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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 14:54 
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I haven’t seen anyone coming close to equating a glance with groping, or touching someone’s knee with rape, personally, but I genuinely think it’s just that, finally, a whole swaythe of society finally has a voice and platform to say ‘yes, I’ve had horrible experiences too... this is what happened to me... everyone needs to know that this isn’t ok, and it needs to STOP.’ That it was never ok, never ‘accepted behaviour’ by the people subjected to it, but that until now they’ve felt powerless to do anything about it.

So, when someone stands up and says their sexual assault has affected them, then another person says that a person inappropriately touching them or making lewd comments/sending undiluted sexual messages has affected their lives, I think we need to be careful to not make them feel like they have a lesser right to speak up and say that it is wrong and needs to stop, otherwise we’re in danger of being complicit in sort of saying ‘shhh... it’s not that bad, others have it worse...’ and the problem goes on being buried and there will be those that in turn think it’s acceptable to carry on acting that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 14:56 
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Mimi wrote:
sending undiluted sexual messages

Double concentrated - read half as much :D

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 14:57 
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Grim... wrote:
Mimi wrote:
sending undiluted sexual messages

Double concentrated - read half as much :D

:P

I’ve been trying really hard to read through my typing of late. My cold has turned the corner into ‘flu this afternoon and my head is all fuzzy :D

I think this is a good moment for me to move to cherrier threads.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 14:58 
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MrChris wrote:
I was talking to Ruth about this the other day. I’m inherently uncomfortable with some people’s approach of putting everything on the same spectrum, from unwanted flirtation to rape, as if there is any remote moral equivalence there, or as if one is a gateway drug to the other. I can't provide links off the top of my head but the tenor of some of the commentary has been along those lines.

And the vague moral panic that’s going on at the moment is in some respects a little bit odd. Whilst Fallon is an objectionable twat, if all he’s really done is put his hand on Julia Hartley-Brewer’s knee umpteen years ago, and she doesn’t care about it, I’m not sure why this is a “fall on your sword” issue or why there is any line being drawn between that and Harvey Weinstein. I was also disappointed that the BBC, in the context of all of this, had that barrister on who made that bloke’s life a misery after he messaged her on LinkedIn saying he thought she had a stunning photo.

Yes, there’s undoubtedly an issue with men and sexual assault, and with men in positions of power using that power in an inappropriate way (#notallmen) but conflating all of this into one big ball of anger about everything that is verging on a score settling witch hunt in areas (god knows both main UK political parties seem to be doing this) seems counterproductive.

However, whilst I think at the bottom end of that spectrum, the unwanted flirtation in a bar, the looking at a pretty lady or whatever, you’re arguably, as an individual, not doing anything “wrong” per se, it’s worth bearing in mind you may be the third or fourth person to try to chat that woman up in the bar that evening when all she wants to do is the Times crossword, or she may have been stared at ALL DAY by rando weird men. It’s perfectly reasonable for her to then be fairly pissed off and let you know that. But then, as with much in life, a little bit of empathy for other people goes a long way.


To only address one point, the Fallon thing is very much not about one hand on JHB’s knee. More has already come out, and more will follow.

What irks me is how there are lots of nods and “Yeah, he was always a bit dodgy”. Had it with Saville, now every fucker is saying it about Spacey and Family Guy jokes about him in this way years ago.

The annoyance is not at any victims or even those who were arguably complicit but didn’t feel able to speak out, just in general.

I remember once a boss of mine was very ‘handsy’ with a colleague in our team. He was drunk and it was late and all that usual shit. Made it very uncomfortable for the colleague in question, and for the rest of us. We tried to engineer it so it stopped, but even in that situation none of us felt comfortable in saying anything (all people in this story are male, which might be a factor, I dunno). Nobody wanted a scene, but even raising it with the person in question seemed impossible as they controlled our destiny.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 15:00 
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I think a lot of people are equating a flirty glance with groping, but pretty much on the reactionary media side - the whole "politically correct nonsense, I can't even smile at someone without being labelled an abuser" crap.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 15:07 
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Mimi wrote:
I haven’t seen anyone coming close to equating a glance with groping, or touching someone’s knee with rape, personally, but I genuinely think it’s just that, finally, a whole swaythe of society finally has a voice and platform to say ‘yes, I’ve had horrible experiences too... this is what happened to me... everyone needs to know that this isn’t ok, and it needs to STOP.’ That it was never ok, never ‘accepted behaviour’ by the people subjected to it, but that until now they’ve felt powerless to do anything about it.

So, when someone stands up and says their sexual assault has affected them, then another person says that a person inappropriately touching them or making lewd comments/sending undiluted sexual messages has affected their lives, I think we need to be careful to not make them feel like they have a lesser right to speak up and say that it is wrong and needs to stop, otherwise we’re in danger of being complicit in sort of saying ‘shhh... it’s not that bad, others have it worse...’ and the problem goes on being buried and there will be those that in turn think it’s acceptable to carry on acting that way.

I don't think I disagree with any of that as such - everyone is and should be of course free to talk about their experiences and how those experiences have affected them. I'm not suggesting for a minute that people shouldn't do so or that because someone has "had it worse" you shouldn't say anything.

What's perhaps slightly concerning is that there is some elision going on between the two things - and we have people being forced to resign because of minor things that happened a long time ago, seemingly as some sort of score settling, on the basis of "Well, look, it's all part of this culture that's exemplified by Weinstein".

And the "better 100 innocent men get falsely accused" attitude that's crept in here is somewhat terrifying.

I dunno - I don't have nay answers to anything. I don't like a lot of male behavior, but I don't like a lot of human behaviors either. I don't really have any solutions, but I do know that any solutions aren't going to be broad brush and that you have to take people with you.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 15:09 
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Curiosity wrote:
To only address one point, the Fallon thing is very much not about one hand on JHB’s knee. More has already come out, and more will follow.

Has it? What? The only other thing I'd heard was that he'd made "lewd comments to Andrea Leadsome" (which I assume was along the lines of "you're a batshit crazy c*nt") which is really into difficult territory in terms of who to root for. She might be a woman, but first and foremost she's a fucking evil tory.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 15:10 
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Cras wrote:
I think a lot of people are equating a flirty glance with groping, but pretty much on the reactionary media side - the whole "politically correct nonsense, I can't even smile at someone without being labelled an abuser" crap.

They are as well, yes, but it's certainly going on on the other "side" as well. For example, that LinkedIn barrister - read her articles in the Guardian even before this.

The difficulty comes in when it's people doing the talking for the victims.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 15:12 
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MrChris wrote:
She might be a woman, but first and foremost she's a fucking evil tory.


Did you hear that she's also a mother?


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 15:13 
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Isn't that lovely?

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MrChris wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
To only address one point, the Fallon thing is very much not about one hand on JHB’s knee. More has already come out, and more will follow.

Has it? What? The only other thing I'd heard was that he'd made "lewd comments to Andrea Leadsome" (which I assume was along the lines of "you're a batshit crazy c*nt") which is really into difficult territory in terms of who to root for. She might be a woman, but first and foremost she's a fucking evil tory.


Apparently she said she had cold hands and he said that he had somewhere warm she could put them.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 15:25 
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Curiosity wrote:
Nobody wanted a scene, but even raising it with the person in question seemed impossible as they controlled our destiny.


Tch. If RuySan was there he'd have fixed it all and called you a coward.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 15:39 
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I agree with MrChris.

He's expressed my opinion over all this with his last few posts better than I'd have managed myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 15:45 
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MrChris wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
To only address one point, the Fallon thing is very much not about one hand on JHB’s knee. More has already come out, and more will follow.

Has it? What? The only other thing I'd heard was that he'd made "lewd comments to Andrea Leadsome" (which I assume was along the lines of "you're a batshit crazy c*nt") which is really into difficult territory in terms of who to root for. She might be a woman, but first and foremost she's a fucking evil tory.


I read something about some other stuff potentially coming out, but he himself said this -

Quote:
Sir Michael Fallon has refused to say whether more allegations of sexual misconduct are likely to emerge in the future.

Asked by the BBC’s political editor Laura Kuenssberg whether he feared that would be the case he appeared to avoid the question.

Instead he replied: “Well the culture has changed over the years. What might have been acceptable 15 or ten years ago is clearly not acceptable now.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 16:40 
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Time for me to duck out of this thread. I am getting an ocular strain.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 16:44 
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Quote:
Sir Michael Fallon has refused to say whether more allegations of sexual misconduct are likely to emerge in the future.

Asked by the BBC’s political editor Laura Kuenssberg whether he feared that would be the case he appeared to avoid the question.

Instead he replied: “Well the culture has changed over the years. What might have been acceptable 15 or ten years ago is clearly not acceptable now.


I'd be interested to hear an example of what he thought was acceptable in 2007 that no longer is.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 16:50 
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Vuvuzelas

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 16:51 
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Squirt wrote:
I'd be interested to hear an example of what he thought was acceptable in 2007 that no longer is.


Rolf Harris.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 16:52 
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Squirt wrote:
Quote:
Sir Michael Fallon has refused to say whether more allegations of sexual misconduct are likely to emerge in the future.

Asked by the BBC’s political editor Laura Kuenssberg whether he feared that would be the case he appeared to avoid the question.

Instead he replied: “Well the culture has changed over the years. What might have been acceptable 15 or ten years ago is clearly not acceptable now.


I'd be interested to hear an example of what he thought was acceptable in 2007 that no longer is.

Charging £2 a month :attitude:


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 16:53 
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According to a baffling magazine article i just found online, Denim Miniskirts with Cropped Leggings.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 16:56 
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Squirt wrote:
According to a baffling magazine article i just found online, Denim Miniskirts with Cropped Leggings.

That’s surely more 90s.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 17:04 
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Kern wrote:
MrChris wrote:
She might be a woman, but first and foremost she's a fucking evil tory.


Did you hear that she's also a mother?


Heh.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 18:27 
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Well, one name has already come out in the Feldman... Thingy. Jon Grissom.


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 18:29 
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2017. The year you realise all your heroes have feet of cunt.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 18:34 
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I thought you meant John Grisham for a moment. Phew.

Genuinely have no idea who John Grissom is, even after googling him.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 18:42 
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If you were being cynical, it's like a freebie to drive revenue. "See, here's someone who isn't a complete nobody,they've got an IMDB page and everything! Now pony up the cash to see if there's anyone really famous!"


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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 18:58 
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Curiosity wrote:
MrChris wrote:
I was talking to Ruth about this the other day. I’m inherently uncomfortable with some people’s approach of putting everything on the same spectrum, from unwanted flirtation to rape, as if there is any remote moral equivalence there, or as if one is a gateway drug to the other. I can't provide links off the top of my head but the tenor of some of the commentary has been along those lines.

And the vague moral panic that’s going on at the moment is in some respects a little bit odd. Whilst Fallon is an objectionable twat, if all he’s really done is put his hand on Julia Hartley-Brewer’s knee umpteen years ago, and she doesn’t care about it, I’m not sure why this is a “fall on your sword” issue or why there is any line being drawn between that and Harvey Weinstein. I was also disappointed that the BBC, in the context of all of this, had that barrister on who made that bloke’s life a misery after he messaged her on LinkedIn saying he thought she had a stunning photo.

Yes, there’s undoubtedly an issue with men and sexual assault, and with men in positions of power using that power in an inappropriate way (#notallmen) but conflating all of this into one big ball of anger about everything that is verging on a score settling witch hunt in areas (god knows both main UK political parties seem to be doing this) seems counterproductive.

However, whilst I think at the bottom end of that spectrum, the unwanted flirtation in a bar, the looking at a pretty lady or whatever, you’re arguably, as an individual, not doing anything “wrong” per se, it’s worth bearing in mind you may be the third or fourth person to try to chat that woman up in the bar that evening when all she wants to do is the Times crossword, or she may have been stared at ALL DAY by rando weird men. It’s perfectly reasonable for her to then be fairly pissed off and let you know that. But then, as with much in life, a little bit of empathy for other people goes a long way.


To only address one point, the Fallon thing is very much not about one hand on JHB’s knee. More has already come out, and more will follow.

What irks me is how there are lots of nods and “Yeah, he was always a bit dodgy”. Had it with Saville, now every fucker is saying it about Spacey and Family Guy jokes about him in this way years ago.

The annoyance is not at any victims or even those who were arguably complicit but didn’t feel able to speak out, just in general.

I remember once a boss of mine was very ‘handsy’ with a colleague in our team. He was drunk and it was late and all that usual shit. Made it very uncomfortable for the colleague in question, and for the rest of us. We tried to engineer it so it stopped, but even in that situation none of us felt comfortable in saying anything (all people in this story are male, which might be a factor, I dunno). Nobody wanted a scene, but even raising it with the person in question seemed impossible as they controlled our destiny.

I was thinking about this on the way home.

There’s often a broader issue with people being scared to speak up - if this individual had been breaking laws or taking bribes would anybody’have said anything?

We need a culture, whether at work or generally, where people are comfortable to speak out - either to the person concerned or to someone else in power. But it’s like that thing where a load of people stand around watching a crime and they all assume someone else is calling the police. Only it’s worse because they all feel like they might get in trouble for doing it.

So for this sort of thing I think men need to more actively speak up when they think other men are doing something either flat out morally wrong or even that is just making a woman uncomfortable (“she’s been chatted up four times already and isn’t interested”).

I know I’ve taken to being more actively outspoken about behaviour I think is off - I think HR are getting sick of hearing from me... because whilst the big stuff is already illegal and if people don’t know it’s wrong there’s no fucking helping them, there’s plenty of other stuff that acts as background noise that makes women’s lives that little bit harder. Why should Ruth have to worry about jogging past a group of lads on a park bench....

I said earlier I don’t have any solutions. I don’t, but, whilst it’s a bit “wouldn’t it be nice if everyone were nice”, I do take the view that your starting point should be “be kind, respectful and considerate” and generally you can’t go far wrong.

To use that example from earlier, whilst approaching a woman in a bar isn’t wrong as such, it’s worth taking a moment to think how it might be received.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 19:18 
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I totally agree with you, but your example is a powerful tricky one. What if she's in the bar to meet new people?

You'd need to be a psychic to accurately figure that one out.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 19:22 
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I can't speak for all women everywhere, obviously, but I personally don't object to being approached in a bar. What I do object to is having to repeatedly tell someone no, or provide a million reasons why I don't want to drink with them, or repeatedly push their hands off my body because I am not their fucking property.

But that could just be me.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 19:22 
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Oh totally - so whilst I totally get why women may be pissed off by it, I think that’s an example where the guy really shouldn’t be castigated. This example was the one that had me and Ruth really scratching our heads.

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 Post subject: Re: Hollywood Assaults
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 19:28 
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Jem wrote:
I can't speak for all women everywhere, obviously, but I personally don't object to being approached in a bar. What I do object to is having to repeatedly tell someone no, or provide a million reasons why I don't want to drink with them, or repeatedly push their hands off my body because I am not their fucking property.

But that could just be me.

I don’t think any reasonable person would say anything different!

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