Be Excellent To Each Other

I'm sorry, but there's a world of difference. Look, the hypocrisy of myself personally, and every other meat eater who's criticising this man is wholly acknowledged and admitted, as indeed I said in my first post. But there are limits to the extent and scope of this hypocrisy; it most certainly isn't absolute.

Surely we can all agree that there IS a difference between sourcing meat from a supermarket to EAT, which factually will have been produced as under a legally binding animal welfare and husbandry set of laws and regulations (as imperfect as they may be, last I looked we weren't wounding cows with crossbows then coming back with shotguns to finish 'em off 40 hours later), and killing a wild, possibly endangered animal (within a protected, wild environment) not to eat, but for "pleasure"? As if a more wide distinction were even needed, I say again, the animal was willfully and purposely attacked with an inhumane, entirely inappropriate and unnecessary weapon, leading to 40 hours of pain, fear and suffering?

If anyone can't see the clear and absolute difference between these things in moral terms then frankly there's not much else I can add. Yes, I do feel guilt about eating meat as I've said, but I'll be damned if I'm pigeon holing myself in the same moral category as this cunt for so doing.

As for Mimi's wider point about "just one lion" etc., yes of course, but if you're going to take that line we'd never do anything about anything - this whole 'perfect world or bust' argument falls flat for me. If I went round my neighbour's house and strangled their dog, or if I shot a bullock with a crossbow, I don't think it would cut much ice for me to say "yeah, well, YOUR A MEET EATER!!11 so ur just as bad" etc., now would it? The concept to grasp here, I suggest, is the notion of the 'standalone offence' which is entirely independent of and outwith the often much bigger shit that (sadly) goes on in the world.

This principle applies more widely of course, 'perfect world or bust' is oft applied to all other things besides animal welfare; we can't solve everything so there's no moral imperative (or indeed point) in doing anything, so, next time I get pulled for speeding, I can tell the copper to "go and sort the starving millions in Africa before you issue me a speeding ticket for my ultimately inconsequential and victimless misdemeanor, officer".

Seriously, it's all pretty daft when you think about it, and people tie themselves in moral knots where it's really not needed. Look, it's really simple: this guy's an arse for what he's done and he deserves everything that's coming to him. The end.

No, the positive outcome might be enough publicity to do something like banning the hunting of lions for sport. If permits go to fund conservation they shouldn't - money should come from elsewhere.

No, sorry Mimi, your whole argument still seems predicated on "other people are doing it, so why pick on this one guy [or even, that makes it less unacceptable on some level?]", upon which we fundamentally disagree.

No, the positive outcome might be enough publicity to do something like banning the hunting of lions for sport. If permits go to fund conservation they shouldn't - money should come from elsewhere.

Disagree entirely, I'm not blaming anyone for their natural reaction, it was mine too. And nor am I saying that issues should somehow only be dealt with in order of importance. Just saying that it shouldn't be "The end." that people need to also think a little further because that's how things get better. Revenge has its place but so does careful introspection and then considering the wider picture and where can we we do that if not somewhere like this?

Fair enough Mark, you're a better man than me. "Internet bandwagon" or no, I just can't feel anything but cold, steely hatred for this man. Sorry.

I'll leave it there, I think, as I'm becoming angry.

From a hunting-for-sportsman's point of view, shooting a lion before all the lions run out is probably an smart move.

Like whoever got the last fork full of sweet, sweet dodo pâté.

That would likely be a terrible thing for the lion population. If there was no incentive for the locals to keep the lions alive, then poachers would start becoming a real problem.

Fair enough Mark, you're a better man than me. "Internet bandwagon" or no, I just can't feel anything but cold, steely hatred for this man. Sorry.

I'll leave it there, I think, as I'm becoming angry.

Fair enough Mark, you're a better man than me. "Internet bandwagon" or no, I just can't feel anything but cold, steely hatred for this man. Sorry.

Mimi, you shouldn't be that confused. Do you really think the internet gave a fucking fuck about ALS? No, they were just parroting the ice bucket challenge to go with the viral crowd while mumbling some inanity about how it was a good cause.

Mimi, you shouldn't be that confused. Do you really think the internet gave a fucking fuck about ALS? No, they were just parroting the ice bucket challenge to go with the viral crowd while mumbling some inanity about how it was a good cause. Sure, a good cause that none of those people really had a personal connection with, or gave a shit about. It looks good for your fake internet profile but it doesn't mean anything - it's all bollocks. None of these armchair campaigners are going to fly to Africa to defend the lions personally and nobody should really expect them to.

But you should feel that vile disdain for everyone else that has done this as well, as there seem to be many.

If you care particularly about lions, then I suppose that is understandable that you feel a greater sense of loss for this one species than for another (much as dog lovers will support dog charities more than cat charities) but I think the other lions that are being hunted, and the other men and women that hunt them should be just as much a subject of your ire as this dentist. Make the picture wider, make it bigger - see the whole thing and use the scale of the problem as the basis for action.

I feel like you chaps are arguing about which direction your hair is being split.

Lions good. Man bad. Internet bad and silly. Us good. Also cake good. Friday good also.

I'm sorry, but where exactly did I say I don't feel vile disdain for any other people out there who wound and then eventually kill wild lions for 'sport'? For the avoidance of doubt, my utter disdain for such types isn't predicated on their being balding, American rich dentists.

Hey, no worries Meems, sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick here.

But man, this whole thing does make me angry, so help me.

The only thing I do hope for is that there is a resulting reluctance for rich businessmen and the like to now join up to hun such animals.

Again, that would be A Bad Thing for the lions as a whole.

I don't think lions are endangered are they?

Also whilst there are instances where hunting and conservation are inextricably linked there are also many if not more others where they are at odds with each other. For example where predatory wild species are targeted by gamekeepers.

I don't think lions are endangered are they? But regardless if the only way a wild species can survive is by blowing their heads off then that's surely a sign of a rather more fundamental problem. Also whilst there are instances where hunting and conservation are inextricably linked there are also many if not more others where they are at odds with each other. For example where predatory wild species are targeted by gamekeepers.

Since the 1940s, when lions numbered an estimated 450,000, lion populations have blinked out across the continent. Now they may total as few as 20,000 animals. Scientists connect the drastic decreases in many cases to burgeoning human populations.

I hate the "There are other animals/whatever that need our attention also" argument. It all goes back to the "Children in Africa" argument.

Seriously, don't do anything at all, not even be offended for anything on the internet, because you can volunteer to treat people with ebola instead.

Years ago, in the late 90's, i was very active in the anti-bullfight movement, and many people wondered what was the fuss about. "There are starving children!!" they said. Our retarded president gave the same excuse when the ex prime minister was pushing for same-sex marriange "There are many other more pressing matters, such as the economic crisis". Fuck off.

Good job that wasn't really what any cunt was fucking saying isn't it. For fucking fucks sake.

My original question, after staying that I don't thing it is wrong that people are upset by thus, is why aren't those same people upset about all of the other lions and the people that kill those?

The question isn't 'why are people upset?' But 'why are people upset by the death of one lion and not many more?'

Let's be fair here, Mark, I think people were saying/alluding to just that?

Let's be fair here, Mark, I think people were saying/alluding to just that?

Let's be fair here, Mark, I think people were saying/alluding to just that?



But anyway, the point's moot now as far as I'm concerned, we're squabbling but we all essentially agree, and I've moved on to talking about cake.

I think it was a bit more of a nuanced and interesting discussion than that, or at least it was until people started wading in and shouting the odds having clearly not read all the points which had already been raised and addressed.

It's not saying you should do nothing, but rather if people are so very incensed, maybe they should do more?
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