Be Excellent To Each Other

I've just seen some film debate going on but didn't want to derail the thread. This is a genuine conversation after seeing Jurrasic Park 3 with an ex of mine who did film studies (probably not quite word for word but the gist is there):

Me: So why the hell would they build an atrium to store dinosaurs that would fall apart after three years. I am pretty sure if they left the Blackpool tower alone for three years it wouldn't fall to bits like that.
Ex: It was to show the helplessness of the people involved. The falling apart of the atrium was a metaphor for their situation.
Me: What... really that was the intention of that in the film?
Ex: I thought it was pretty obvious. Their gradually worsening plight was mirrored by their surroundings.
Me: Err..

I have seen a few directors commentaries where they mention a small thing that I would never have noticed that apparently is very important to the plot and to be honest they don't change the film for me.

So is it just me who doesn't get these, apparently obvious, subtexts (and I don't class Jurassic Park 3 as a deep film) or is anyone else bamboozled by what I see as obvious plot holes but are in fact the directors way of getting a message across. Any examples that will enlighten me are welcome.

I think a lot of the time, with film and novels alike, people like to read too much into them. Then, the director might pick up on something an "academic" has said, and claim it as his/her intention all along. Sure, I believe some authors and directors use metaphors quite deliberately, but a lot of the time it's just people with too much time reading too much into a movie about dinosaurs going on a rampage.

Oh, and Donnie Darko.

This was what I was thinking. If you get too hooked up into something you enjoy you can go around over analysing (bumming) all sorts of things. I am not joking when I say she applied the same logic to "The Toxic Avenger", I think it was called. This was, apparently, a metaphor for societies view on the physically deformed.

I thought it was a silly horror movie.

There can be lots of metaphors in films, but frequently ones that aren't intentional, or particularily good. I don't count a metaphor a metaphor unless its really fucking good. Like the ones in Bladerunner, or I Know Where I'm Going, The Red Shoes or Black Narcissus. ("More Pressburger eh, Pete? Gngh." - ed.)

Anyway, back to packing for me.

The 'atrium' metaphor (meta4 would be a great name for a four-piece band) sounds like an excuse to me.

Everyone interprets things differently, unless I've heard the creators intentions I take critics/analisers ideas with a pinch of salt.

You can apply a layer of bullshit to everything.

Disclaimer: I got a Third in my Film Studies (esque) degree.

Some films definitely have intentional deeper meanings to them, and it's not always films you expect. Surely everyone knows that the original Dawn Of The Dead is a metaphor on the growth of consumer culture? Romero was basically saying that we as a culture like to shop so much that even in death, given the choice, the first place we'd head to is the local mall.

But here, we're talking about Jurassic Park III. I'm fairly certain that the rundown atrium has less to do with being a metaphor for the helpness of the characters and more to do with the director wanting us to see how the facility had been ruined by years of unchecked dino attacks as well as to heighten the suspense by making it so that the scenery itself was almost as much of a danger to those characters as the aforementioned dinos.

People really do read too much into things.

I possible one of the most observent viewers of metaphors in film history.
I'll spot every metaphor in a film no problem.
Hell my palette is so developed that I can tell the best metaphors a mile off.
I could list about 20 of my favourite metaphors in film right now.



Oh wait. I thought you were talking about breasts.

I like watching zombies, 'sploshuns, boobs, spaceships and cars. You can stuff your metafers up your fudgey.

I had a friend who claimed ( if I remember correctly ) that Die Hard was infact a modern retelling of something like Dante's Inferno, or Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress, or something else equally daft. He was a bit of a dick though.

The Big Lebowski is no doubt a metaphor for loads of stuff, but I'm too stupid to understand it, despite noticing a lot of the references.

If someone wants to explain it to me that would be cool, thanks.

Despite my flippant post earlier. My friend once sent me an extract from a book about film, and it was an entire chapter devoted to why Back to the future 1 was one of the best films ever made, and went into detail about how prefectly it was scripted and crafted.

Despite having loved BTTF as a child I laughed at how silly and pompous it was to begin with, and then I read it and I was absolutely convinced. I'll try and find it if I can... But basically it outlined how lean they made the film and how everything resonated with the future and past. A lot of it I had realised myself but a lot of it had completely passed me by.

Like I had never noticed that the novelty clocks in the opening shot of the film basically outline the entire plot.

I read one of my friend's film studies books once, which said that the rising sun in some SF movie I don't remember "obviously represented a mandela". That's some of the most desperate reaching I've seen, given that it's a sun, so of course it looks like a sun, and it rising is important at that point in the story. It is not mandela-esque in any way. Argh.

This sort of thing is what made me give up considering taking English at university, because my teacher said she was very impressed by "the lurching rhythm of my poetry mirroring the slow decay of society it describes", and I realised I couldn't keep pretending for four years.

Watching the three BTTF films back-to-back gave me a completely new appreciation for how bloody brilliantly put together they are, and how much they echo and / or foreshadow each other.

Once you start looking for symbols you often find you can't stop, no matter how trite they may be.

It's good to disucss these 'deeper' meanings though as you might find you get a perspective on the film/novel you might never have noticed before. Whether you accept that interpretation or not is up to you.

I think that's the thing though, done well the more subtle elements should pass you by on one level, but they're there and add to the film. It's then interesting to read how much effort the director has put in to creating them. Rather like the difference between incidental music that sits in the background doing its job and that which stomps all over every scene. For me that's part of what makes a great director as opposed to the sort of pompous arseholes who make films which spend the entire time screaming out for you to 'get' it.

Or lack of effort in the case of the Running Man where you see adverts for show earlier in the film showing clips of stuff that happens later.

I remember reading some guff about The Big Lebowski which claimed that The Dude and Maude were brother and sister. The justification for this came from Mr Lebowski saying "do what your parents did, get a job!" which they read as him claiming parental responsibility for The Dude. Rubbish.

It's about some folks the Coens knew in real life who they thought were funny According to everything I've ever heard, including them saying so. Maybe unusually.

Now, Barton Fink on the other hand....................!.......

Oh, and O Brother, Where Art Thou? is the Odyssey. Which I didn't realise until I think Dimrill pointed out to me - obvious reference being John Goodman playing a cyclops.

Yeah, I heard that. I didn't really get any of the references ( never having read the Odessey ) apart from the Siren women making them fall asleep. I only got that because I remember Tony Robinson telling it years and years ago on TV.

And the Oracle at the beginning on the railroad.

"He's a suitor!"

I don't think pompous is the right word. Bombastic, maybe. My favourite one for this is Oliver Stone, who has no comprehension of subtlety at all.

EDIT - This is about "O Brother! Where Art Thou?"

That's one of my all time favourite movies. The references are littered throughout it like candy.

George Clooney is awesome in it.

As are the songs.

..or truth

Try to resist calling Myp "Dapper Dan" go on. I can't.

I don't want 'Fop'! I'm a 'Dapper Dan' man!

zzzzzzMy hair!zzzzzz

I read somewhere that TBL was effectively a remake of The Big Sleep or another of Chandler's novels

I vaguely recall Miller's Crossing being loaded with metaphors, but I haven't watched it for years so can't recall.

However, some films are loaded with very very clever metaphors by genius design - every intricate detail has been worked through and thought through to the nth degree before an inch of footage is shot. This is rare though, I believe.

As for Jurassic Park III, I think it's a hugely under-rated film. It's lean and taut and a very good action flick within the JP franchise and I suspect that in that environ, that atrium would look that trashed after 1 year, let alone 3. However, decay and degradation and how fast nature overcomes man's constructions and conceits is a literal and cinematic cliche and I suspect that it may have been an aside in meetings with the Art Department, but as an actual metaphor? Who knows. It could just as easily been "I want an accurate representation of how fucked this place would look after 3 years of neglect"

I agree with the songs bit. Indeed, it's one of two films I have the soundtrack of. (The other is Singles, mainly because it had otherwise unavailable Pearl Jam stuff on it)

Mr Dave - this is quite probably a really silly question but, have you heard Pearl Jam's MTV Unplugged set? They did 'State of Love & Trust' (as I dimly recall it being called) off Singles, amongst others. From before Vs was released. I don't think they've ever released it officially though.

Aye, I have the video of it too, amazing performance it is. But yes, I had to aqcuire it in bootleg form. Annoying really.
State of love and trust is, indeed, one of the songs off the singles soundtrack and is awesome (and now also available on various live cds/dvds as well as the rearviewmirror best of album) alongside Breath, which is one of their best songs. (And was written before Eddie joined the band)

And now you've gone and made me put on the MTV unplugged videos. Bah, that's a couple of hours gone.

Mentioning the Coen brothers, the beautiful thing which makes me laugh at the many idiots who ridiculously over-analyse every bloody film on those stupid iMDB film comment forums, is that they generally just did stuff 'cos it looked cool. I had a friend who was doing his PhD on the Coens films' and talked to them many times. A classic is the scene where the hat floats slowly to the ground in Millers Crossing, which so many people have "interpreted" to mean various things, but the Coens openly admit was just a random shot they thought of on the spot, with no deeper meaning.

Films which have revolved around a huge metaphor, like Apocalypse Now or Blade Runner, do it perfectly though, but (echoing jonarob) atrocities like Donnie Darko - AAARRRGHGHGHHHfuckofffuckofffuckoff!

I will not have that - Donnie Darko is an excellent film. But then, hey! I'm selling my 360 and keeping the PS3, so my opinion counts for shit.

That's probably my fave song still that, off Vs. Actually, I think Vs. is probably my fave album of theirs - I was going to say Vitalogy, because I love that too (one of the first albums I ever got, which is probably a bit part of why), but I think Vs. just pips it. Still good. Daughter is still heart-breaking.

On the subject of films and metaphors - anyone ever seen I Heart Huckabees? Anyone here understand it?


Shut the fuck up, Donny.

I really like Donnie Darko too, though I think this has more to do with its excellent cast, tight direction, clever script, strange atmosphere and top soundtrack than the plot. On paper the plot (or event) which I did manage to work out on my own is pretty bobbins, but all of the above make it work and seem quite epic and darkly lovely.

So yes, I quite like it.

See also: English Literature Degrees.

Agreed. The soundtrack works so, so well. The opening scene with Donnie waking up riding down the hill to 'The Killing Moon' is just so atmospheric, I was hooked from the start. Add in the great use of 'Head over Heels' and (at the time the non-ubiquitous) 'Mad World', and the music worked perfectly. It was well acted, had a tight script and just, well... worked.

The time travel and cause and effect nature of it all is naturally confusing, and at times seems flawed, but for me the atmosphere really carried it through. Especially if you consider it to have a happy ending, which I do.

Gah freaky mirrors scary film trailer alert!
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/37310
[edit]Don't watch if, say, you don't want to see Amy Smart tearing her own face in half. Oh yes.

The watery time dicks in Donnie Darko were cool. If I make a film, it will have those... and the dancing bag from American Beauty.

Oooh! There's loads!

Obviously the quest to get back home to face down the suitor/suitors. The ironic twist being that whilst Penelope in the book clings to Odyseuss being alive when everyone else thinks he's dead, Penny pretends he's dead so she can raise her kids right without his bad influence, and willingly looks for a suitor.

Not only do you have the Sirens, but it also combo's Circe with it, as Tuturro gets turned into a toad.

Pappy O'Daniel's first name is Menelaus, and his rival's first name is Homer.

To win back his wife he has to sneak in to the dance hall in disguise, which is what Odyseuss did to ambush the suitors in his hall.

The pardon can be seen as the wiping clean of memories and grievences that Zeus does under Hera's persuasion after the slaughter of the suitors.

Further irony in that it is a flood that saves Clooney when in the Odyssey Poseidon keeps trying to knock the hero off.

Odysseus is described as "the man of many sorrows" in the book, which is referenced in 'A Man of Constant Sorrow' song.

Not to mention the main character's name.

..and, errrr, it saying something like "based on Homers' Odyssey" in the titles at the beginning of the film...

This sounds like a prime example of a film succeeding in spite of, not because of, its director; I think the opening song was meant to be "Never Tear Us Apart" by Inxs and while I haven't seen the director's cut, I've heard that it's flabby and over-explains the plot.

I certainly heard talk that the director's commentary was him bumbling utter bollocks and sounding like a twat for the duration.

Watched this last night. It is fantastic as you say, but I'm not really able to describe why.

http://www.xkcd.com/451/

I would also add pretty much ALL art criticism/appreciation

That's the thing - is the clever, "deep meaning" stuff in there intentionally? With some films it is, but often not. Take the ending of two-lane:

It's a good ending, and seems suitable. But if I try to write down why it'll just sound pretentious