


Oh, come on - they're not half bad.

Image

I wonder if they have home videos.

The image address is a little odd... I wonder if someone at BBC Online went the same way I did just then.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 13:49 
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Craster wrote:
Well no, but it looked to me like they were implying that they were closet lesbians, and that they didn't want to be outed. Do they think there's going to be queues of horny men outside turned on by the local lesbians? Have they seen themselves?

Or that out or not, they didn't want homophobes throwing bricks through their window, or passers-by in the street pointing at them.

At the end of the day, there's just no reason to make a reference to their sexuality on an advert for selling their house. Why on earth should a potential purchaser need to know? The comment was a gross invasion of their privacy.

And regarding their looks, they're both quite attractive.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 13:52 
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Ian Osborne wrote:
Craster wrote:
Well no, but it looked to me like they were implying that they were closet lesbians, and that they didn't want to be outed. Do they think there's going to be queues of horny men outside turned on by the local lesbians? Have they seen themselves?

Or that out or not, they didn't want homophobes throwing bricks through their window, or passers-by in the street pointing at them.

At the end of the day, there's just no reason to make a reference to their sexuality on an advert for selling their house. Why on earth should a potential purchaser need to know?


So that people looking round the house know that there may be fun things to find whilst they're looking round?

But yeah, it was out of order sticking "lesbians!!!111!!!" in an ad for the house - there's no way it could conceivably be relevant. Unless some religion has a thing about living under a roof that once sheltered members of the Lesbytarian faith

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 13:53 
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Part physicist, part WARLORD

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It was out of order, but utterly hilarious when you're as disconnected from the incident as I am.


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 13:54 
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Sleepyhead

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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Location: Kidbrooke
I've not really had any stalkers of note, though the feyonce promises that were I ever to break up she'd stalk me and ruin my life, which is nice.

My sister has had a few, but I like my friend's story.

She went out with a bloke for a while, but dumped him because he was boring. Yet he kept on ringing and inviting her to do stuff, and eventually she relented and went out with him to something, with the intention of ending it. The calls kept on coming, despite her making it very clear that they weren't going out any more and to please stop calling. He invited her out again, and she said 'yes' one last time, saying that it would definitely be over this time, and she would leave him in no doubt.

Speaking to her the day after I asked if he'd taken it well. She responded that she hadn't ranted at him about it, as she was finding this new scenario interesting, and that he wasn't as boring any more. He continued to completely ignore any protestations that she didn't wantt o go out with him, and eventually they were just going out again. And now, four years on, they're getting married in three weeks!

So, stalkers of the world, it could happen to you!!!

:D

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 13:59 
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Commander-in-Cheese

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Ian Osborne wrote:
Or that out or not, they didn't want homophobes throwing bricks through their window, or passers-by in the street pointing at them.


Surely the photo is more likely to clue-in passers by than their address? And two middle-aged women who aren't related living together is very uncommon outside lesbian relationships, so it'll hardly be a shock to their neighbours (who, again, would be more likely to see the photo on BBC news than the for sale advert on RightMove).

Of course, there's no reason for it to be in the advert, but I agree with Grim... that agreeing to have the story published with their photos attached is inviting a much bigger invasion of privacy than that for sale advert.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 14:08 
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Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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Craster wrote:
two middle-aged women who aren't related living together is very uncommon outside lesbian relationships, so it'll hardly be a shock to their neighbours (who, again, would be more likely to see the photo on BBC news than the for sale advert on RightMove).

Their immediate neighbours, yes, but not the whole town.

Quote:
Of course, there's no reason for it to be in the advert, but I agree with Grim... that agreeing to have the story published with their photos attached is inviting a much bigger invasion of privacy than that for sale advert.

That they agreed to have their photo in the story is a matter of choice. They weren't complaining about being outed, they were complaining about having their sexuality associated with their home address. Do you really find it so difficult to imagine a homophobe smashing their window and scrawlling 'faggots' across their garage after spotting the ad?

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 14:10 
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nynfortoo wrote:
It was out of order, but utterly hilarious when you're as disconnected from the incident as I am.


It is obviously appalling, but the idea of the word "Lesbians" appearing at the bottom of the ad keeps making me laugh.


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 15:05 
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making out to faces of death

Joined: 1st Apr, 2008
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Ange wrote:
nynfortoo wrote:
Ange wrote:
I'm gonna get lynched now aren't I?


Not by me you're not. I just can't seem to have any interest in games. Though they've never stolen a fiancé from me.


Hmm I think I meant fiance with another e. I are thick.


Only if you really are a lesbian. :hat:

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:27 
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Honey Boo Boo

Joined: 28th Mar, 2008
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Ian Osborne wrote:
passers-by in the street pointing at them.


And what? Shouting, 'NOSH'?

As for attractiveness, the one on the left, would. On the right, orange.

My house was previous owned by two lesbians - young ones. They left the house in a complete state, filled with junk and cat hair. It didn't say this (or LESBIANS!!!1111) in the advert, but the neighbours were more than happy to tell us how they were a bit 'odd'.


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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:08 
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Peculiar, yet lovely

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 7046
I just followed a strange, drunken woman into town.

To make sure she was okay, see. She asked me for help, catching me on the way home from work, and I gave her a rough guide to getting to the town centre (she didn't know where she was, see, and I didn't know where the place she's going to is), and tried to encourage her to talk as she was obviously upset and worried and lost and needed to sleep, calm down and have a friendly ear - she said she wasn't okay, but "won't be okay when I get home anyway..." and nearly cried. I didn't really press the issue as I should have though, so she wandered off, thanking profusely before I could get my wits together and get her talking.

So, a minute later I doubled back and followed her round the corner, fully expecting her to be on a wall, crying, so I could explain that I have a spare flat literally across the road and here are the keys, and if you don't want to talk I understand but you're welcome to have a drink and sleep there and I here's a fiver for food from the corner shop when it opens.

STALKY STALKY.

I think she got a bus back roughly towards where she said she lived, so hurrah! Sort of. Hope she's not going home to some abusive twat or other, though.

That's my exciting adventure for the day. Also, I tried to rescue a lost dog, but it turned out to not be lost and its owner was a cretinous ingrate, so I'm taking a detour from my usual route home on monday morning to let the air out of her tyres. Bastard woman. Do you know how many people would stop to help a genuinely lost dog like that? At that time of morning, that dog could get five miles away before someone tried to help. And that detour might have been the difference between my catching up with that woman, which might have meant making a new friend and a neat little anecdote for both of us. Bah.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalking
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:24 
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Posts: 32619
sinister agent wrote:
Do you know how many people would stop to help a genuinely lost dog like that?
Me. I've taken lost dogs in half a dozen times in the last few years, and traced the owners about 50% of the time. The rest ended up at the council pound (who pass them on to a local animal shelter who don't put dogs down, I checked).


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