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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 20:39 
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Well said, Flis.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 20:47 
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flis wrote:
People easily forget that the victims of abuse have nothing to gain and everything to lose by making accusations like this. And the cases where someone is making something up for their moment in the spotlight is dwarfed by instances where it gets minimised into nothingness.

The thing that really gets me, is the indignation of some men, like "Well I can't risk going into a room on my own with a woman in case she makes something up about me, or gets offended if I touch her arm!" Women, for all time, have been second guessing every lone interaction with the vast majority of men they encounter. This whole "can I trust this person" is not new to us, and it is only your privilege up until this point in time - now that some 'typically' male behaviour is being questioned - that brings those trust issues to the front and centre of your world. I'm not saying all men a rapists or abusers, or that men can't imagine what it's like but a lot of men do fail to see the extent of the automatic, birthright privilege that comes from being a man and that does stop them believing things could be any other way.

Ask your wives if they've ever been in a situation with a man that made them nervous. Then ask yourself if you've ever genuinely been concerned a woman might take it upon herself to make up a sexual assault after being alone in a room with you, and then think about how closely that fear is tied specifically to large scale stories of sexual abuse by men in power in the media. Women don't need to read about a serial rapist/groper/flasher on the loose to before they worry about being assaulted or cat-called or otherwise reduced to a sex object, it's a default state for many, in many situations.

A lot of the attitudes that need to change aren't intentionally hurtful or sexist, it's stuff that is deeply ingrained within society as a whole - men and women, straight or otherwise. That person engaged in casual encounters, they were dressed suggestively, they didn't speak out soon enough, they went out alone at night, they knew his reputation when they went in the room with him, they should have tried to avoid the situation, they shouldn't have been so drunk.

I know of a police officer who genuinely thought women who refuse to give evidence or press charges after reporting a sexual assault should be charged with wasting police time. Where do you even begin with changing that kind of institutionalised attitude.

Thank you for putting it so much better than I could, mainly because you can draw on your experiences to explain it better.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 22:08 
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I'm not sure about what Corey Feldman is doing (for those that don't know, he says he has a list of names of people that abused him and other young actors, but he'll only release them as part of a documentary he needs $10,000,000 to create.

Meanwhile, at least one of the people on his list is "still powerful in Hollywood".

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 22:15 
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Yeah that's kind of sad all round.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 22:37 
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Grim... wrote:
I'm not sure about what Corey Feldman is doing (for those that don't know, he says he has a list of names of people that abused him and other young actors, but he'll only release them as part of a documentary he needs $10,000,000 to create.

Meanwhile, at least one of the people on his list is "still powerful in Hollywood".


Oh, is that what he’s said? I wasn’t aware of the bit where he said he needed money to release the name. That’s not going to end well for anyone. If anyone else knows who the would-be accused is and has evidence or experience of the same from that person you can only hope that they go to the police and report this in the right way.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:04 
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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:22 
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That seems…unnecessary.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:37 
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It seems greedy. If he was desperate to tell his story, he wouldn't be asking for £10m. And isn't he just feeding the machine that hurt him?


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:36 
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Maybe. Or maybe he wants to tell his story and retire from the cuisines that hurt him. It’s hard to know. I don’t think it’s tge right thing to do, but it’s not my life that’s been ruined.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:42 
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Mimi wrote:
Maybe. Or maybe he wants to tell his story and retire from the cuisines that hurt him.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 13:39 
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Mimi wrote:
:luv:

Agree with all of that, Flis, and appreciate being able to read it from someone who has put it so well.

:this:

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 18:52 
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DavPaz wrote:
Kevin Spacey's career is going to ruined by an unsubstantiated 30 year old accusation.

That seems... unfair.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-41829484

Lot more people making statements\complaints


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 19:17 
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Well then.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 19:18 
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I keep writing a reply to this thread (in addition to my agreement with flis) and deleting it... stupid jumbled mess of thoughts. Bear with me.

One of the things that stopped me from reporting my main 'attacker' for so long was the fear that I would destroy his life (even though he destroyed mine). And when I finally reported him - albeit to a social worker rather than more 'formal' channels - he was ostracised from family and friends, a path that eventually led him to take his own life.

The two events may not be directly connected, and in my head I know that there was a lot of things that happened between those two things, but I will never not see that connection; something I will have to live with for the rest of my life.

The victims that have come forward over the past few weeks or so will have potentially spent a long, long time analysing the consequences of coming forward. They will be dealing with HUGE, complicated feelings of shame, fear, confusion etc on top of the obvious inconvenience of being in the spotlight and having to share this not just with e.g. a police officer but the whole world all at once...

I believe them. I believe them and I cry for them. And I'd rather believe 100 fake stories if it means supporting just one legit victim than stand around proselytising cynicism and doubt, which ultimately makes genuine sufferers stay quiet.

(I hope that makes sense... I have had a shit day and a laaaaarge glass of wine so feeling fragile; be gentle :))

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 19:42 
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Even if those 100 people who were falsely accused killed themselves because of the hounding they unfairly received?

I mean I get what you're saying, and false reports are very rare indeed, but they do happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:41 
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You get what I'm saying, so you're twisting my words to come up with an unlikely ending because...?

I read your response last night and was genuinely stumped as to how to respond. Felt like a kick in the stomach.

Believing a victim when they come forward doesn't have some pre-requisite perp-lynch mode attached; saying I believe you isn't a statement of intent towards the attacker. So - if your bizarre and unlikely scenario were to play out - I would be really fucking sad for the 100 who decided to kill themselves after being falsely accused, and would of course feel like shit (as I do when anyone dies let alone by suicide), but I wouldn't accept responsibility or feel guilty purely because I believed the alleged victim. Which I think is what you're asking? Who knows.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:22 
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Pundy is saying that there are false reports of assaults (and every other type of crime, I've no doubt), and that they can probably end badly for the person accused.

Saying you believe the victim automatically because they're the victim (as opposed to being willing to believe the victim, which I guess you probably meant) very much is a statement of intent against the person(s) they're reporting - until proven otherwise, that person is guilty of the crime as reported.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:33 
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I generally believe the accuser, but that has to be balanced with everyone having a right to defend themselves against accusations of a crime. If it's talk about legal action, there needs to be a fair trial for someone to be convicted.

The same burdens for a conviction aren't required for your own perception of a situation.

This does get a little muddied with trial by the court of public opinion, half-admissions, and potentially unreliable witnesses (even with honourable intentions).


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:42 
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I think the problem is partly in that ‘innocent until proven guilty’ has two ends that run parellel and yet can’t really both exist together.

So, the alleged attacker is innocent until proven guilty. Ok. We have to believe he is innocent until such time as he is proven guilty.

But also the alleged victim. We need to believe that they are also innocent (of potentially bringing about false accusations) unless proven guilty of doing so.

So, can we believe that the alleged perpatrator is innocent if we also believe the alleged victim is? We can believe the victims because the criminal law system is set up to believe the alleged perpatrator. Where things get skewed is when the media tell, or hint, spin, etc at which side to believe.

And of course, a not guilty verdict does not mean that the alleged victim was lying. It does not mean that the alleged attacker was telling the truth. It’s a lack of evidence, so the system is weighted towards the burden of proof. That’s true in all crimes, but especially rape and sexual assault, as they are crimes so difficult to come forward and report, evidence is hard to find, collect, substantiate. Fear, shame... so many things stop victims coming forwards, and when they do they have everything to lose, as a not guilty verdict can, sometimes, be read as guilt on the part of the accuser, of falsely reporting, of exaggerating, of ‘making a fuss’.

So, as the system believes in innocence until guilt is proven, I think we can legitimately believe the victims, and that’s without even all of the absolute courage, risk and strength that a victim has to find, with everything to lose, when naming an attacker in a legal system so weighted against guilty convictions.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:48 
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Grim... wrote:
Pundy is saying that there are false reports of assaults (and every other type of crime, I've no doubt), and that they can probably end badly for the person accused.

Saying you believe the victim automatically because they're the victim (as opposed to being willing to believe the victim, which I guess you probably meant) very much is a statement of intent against the person(s) they're reporting - until proven otherwise, that person is guilty of the crime as reported.

You're conflating a personal belief of the victim with the actual legal side of a trial etc. A lot of the time the victims don't end up pressing charges. If someone came to me and told me they had been raped, I would believe them. I wouldn't demand proof. The legal side of it I am not commenting on at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:50 
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Lonewolves wrote:
You're conflating a personal belief of the victim with the actual legal side of a trial etc. A lot of the time the victims don't end up pressing charges. If someone came to me and told me they had been raped, I would believe them. I wouldn't demand proof. The legal side of it I am not commenting on at all.

Indeed, I wasn't talking about someone talking to me personally.

Carry on!

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:59 
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Everyone's take on it is influenced heavily by the very human trait of identifying first off with someone who is most like them in some way. So it's fairly normal for a man when considering these scenarios to first imagine himself in the situation of someone falsely accused of something awful by some fucking nutter and losing everything as a result, his wife, his children etc. It's a horrifying thing to contemplate and even if you know it's vanishingly unlikely to happen it's hard not to make your mind go there. In much the same way as if you have kids and you hear about some random abduction, the first thing you often do is consider how you might feel if that were your child, you spin out scenarios in your mind where it happens and feel some degree of terror. Then usually later you might calm yourself and realise that almost certainly it never will be. Before I had a daughter I would try to imagine how that might feel but that gut-wrenching feeling wasn't there. So I can't honestly say that I know how women might feel reading about this stuff. I can and do try to imagine but really I'm clueless.

I dunno I'm rambling a bit but in reality what I actually do is decide what I think every time something happens. In all these recent high-profile cases it hasn't really crossed my mind to not believe the victims simply because so many people seem to be saying the same thing. But if I just read about a case where it was totally one person's word against another then I would still tend to believe the victim but there might be more than a sliver of doubt which might cause me to not mentally want to throw that person under a bus without knowing a bit more.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:23 
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markg wrote:
Everyone's take on it is influenced heavily by the very human trait of identifying first off with someone who is most like them in some way. So it's fairly normal for a man when considering these scenarios to first imagine himself in the situation of someone falsely accused of something awful by some fucking nutter and losing everything as a result, his wife, his children etc. It's a horrifying thing to contemplate and even if you know it's vanishingly unlikely to happen it's hard not to make your mind go there. In much the same way as if you have kids and you hear about some random abduction, the first thing you often do is consider how you might feel if that were your child, you spin out scenarios in your mind where it happens and feel some degree of terror. Then usually later you might calm yourself and realise that almost certainly it never will be. Before I had a daughter I would try to imagine how that might feel but that gut-wrenching feeling wasn't there. So I can't honestly say that I know how women might feel reading about this stuff. I can and do try to imagine but really I'm clueless.

I dunno I'm rambling a bit but in reality what I actually do is decide what I think every time something happens. In all these recent high-profile cases it hasn't really crossed my mind to not believe the victims simply because so many people seem to be saying the same thing. But if I just read about a case where it was totally one person's word against another then I would still tend to believe the victim but there might be more than a sliver of doubt which might cause me to not mentally want to throw that person under a bus without knowing a bit more.


What you say here is perfectly understandable and reasonable, it's a measured response and you put thought into it. Not everyone does. There are always situations where people's black and white need to have, and express, an opinion are not measured or reasonable. A lot of the background to the formation of a belief or opinion is societal, and I think that is the issue in these and many other cases.

Going back to my police officer acquaintance, I was beyond shocked at their opinion and pointed out the infinite reasons someone may not choose to follow up a complaint of sexual assault or harassment. Their solicitor may have advised them not to because of lack of proof, a mutual friend may have suggested the accused has too much to lose, and was it really that bad, it's not like he held a gun to your head or beat you.

Asfish has a colleague who thought him asking a question would be misconstrued by the woman with the nail polish on. Her imagined response gave him cause to be offened in response. It is society and the behaviour of men generally that resulted in that situation, not her potential upset. It's nobodies right to say, do or ask someone whatever they want, whatever the situation. If you don't know that person well enough for a question not to be weird, don't ask. That's not on her.

Teenage girls looking like they're 18 when they're 13 and getting men shouting to them in the street "I didn't know she was a kid - look how she's dressed". That's not her fault, why are you blatantly ogling females in the street? Don't do it, and then you don't have to defend yourself with some false, misplaced offence at how a child is dressed.

It is mens behaviour that has lead to encounters being awkward or uncomfortable. Women should not have to be on guard. And men should not find offense in her actions but in the actions of all the men before him.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:46 
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flis wrote:
markg wrote:
Everyone's take on it is influenced heavily by the very human trait of identifying first off with someone who is most like them in some way. So it's fairly normal for a man when considering these scenarios to first imagine himself in the situation of someone falsely accused of something awful by some fucking nutter and losing everything as a result, his wife, his children etc. It's a horrifying thing to contemplate and even if you know it's vanishingly unlikely to happen it's hard not to make your mind go there. In much the same way as if you have kids and you hear about some random abduction, the first thing you often do is consider how you might feel if that were your child, you spin out scenarios in your mind where it happens and feel some degree of terror. Then usually later you might calm yourself and realise that almost certainly it never will be. Before I had a daughter I would try to imagine how that might feel but that gut-wrenching feeling wasn't there. So I can't honestly say that I know how women might feel reading about this stuff. I can and do try to imagine but really I'm clueless.

I dunno I'm rambling a bit but in reality what I actually do is decide what I think every time something happens. In all these recent high-profile cases it hasn't really crossed my mind to not believe the victims simply because so many people seem to be saying the same thing. But if I just read about a case where it was totally one person's word against another then I would still tend to believe the victim but there might be more than a sliver of doubt which might cause me to not mentally want to throw that person under a bus without knowing a bit more.


What you say here is perfectly understandable and reasonable, it's a measured response and you put thought into it. Not everyone does. There are always situations where people's black and white need to have, and express, an opinion are not measured or reasonable. A lot of the background to the formation of a belief or opinion is societal, and I think that is the issue in these and many other cases.

Going back to my police officer acquaintance, I was beyond shocked at their opinion and pointed out the infinite reasons someone may not choose to follow up a complaint of sexual assault or harassment. Their solicitor may have advised them not to because of lack of proof, a mutual friend may have suggested the accused has too much to lose, and was it really that bad, it's not like he held a gun to your head or beat you.

Asfish has a colleague who thought him asking a question would be misconstrued by the woman with the nail polish on. Her imagined response gave him cause to be offened in response. It is society and the behaviour of men generally that resulted in that situation, not her potential upset. It's nobodies right to say, do or ask someone whatever they want, whatever the situation. If you don't know that person well enough for a question not to be weird, don't ask. That's not on her.

Teenage girls looking like they're 18 when they're 13 and getting men shouting to them in the street "I didn't know she was a kid - look how she's dressed". That's not her fault, why are you blatantly ogling females in the street? Don't do it, and then you don't have to defend yourself with some false, misplaced offence at how a child is dressed.

It is mens behaviour that has lead to encounters being awkward or uncomfortable. Women should not have to be on guard. And men should not find offense in her actions but in the actions of all the men before him.


:this:

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:51 
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Flis wins this thread


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:58 
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I know it looks extreme or that I hate men but I really don't. I just wish there was a way to make some more understanding and empathic. It is hard to read and think you'd be anything like that, or hard to think that a totally innocent comment would make someone feel bad or get defensive. Yes, it's sad we're not part of a world where people can talk to each other or smile at each other or say hello to a stranger without the risk of someone thinking you're creepy. Seriously though, where do people think that came from?

So much stuff should be innocent, or should be taken as meant in that moment but when you're on the receiving end of regular behaviour that is not okay, it's difficult to view every instance in isolation. It's hard to smile every time someone says something that they believe is complimentary but makes you want to curl up and die.

Our whole lives we've been taught to minimise the risk to ourselves by avoiding behaviour that would provoke a reaction from men. Why can't men just not react? Don't look at us the change things, change the behaviour and attitudes of your sons, male friends, coworkers. Don't accept it. Don't think just because you can't see it happen, it doesn't happen. Repeat that it isn't acceptable to and maybe in another 50 years, that will become typical.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 13:01 
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This is so true(: this bit ”And men should not find offense in her actions but in the actions of all the men before him”) . I was driving my car the other day and I clocked some woman on the street was looking very pretty, probably just walking home from work, and from the comfort of my car I could see at least 3 men on the street actively straining their necks to look at her. I had my sunglasses on so I had no worry about just watching them watching her but it was just shameful behaviour. They didn’t even attempt to hide what they were doing; it was just brazen rubber necking. And one bloke was just on his own. Just walking along and thought it was acceptable to stop dead in his tracks and make someone feel uncomfortable. He didn’t give two shits that there was a row of stationary traffic around him probably looking at him being a creep. I don’t know what’s happened in his life that makes him think this was even the slightest bit acceptable.

If that was me walking home from work with some random fucks leering at me I’d feel all kinds of awkward and I’m a mess of a person at the best of times.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:36 
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Ok, just my 2 cents on this whole situation:

a) Rapp was allegedly harassed when he was 14, which is pretty nasty and reason enough to believe this situation caused him so much stress. Now there are some other people, who were grown man, to claim to have PTSD from crouch grabbing Spacey. Jesus, just grow a spine. Listening to these people is minoring the suffering of real victims, like some women weinstein raped or minors who were harassed. I also was groped, more than once, by both man and women, and it's not like i'm losing sleep over it. Obviously, i was already a grown men.

b) Saying you believe victims because "they have nothing to gain from lying and exposing themselves", is assuming that everybody in the world is sane and reasonable. Seriously? Isn't that being a bit naive?
"The innocent until guilty" principle is one of the most important things in a state of law. Never underestimate the importance of it. My sister is a lawyer, and one of the first things they learn is something like "better to have 100 criminals free than a convicted innocent". Or something like that. I should get back to work. Please don't hate me.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:41 
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I think you are completely, completely wrong. I do not think having someone grope your genitals is something that you should need to ‘grow a spine’ over at any age. You may be able to get over it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else can.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:44 
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I also agree that in a court of law ‘innocent until proven guilty’ is absolutely fundamental, which is why we have burden of proof.

As individuals we also are able to look at the innocence until proven otherwise of the victim. He/she is innocent, very likely extremely affected by the incident, and deserves our support and belief in his/her innocence and need for help.

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