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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 14:44 
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Well, Tesla have been perfectly clear that the Autopilot feature on their cars is "public beta" and cannot be relied on.

Personally I don't think it should have been enabled on consumer vehicles, or at least not without some sort of limitations (e.g. using GPS to ensure that it can only be activated on motorways.)


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 14:45 
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It's a litigation shield. Tesla (and I'm willing to bet, every driverless manufacturer) is never going to assume full liability for accidents that occur in their vehicles.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 14:48 
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DavPaz wrote:
How many people died in human-driven (drove?) cars in avoidable accidents yesterday?


That's entirely not what I'm getting at though. Humans making mistakes in cars and killing people is as old as cars themselves, and we have procedures and laws and insurance etc etc to deal with it, self-driving cars killing people because they made a mistake is something completely new.

If a Tesla driving autonomously makes a clear mistake that kills someone, who is to blame? Is it Tesla? Is it the driver because they were supposed to be shadow-driving and intervening if necessary? And how do you prove it one way or another? The window of opportunity for a driver to take corrective emergency action could be a split-second, what's the metric going to be for if it was their fault or the car's fault?

There's a massive list of considerations to be dealt with before driverless cars can be let loose on the roads IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 14:49 
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Cras wrote:
It's a litigation shield. Tesla (and I'm willing to bet, every driverless manufacturer) is never going to assume full liability for accidents that occur in their vehicles.


So who on earth is going to want one?

LOOK AT OUR AMAZING DRIVERLESS CAR! BUY NOW! (Oh but you still have to sort of drive it anyway, and if there's a crash it's your fault.)


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 14:55 
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Yeah, it seems like a bit of an all or nothing type of deal. Either you make something that is going to cause few enough accidents that you can deal with the claims or you don't bother. But that halfway house is never going to get much traction.


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 14:57 
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They'll assume liability in the end (the manufacturers). It'll just be priced in to the cost of the car.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:02 
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Driverless cars will have to be shit slow.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:02 
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Cras wrote:
It's a litigation shield. Tesla (and I'm willing to bet, every driverless manufacturer) is never going to assume full liability for accidents that occur in their vehicles.

It's not up to them whether they exclude liability for negligence, though. There will be ways around Tesla saying "can't rely on this system" arguing on the size of font.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:03 
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I've been thinking about this and my thoughts lead on to stopping distances but then I thought about speed limits.

Would self driving cars be programmed to stick to the speed limits no matter what?


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:04 
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TheVision wrote:
I've been thinking about this and my thoughts lead on to stopping distances but then I thought about speed limits.

Would self driving cars be programmed to stick to the speed limits no matter what?


Almost certainly.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:05 
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Malc wrote:
TheVision wrote:
I've been thinking about this and my thoughts lead on to stopping distances but then I thought about speed limits.

Would self driving cars be programmed to stick to the speed limits no matter what?


Almost certainly.


This alone would make them a hell of a lot safer than a lot of other cars I see on the road.


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:07 
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MrChris wrote:
Cras wrote:
It's a litigation shield. Tesla (and I'm willing to bet, every driverless manufacturer) is never going to assume full liability for accidents that occur in their vehicles.

It's not up to them whether they exclude liability for negligence, though. There will be ways around Tesla saying "can't rely on this system" arguing on the size of font.


I'm not saying negligence though. Say that today 5% of accidents are genuinely unavoidable (kid runs out from behind a parked van, no way to spot, no way to stop in time, even when at a safe speed for the conditions). If Tesla can reduce that to 2%, that's fantastic. But they're not going to trade that 5% of driver liability for 2% of Tesla liability.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:08 
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I just wonder whether human drivers and pedestrians will take the piss out of them. You can imagine every kid everywhere realising that if they run across a pavement when one's coming that it'll slam the brakes on. Or other drivers realising that as soon as they go to overtake the robocar will slow down to let them etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:11 
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Cras wrote:
MrChris wrote:
Cras wrote:
It's a litigation shield. Tesla (and I'm willing to bet, every driverless manufacturer) is never going to assume full liability for accidents that occur in their vehicles.

It's not up to them whether they exclude liability for negligence, though. There will be ways around Tesla saying "can't rely on this system" arguing on the size of font.


I'm not saying negligence though. Say that today 5% of accidents are genuinely unavoidable (kid runs out from behind a parked van, no way to spot, no way to stop in time, even when at a safe speed for the conditions). If Tesla can reduce that to 2%, that's fantastic. But they're not going to trade that 5% of driver liability for 2% of Tesla liability.

But they don't get to decide, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:13 
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MrChris wrote:
Cras wrote:
MrChris wrote:
Cras wrote:
It's a litigation shield. Tesla (and I'm willing to bet, every driverless manufacturer) is never going to assume full liability for accidents that occur in their vehicles.

It's not up to them whether they exclude liability for negligence, though. There will be ways around Tesla saying "can't rely on this system" arguing on the size of font.


I'm not saying negligence though. Say that today 5% of accidents are genuinely unavoidable (kid runs out from behind a parked van, no way to spot, no way to stop in time, even when at a safe speed for the conditions). If Tesla can reduce that to 2%, that's fantastic. But they're not going to trade that 5% of driver liability for 2% of Tesla liability.

But they don't get to decide, though.

Through lobbying they might.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:14 
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MrChris wrote:
Cras wrote:
MrChris wrote:
Cras wrote:
It's a litigation shield. Tesla (and I'm willing to bet, every driverless manufacturer) is never going to assume full liability for accidents that occur in their vehicles.

It's not up to them whether they exclude liability for negligence, though. There will be ways around Tesla saying "can't rely on this system" arguing on the size of font.


I'm not saying negligence though. Say that today 5% of accidents are genuinely unavoidable (kid runs out from behind a parked van, no way to spot, no way to stop in time, even when at a safe speed for the conditions). If Tesla can reduce that to 2%, that's fantastic. But they're not going to trade that 5% of driver liability for 2% of Tesla liability.

But they don't get to decide, though.


Surely they get to decide to some extent by saying 'you need to remain alert' rather than 'feel free to have a kip'?

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:17 
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markg wrote:
I just wonder whether human drivers and pedestrians will take the piss out of them. You can imagine every kid everywhere realising that if they run across a pavement when one's coming that it'll slam the brakes on. Or other drivers realising that as soon as they go to overtake the robocar will slow down to let them etc.

Will Robocars fall for the 'invisible rope across the road' trick?

Or unscrupulous chalk artists drawing gaping holes in the floor?

Oh, do they actually scan the road surface for potholes and stuff?

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:19 
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Cras wrote:
Surely they get to decide to some extent by saying 'you need to remain alert' rather than 'feel free to have a kip'?

That's arguable - your responsibility from a product liability point of view is dependent on "reasonably foreseeable use", and you can’t necessarily get around that by just putting warnings/disclaimers in the product manual saying "don't do this".

Myp makes a very good point though, but I suspect if we get to the situation where the government has to pass a law saying "driverless car manufacturers won't be liable if their cars flip out and murder people" the line of people prepared to buy one might end up quite short.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:22 
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Zardoz wrote:
markg wrote:
I just wonder whether human drivers and pedestrians will take the piss out of them. You can imagine every kid everywhere realising that if they run across a pavement when one's coming that it'll slam the brakes on. Or other drivers realising that as soon as they go to overtake the robocar will slow down to let them etc.

Will Robocars fall for the 'invisible rope across the road' trick?

Or unscrupulous chalk artists drawing gaping holes in the floor?

Oh, do they actually scan the road surface for potholes and stuff?

I wonder if Robocar will get pissed off if I cut him up.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:25 
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MrChris wrote:
Cras wrote:
Surely they get to decide to some extent by saying 'you need to remain alert' rather than 'feel free to have a kip'?

That's arguable - your responsibility from a product liability point of view is dependent on "reasonably foreseeable use", and you can’t necessarily get around that by just putting warnings/disclaimers in the product manual saying "don't do this".

Myp makes a very good point though, but I suspect if we get to the situation where the government has to pass a law saying "driverless car manufacturers won't be liable if their cars flip out and murder people" the line of people prepared to buy one might end up quite short.


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:28 
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I don't know what that means. Other than you've broken the page.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:30 
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Lonewolves wrote:
I wonder if Robocar will get pissed off if I cut him up.

Poor Warbot Robocar.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:30 
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Christine, innit.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:31 
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Bloody heathen

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:31 
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MrChris wrote:
I don't know what that means. Other than you've broken the page.

Christine.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:32 
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MrChris wrote:
I don't know what that means. Other than you've broken the page.


Christine innit, the murderous car from Stephen King's book of the same name, from the era when he was taking ALL THE DRUGS whilst writing.

EDIT - Wow, clearly need to be a bit quicker than that....


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:32 
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Might be Christine

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:40 
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MrChris wrote:
Myp makes a very good point though, but I suspect if we get to the situation where the government has to pass a law saying "driverless car manufacturers won't be liable if their cars flip out and murder people" the line of people prepared to buy one might end up quite short.


I think for a lot of people it'll be even simpler than that, if the sales pitch for a driverless car isn't just 'Get in and tell it where you want to go, then do something else for however long it takes to get there', a lot of folks will lose interest.

And that's before you even start adding in legal or insurance responsibilities for monitoring what the car's doing at all times, being prepared to take emergency action, and so on.

Plus, I guess they're going to have to program the cars to be completely non-aggressive in all situations and always err completely on the side of safety, which if they're sharing the roads with human drivers (and pedestrians), could make for some very slow progress.....


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:42 
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It won't work until all cars are driverless, I'm guessing, so expect to see driverless lanes from 2030.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:45 
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If only had to design them for that scenario then it would have been way easier as they could just all talk to each other or at least know with a high degree of certainty what the other cars are going to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:53 
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Christine.


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 15:54 
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markg wrote:
If only had to design them for that scenario then it would have been way easier as they could just all talk to each other or at least know with a high degree of certainty what the other cars are going to do.


As an IT security bod, *shudder*

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 16:01 
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Cras wrote:
markg wrote:
If only had to design them for that scenario then it would have been way easier as they could just all talk to each other or at least know with a high degree of certainty what the other cars are going to do.


As an IT security bod, *shudder*

Rather than use the wireless networks, they could communicate car to car using some kind of flashing light system.

Put one on the corner of each car, and have the light flash when you intend to move or turn in roughly that direction.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 16:02 
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Mr Russell wrote:
Cras wrote:
markg wrote:
If only had to design them for that scenario then it would have been way easier as they could just all talk to each other or at least know with a high degree of certainty what the other cars are going to do.


As an IT security bod, *shudder*

Rather than use the wireless networks, they could communicate car to car using some kind of flashing light system.

Put one on the corner of each car, and have the light flash when you intend to move or turn in roughly that direction.

Sounds dumb

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 16:08 
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And a light for when they're slowing down maybe.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 16:11 
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Isn't that lovely?

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Zardoz wrote:
And a light for when they're slowing down maybe.


Make that a different colour, so as not to confuse anything, red perhaps?

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 16:14 
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What about when you're turning onto a main road in traffic? Normally some kind soul lets you out eventually - won't driverless cars sit there forever until the end of rush hour?

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 16:29 
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Hearthly wrote:

I think for a lot of people it'll be even simpler than that, if the sales pitch for a driverless car isn't just 'Get in and tell it where you want to go, then do something else for however long it takes to get there', a lot of folks will lose interest.

If only we'd talked about how different companies have different sales pitches for driverless cars already and how there is no one approach.

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Hearthly wrote:
(As I understand it the current thinking is that you'll have to be fit to drive in case you need to take over from the computer, which sounds like the worst of both worlds.)

Opinions differ. That's one idea. The other idea is that the moment of transfer of control from computer to human is so perilous that it's best avoided entirely; hence driverless cars should have no manual controls at all beyond a hidden override joystick for service mode. The humans are only ever passengers in this scenario.


Oh.


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 16:31 
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Lonewolves wrote:
What about when you're turning onto a main road in traffic? Normally some kind soul lets you out eventually - won't driverless cars sit there forever until the end of rush hour?

Yes.

Best to get a driverless motorbike if you live in a built up area.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 16:53 
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TheVision wrote:
Christine.


:D

*applause*

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 13:34 
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The Uber driverless cars situation is quite interesting, by all accounts they seem to be making multiple mistakes and Uber are just like, 'Whatever, we're carrying on anyway.'

Surely that's into 'breaking the law' territory and people can simply be arrested?

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... -francisco

Quote:
Uber has admitted that there is a “problem” with the way autonomous vehicles cross bike lanes, raising serious questions about the safety of cyclists days after the company announced it would openly defy California regulators over self-driving vehicles.

An Uber spokeswoman said on Monday that engineers were working to fix a flaw in the programming that advocates feared could have deadly consequences for cyclists.

Uber began piloting its self-driving vehicles in its home town of San Francisco last week, despite state officials’ declaration that the ride-share company needed special permits to test its technology. On day one, numerous autonomous vehicles – which have a driver in the front seat who can take control – were caught running red lights and committing a range of traffic violations.


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 14:24 
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Seems to me that there are plenty of places where driverless cars would work better than on public roads. Endless cars and minibuses and weird trucks hooning around at the airport - you could make them driverless and have a lot less worry about pedestrians, unexpected road works, that sort of thing and you could make all vehicles have beacons or trackers or what ever on them.


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 16:44 
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Watch this video with sound; it's a dashcam vid from a Tesla. Watch for when the Tesla starts making the warning beep and when it starts automatically emergency braking. It's a solid 1--1.5 seconds before you can see anything is wrong from the driver's perspective. Very impressive.

Why this works: the Tesla forward radar can now scan two cars ahead, so it detects the braking being done by the black SUV even though the red car obscures it from the driver's perspective.


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 16:57 
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wow, that is impresive

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 16:57 
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John Finnemore this week had a very good skit on autonomous safety operation in cars.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 14:58 
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https://medium.com/waymo/a-note-on-our- ... f4f98902a1


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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 15:21 
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Cor.

You've got to imagine high-ups at Uber knew about that, although it's possible they didn't, I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 16:01 
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Uber as a company is basically scum

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 16:11 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Uber as a company is basically scum


I know, but so useful.

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 Post subject: Re: Driverless Cars
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 16:12 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 48607
Location: Cheshire
Lonewolves wrote:
Uber as a company is basically scum


Is tbus to do with surge pricing, NYC taxi strike or employment status of drivers?

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