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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:45 
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RuySan wrote:
a) Rapp was allegedly harassed when he was 14, which is pretty nasty and reason enough to believe this situation caused him so much stress. Now there are some other people, who were grown man, to claim to have PTSD from crouch grabbing Spacey.

What's the cut-off point for a grown man? Sixteen years old?

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:46 
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Mimi wrote:
I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.


Ok, maybe I wasn't sensitive enough. I'm sorry. Maybe the guy had some rough upbringing and crouch grabbing triggers something, i dunno. Each one of us has our own demons. I had a boss who was a bully which gave me much more headaches than any crotch grabbing, so yes, but it's not like I'm asking for his career to be finished, like some people are doing with dustin hoffman for something shitty he said more than 30 years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:48 
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Mimi wrote:
I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.

Absolutely this. Unwanted sexual contact can be traumatic no matter who the perpetrator is.

I think some men imagine a sexy lady fondling them and wonder what the fuss is about, but if you have someone going beyond the boundaries of your personal space in any way it can be very frightening, especially if that person is in a position of power.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:48 
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RuySan wrote:
Mimi wrote:
I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.


Ok, maybe I wasn't sensitive enough. I'm sorry. Maybe the guy had some rough upbringing and crouch grabbing triggers something, i dunno. Each one of us has our own demons. I had a boss who was a bully which gave me much more headaches than any crotch grabbing, so yes, but it's not like I'm asking for his career to be finished, like some people are doing with dustin hoffman for something shitty he said more than 30 years ago.

You sound like a sociopath, sorry. You need to work on your empathy.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:51 
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Grim... wrote:
RuySan wrote:
a) Rapp was allegedly harassed when he was 14, which is pretty nasty and reason enough to believe this situation caused him so much stress. Now there are some other people, who were grown man, to claim to have PTSD from crouch grabbing Spacey.

What's the cut-off point for a grown man? Sixteen years old?


I can understand someone as powerful as Weinstein abusing his situation, and victims be afraid to speak out and have their careers ruined, by why did guys over 20 or 30 allowed Spacey to have this kind of behaviour for years? Maybe Spacey's gaydar was broken.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:51 
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It's interesting, actually. RuySan, you're Portuguese, yes? I get the impression that Portugal still goes in for the whole "machismo" thing. Where men are expected to be MEN and not have feelings and such. Correct me if I'm wrong, naturally!


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:52 
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Lonewolves wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Mimi wrote:
I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.


Ok, maybe I wasn't sensitive enough. I'm sorry. Maybe the guy had some rough upbringing and crouch grabbing triggers something, i dunno. Each one of us has our own demons. I had a boss who was a bully which gave me much more headaches than any crotch grabbing, so yes, but it's not like I'm asking for his career to be finished, like some people are doing with dustin hoffman for something shitty he said more than 30 years ago.

You sound like a sociopath, sorry. You need to work on your empathy.


Seriously, that's a really shitty thing to say. You don't know me.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:53 
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RuySan wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Mimi wrote:
I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.


Ok, maybe I wasn't sensitive enough. I'm sorry. Maybe the guy had some rough upbringing and crouch grabbing triggers something, i dunno. Each one of us has our own demons. I had a boss who was a bully which gave me much more headaches than any crotch grabbing, so yes, but it's not like I'm asking for his career to be finished, like some people are doing with dustin hoffman for something shitty he said more than 30 years ago.

You sound like a sociopath, sorry. You need to work on your empathy.


Seriously, that's a really shitty thing to say. You don't know me.

Then I apologise. It must be something lost in translation.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:04 
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RuySan wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Mimi wrote:
I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.


Ok, maybe I wasn't sensitive enough. I'm sorry. Maybe the guy had some rough upbringing and crouch grabbing triggers something, i dunno. Each one of us has our own demons. I had a boss who was a bully which gave me much more headaches than any crotch grabbing, so yes, but it's not like I'm asking for his career to be finished, like some people are doing with dustin hoffman for something shitty he said more than 30 years ago.

You sound like a sociopath, sorry. You need to work on your empathy.


Seriously, that's a really shitty thing to say. You don't know me.

But you also don’t know these victims of sexual assault. You say you’ve had similar experiences and gotten over it. We’ve hurled all manner of abuse and labels at Myp, and he’s gotten over it, so it’s kind of like saying ‘if he can get over it then you should similarly grow a spine’.

Ok, it’s a different thing, but you clearly didn’t like being labelled a sociopath on a public forum, completely understandably. But there are many, perhaps most people that would say that such a passing remark pales into insignificance with having your private space invaded and the most private parts of your body unsolicitously groped and grabbed by another human being, of your acquaintance or otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:06 
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DavPaz wrote:
It's interesting, actually. RuySan, you're Portuguese, yes? I get the impression that Portugal still goes in for the whole "machismo" thing. Where men are expected to be MEN and not have feelings and such. Correct me if I'm wrong, naturally!


Well, that could have been true on my parents generation. I only saw my father crying when his mother died and still it was only for a little while. But from my experience, that's not so much true. Both my father and father in law cook and do house chores regularly, and so do i, and most of my friends.

Portugal was the 3rd most peaceful country in the world according to the UN (only Iceland and New Zealand were higher), and that takes into account any type of crime, including sex offences. I think you're wrong. Brazil is more like that though, and generally people have that stereotype about Brazilians beating their wives.

The thing is, we came out from a brutal dictatorship not long ago, so we still have more important thing to worry about than PC culture. Still today I read an article from a respected female left winged journalism claiming that Anglo-Saxon Political Correctness is infecting our society. And before you doubt my credentials, i'm a militant from a socialist political party (claimed by the right to be an extremist left party) and have actually worked and rallied many years for equal rights for women and minorities. What i hate is today's slacktivists getting worried about anything.

Anyway, I digress. But i'm not a sociopath, but it's not the first time someone said something like that, so why should i expect better from this forum?


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:10 
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Being called a sociopath ain’t the worst thing in the world. I can think of much more insulting names that one human can call another.

Myp is all of them. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:11 
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Satsuma wrote:
Being called a sociopath ain’t the worst thing in the world. I can think of much more insulting names that one human can call another.

Myp is all of them. ;)

It's ok, my spine was fully formed a long time ago. Your words cannot hurt me (only crouch grabbing whatever that is)


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:12 
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Lonewolves wrote:
crouch grabbing


Is that like a stealth kill?


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:15 
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That's fascinating, Ruysan. I confess that I know very little about Portuguese politics. That whole Anglo Saxon political correctness thing is stunning. Is it seen to radiate from us?


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:22 
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RuySan wrote:
But i'm not a sociopath, but it's not the first time someone said something like that, so why should i expect better from this forum?

I said you seem like a sociopath - subtle difference. I am not a medical professional so cannot diagnose you. But obviously my mere words have upset you. Can you now perhaps see that different things upset different people and you were wrong to dismiss people who have suffered trauma as needing to grow a spine?

Also way to make a generalisation on the whole forum here by one member's words.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:24 
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But you seem to be asking for an understanding that your society, way of life, priorities should be different from that of the ‘Anglo-Saxon Western PC culture’ that is ‘infecting’ your way of life, but it’s perhaps one of the tenets of a more understanding (‘PC’, if you will) way of seeing things that asks people to step back and say ‘I understand your way of life may have different values...’. Otherwise you might write whole nations off as savages for their differences. Unfortunately sexual assault is slightly different in that speaking up is still taboo... here in the UK as much as many other places, and you, whether from UK, Portugal, anywhere else should perhaps not make a call on the worthiness of a victim for the abuse they have suffered, or the point at which, or age at which, somethjng becomes inappropriate, affecting, life changing... Portuguese victims of sexual harassment need space and support to say ‘this happened to me and is wrong’ as much as anybody else on the planet if they need to. You, with your experiences, say you have no need, and that’s good that you have moved on unaffected, but war, famine, oppressive regimes, natural disaster... whatever ‘big’ and nationally awful things that might happen to a nation may not eclipse the awful things that might affect people on a personal level, but rather add on to it. An extreme example, but somebody raped during an occupation of their homeland does not get over the rape because their country is suffering on a large scale.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:24 
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DavPaz wrote:
That's fascinating, Ruysan. I confess that I know very little about Portuguese politics. That whole Anglo Saxon political correctness thing is stunning. Is it seen to radiate from us?


Both the Anglo Saxon PC and the Anglo Saxon alt-right/gaming racism/misogynist (that is a word for that in our language but i forgot, and it's not Gamergate) that is "infecting" our youth. I couldn't believe the crap that came out of the mouth of my wife's 18 old cousin. You know, the whole "feminist-hating", "trump-loving" deal. Not even the most despicable guys in my teenage years could have opinions like that, and I was always an optimist and though each generation would be better than the one that preceded it. But apparently online games broke evolution.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:26 
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Grim... wrote:
RuySan wrote:
a) Rapp was allegedly harassed when he was 14, which is pretty nasty and reason enough to believe this situation caused him so much stress. Now there are some other people, who were grown man, to claim to have PTSD from crouch grabbing Spacey.

What's the cut-off point for a grown man? Sixteen years old?

Yes, that’s when the final vertebrae is formed and your spine is fully grown. That’s why younger teens slouch when they walk. That’s also why kids have that growth spurt at 16.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:32 
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Mimi wrote:
But you seem to be asking for an understanding that your society, way of life, priorities should be different from that of the ‘Anglo-Saxon Western PC culture’ that is ‘infecting’ your way of life, but it’s perhaps one of the tenets of a more understanding (‘PC’, if you will) way of seeing things that asks people to step back and say ‘I understand your way of life may have different values...’. Otherwise you might write whole nations off as savages for their differences. Unfortunately sexual assault is slightly different in that speaking up is still taboo... here in the UK as much as many other places, and you, whether from UK, Portugal, anywhere else should perhaps not make a call on the worthiness of a victim for the abuse they have suffered, or the point at which, or age at which, somethjng becomes inappropriate, affecting, life changing... Portuguese victims of sexual harassment need space and support to say ‘this happened to me and is wrong’ as much as anybody else on the planet if they need to. You, with your experiences, say you have no need, and that’s good that you have moved on unaffected, but war, famine, oppressive regimes, natural disaster... whatever ‘big’ and nationally awful things that might happen to a nation may not eclipse the awful things that might affect people on a personal level, but rather add on to it. An extreme example, but somebody raped during an occupation of their homeland does not get over the rape because their country is suffering on a large scale.


Of course not, because rape is rape and rape is terrible. But rape isn't what this is about.

I'm complaining, but for some reason i still read The Guardian when it comes to world news. Don't know why I would read something so skewed. The last week there was an article about how a judge here in portugal pardoned a wife beater because the wife was being unfaithful. They painted Portugal as a land of savages that don't respect women. They "forgot" to point out two things:

a) This judge pardoned a women last year who shot her husband (attempted homicide, in this case) because he was being unfaithful. So his deal was against adultery and not against women.

b) There was rightly an huge uproar by everyone, and the judge was stripped of his powers and put on trial (which is still going on and it's still one of the hottest topics in the news these days).

The Guardian wrote like this is "business as usual here". But well, I like the comments on The Guardian's football news, so that's why i still go there.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:38 
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RuySan wrote:
Of course not, because rape is rape and rape is terrible. But rape isn't what this is about.

I suspect Portugal has a different definition of rape to the UK.

At least I hope so, because the UK definition is stupid.

[edit] Not sure about the wording, but it's "Rape only happens if a penis is inserted into someone"

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:40 
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Grim... wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Of course not, because rape is rape and rape is terrible. But rape isn't what this is about.

I suspect Portugal has a different definition of rape to the UK.

At least I hope so, because the UK definition is stupid.

[edit] Not sure about the wording, but it's "Rape only happens if a penis is inserted into someone"


I'm pretty sure grabbing a crotch and saying something mysoginistic isn't rape both here and in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_English_law

EDIT: Sorry, i misread your post. I just proved your idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:43 
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Ruysan... hypothetical question as you do not seem to feel that your experiences have affected you personally, but do you have a partner? I’m going to say a female partner, so that the machismo aspect is negated. If not a partner then sister or mother

What if you found out that for the past year their boss had been routinely intimidating them by grabbing them between the legs? How would you feel?

What then if they had been worried to speak out for a year because they’d be worried about the reaction, thinking people might say that they were making a fuss, that it wasn’t as important or a ‘real’ issue such as rape? Or were worried that people would call them spineless for making a fuss.

What if it only happened once? Would that make it different?

What if it was, instead of a sister or mother, your brother or father?

I’m only asking as I’m genuinely confused where a difference on culture lies between your feelings and, for example, mine, or Myp’s, or whoever’s. I’m having trouble understanding if it’s a difference in the way we see the importance of whether it happens to a man or woman, the ‘degree’ of the assault (and I’m using the example of grabbing the crotch as you had mentioned that)... or age, whether it’s a one off or repeated. I don’t know. I’m trying to understand your point of view (understand, not agree with) but can’t.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:48 
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Grim... wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Of course not, because rape is rape and rape is terrible. But rape isn't what this is about.

I suspect Portugal has a different definition of rape to the UK.

At least I hope so, because the UK definition is stupid.

[edit] Not sure about the wording, but it's "Rape only happens if a penis is inserted into someone"


Quote:
(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,

(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and

(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

(3) Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.

(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.


EDIT: there’s also the near identical offence of Assault by Penetration which carries the same sentence and doesn’t require a penis (natch).

EDIT 2: have a link in your face http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape ... _soa_1956/


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:51 
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Mimi, I understand your point, and yes, I have both a wife and a daughter.

But I think there's quite a difference between:

a) A man grabbing a women at work

b) A man grabbing another man in a bar

Because in the first case there's a relationship of power and one of those persons is abusing it. That difference might come from some sort of hierarchy, or just because one of them is a man and another is a women. This recalls something Rachel McAdams character said in true detective when someone asked why she was so obssessed over training martial arts and knife fighting ("because almost any man, at any time, can force himself on me"). We can go around beating the bush but that's a big difference, and someone will probably cries that i'm being discriminatory, but man can simply force a women in a way that a women can't force herself on a man (most of the times that his). It's simple mass/strenght/biology whatever you want to call it.

I remember when a man grabbed me in a bar, I was quite drunk, and so i have this problem that i'm overly friendly when i'm so, so i just told i'm not interested (and problem said something silly like "but it's ok, and i have gay friends" or something). There wasn't any unbalance in power.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:54 
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RuySan wrote:
Grim... wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Of course not, because rape is rape and rape is terrible. But rape isn't what this is about.

I suspect Portugal has a different definition of rape to the UK.

At least I hope so, because the UK definition is stupid.

[edit] Not sure about the wording, but it's "Rape only happens if a penis is inserted into someone"


I'm pretty sure grabbing a crotch and saying something mysoginistic isn't rape both here and in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_English_law

EDIT: Sorry, i misread your post. I just proved your idea.


Maybe not rape but it is sexual assault.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:01 
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Oh my fucking god.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:05 
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Jem wrote:
Oh my fucking god.

:S

I know. Back away from the thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:09 
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Thank you, Ruysan. I think it’s important to try to understand, even if we can’t agree.

I am aware that I’m kind of bothering you a bit now, but for the sake of my own curiosity, I can understand that for you an imbalance of power seems like it makes things worse (which is why abuses against children or people unable to fend for themselves anger us so very much), so in the situation by the bar I assume you see yourself and the man that groped you as equally powerful. So, if it were not him that did it, but... say... a male boss at your work. Would that be different? What if it were a female boss abusing her position to grope you?

By power, is it the power of position or physical power?

Either way, can you see that some people, including men, might not be as powerful physically, socially, mentally able to deal with it in the way that you have and might need support, and that it’s detrimental to feeling able to seek support if you tell people they should just grow a spine and get over it?

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:53 
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Yes, I understand your post and I apologised before for being insensitive, as the man that was groped by kevin spacey could have been triggered by something that happened to him before or something, I don't know.

But as for your question. Yes, both me and the man were "equally powerful" in your words.

As for if the man was my Boss:

As I told earlier I had a boss that harrassed and threatened me constantly. He never groped me because it probably wasn't his thing. He was worse than any of the bosses on the Horrible Bosses movie. I could write a book about of all the things he did. Just to exemplify a situation with an unbalance of power.

The problem was that i found him to be thoroughly incompetent and dumb who could only solve problems by brute force and bully everyone. In a meeting with the whole team he started with his usual shit. I started contradicting him and making him a fool of himself, over and over. The meeting was the whole day. He started losing temper and it was such a shitshow. When the meeting was over one of my colleagues said "Thank you for saying that that we all wanted to say, he was asking for it". I said "Shame it had to be me that i'm still under contact instead of you, you coward piece of shit" (i guess i was still with the adrenaline high).

Next day I was fired. I'm not telling you this to say that how brave I was. What I think is that actors are so desperate to have careers that are afraid of speaking up like i was. I was just a Cleaning Machinery salesman. But it was a well paid job and Although i'm a highly skilled engineer with lots of experience, I had to be a salesmen because i was caught up in the global crisis. I ended up being unemployed for a year after that. Seriously, I just needed to get this of my chest. Maybe this is why I'm so resentful. These people are afraid to speak up for fear of losing their jobs when they live in wealthy countries with low unemployment rates when I had to lose my job in a terrible time for speaking up and now earn only 1000€/month working as an engineer which leaves pretty much 0€ at the end of the month.

Thank you for this psychoanalysis session. I used to do this with my dog when she was alive, seems like i need another dog.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:54 
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RuySan wrote:
He was worse than any of the bosses on the Horrible Bosses movie.

Full circle!

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