Be Excellent To Each Other

And, you know, party on. Dude.

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Reply to topic  [ 140 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 18:51 
User avatar

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 25549
Can anyone help explain this story to me? It's been bubbling away in the media for a few days now and I thought would disappear as quickly as it started. But it has not.

Now, I do understand that a lot of people get very shouty angry when certain large animals are killed: endangered species, zoo favourites and cute ones, especially, and I don't think that they are wrong to do so in this case. It has caused much furious outrage (though, as soon as anyone suggests that this dentist chap should be murdered, etc it all becomes a bit ridiculous. You can't preach on the sanctity of life for a lion with any kind of sincerity if you are then suggesting that a human should be strung up and murdered).

What confuses me slightly is this: The BBC article where I originally read about this said that hunting lions is not illegal in Zimbabwe. You can so as long as you have the correct permit.

This chap does not seem to have had the permit. He claims that he thought it had been arranged legally: whether that is true and people believe him, who knows?

But that you can legally kill lions in that country with a permit is a thing. And so who obtains those permits? I can't find anywhere that states the facts, but I would imagine that rich Americans do factor in somewhere... And as far as I know they don't have the screaming boards of Twitter and Facebook baying for them to be hung, drawn and quartered.

So why is this lion death so in focus? Is it because Mr Dentist didn't have a permit? Are we ok with it if you have your proper licence and certificate? Is it because this lion is 'famous', as keeps being stated? What about the non-famous lions? All lion lives matter, surely?

And famous to who: the Zimbabweans, I guess. I had never heard of Cecil the Lion until this week. Lions I have heard of: Parsley, The Cowardly Lion, Aslan. Lions I have not heard of: Cecil.

So, are the Zimbabweans the ones who started the outrage because this was their special lion? What about their other lions? What makes a special lion? How does one, as an up and coming lion, achieve stardom?

So, now there are reports on the BBC that the US authorities cannot contact the Dentist, and there are some bonkers folks stating that they hope he has killed himself, or been murdered. What is this whole thing about?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 19:33 
User avatar
Excellent Member

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 3542
Being legal or not is irrelevant. Bullfights are legal in my country but they're abhorrent. I don't see how a country legislation should dictate what is right or wrong.

The minute I saw the picture of the decapitated body of such a beautifull creature i was filled with immense sadness. Really, why to people do this? Yes, this dentist guy is awful and deserved everything the internet is throwing at him.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 19:42 
User avatar

Joined: 23rd Nov, 2008
Posts: 9521
Location: The Golden Country
RuySan wrote:
Being legal or not is irrelevant. Bullfights are legal in my country but they're abhorrent. I don't see how a country legislation should dictate what is right or wrong.

The minute I saw the picture of the decapitated body of such a beautifull creature i was filled with immense sadness. Really, why to people do this? Yes, this dentist guy is awful and deserved everything the internet is throwing at him.


:this:

I mean really, just how much of an utter knobber do you have to be to want to travel to Africa, fill in a bunch of paperwork and spend around fifty grand, for the "pleasure" of luring a fabulous, majestic wild creature away from the environs of his protected sanctuary - so you can shoot him with a fucking crossbow (whilst, no doubt, surrounded by burly men with 12-gauges). Only for the poor creature to linger on for another 40-odd hours in fear and agony until someone finally puts him out of his misery with a shotgun? Oh, and then pose triumphantly with the decapitated corpse, keeping the head as a "trophy"?

(I understand 6 cubs also died as a direct result of this also)

Seriously, these people are wrong in the head and, whilst I'm not generally one to wish ill on someone, I can honestly say I hope this guy - an educated man after all - is really getting to know what it's like to be 'hunted' right now. >:(

_________________
Beware of gavia articulata oculos...

Dr Lave wrote:
Of course, he's normally wrong but interestingly wrong :p


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 20:03 
User avatar
Hibernating Druid

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 49105
Location: Standing on your mother's Porsche
I believe the lion was also lured out of a protected zone in order for it to be killed.

Fucking scumbags.

_________________
SD&DG Illustrated! Behance Bleep Bloop

'Not without talent but dragged down by bass turgidity'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 20:05 
User avatar

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 25549
RuySan wrote:
Being legal or not is irrelevant. Bullfights are legal in my country but they're abhorrent. I don't see how a country legislation should dictate what is right or wrong.

The minute I saw the picture of the decapitated body of such a beautifull creature i was filled with immense sadness. Really, why to people do this? Yes, this dentist guy is awful and deserved everything the internet is throwing at him.

That's kind of my point, though. If it happens legally, in the same country, etc, etc, why is there no furore about THOSE animals? Why just this one lion?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 20:06 
User avatar

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 16552
Here's Louis Theroux being pretty on point about the whole thing:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 24613.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 20:07 
User avatar

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 25549
Zardoz wrote:
I believe the lion was also lured out of a protected zone in order for it to be killed.

Fucking scumbags.


Again, then, why does it matter less if another lion is not in a protected zone (though yes, it would point towards a particularly well organised practice of nastiness to go to the trouble of targeting an animal in a protected zone).

My original question, after staying that I don't thing it is wrong that people are upset by thus, is why aren't those same people upset about all of the other lions and the people that kill those?

The question isn't 'why are people upset?' But 'why are people upset by the death of one lion and not many more?'

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 20:13 
User avatar

Joined: 23rd Nov, 2008
Posts: 9521
Location: The Golden Country
To be fair, I'm sure many people feel just the same way about any other animal hunted for 'pleasure', I know I do. (I hate fox hunting here in the UK for instance).

That said, it can't be denied that this particular animal was iconic and majestic, and I understand that whilst not immediately threatened as tigers are, lions are in steep decline in the wild?

Bottom line? I just cannot, for the absolute life of me, see what could possibly be pleasurable, thrilling or whatever else, in taking the life of any living animal, most especially in such an inhumane and barbaric manner (a crossbow?). Sure, there's an element of hypocrisy I guess; I love meat and no doubt close my mind and eyes to stuff that may well go on in abattoirs just so I can enjoy my steak and chips. But really, at least I'm paying the animal the respect of eating it to sustain myself.

_________________
Beware of gavia articulata oculos...

Dr Lave wrote:
Of course, he's normally wrong but interestingly wrong :p


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 20:14 
Excellent Member

Joined: 5th Dec, 2010
Posts: 3353
The Dentist in question has a Federal record for shooting a Black bear outside of the correct areas and then lying about it

So guess he went through the motions with permits and shot what he wanted.

There is a trade in "big game" shooting which I've no time for and its also quite pathetic as they tend to shoot older animals to manage the reserves but charge dumb Americans big money to shoot a tired old animal with an M16 and call themselves big game hunters

Still as long as you have poverty and people with money this will always go one, until there is nothing left to shoot, then maybe will be start hunting each other :)

There is a lot of fuss about the Lion as it was very famous and well liked and these clowns fucked up by picking on it to shoot and not understanding what the impact would be.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 20:17 
User avatar

Joined: 23rd Nov, 2008
Posts: 9521
Location: The Golden Country
I also understand he was semi-tame, or at least at ease and trusting with humans, which just adds yet another layer of rank cowardice and duplicity to the whole sorry episode.

Didn't do him (or his cubs) much good, eh. Fucking scumbags - there's always one.

_________________
Beware of gavia articulata oculos...

Dr Lave wrote:
Of course, he's normally wrong but interestingly wrong :p


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 20:20 
User avatar
Paws for thought

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 17154
Location: Just Outside That London, England, Europe
Mimi wrote:
The question isn't 'why are people upset?' But 'why are people upset by the death of one lion and not many more?'

Publicity.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 20:26 
User avatar

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 16552
Cavey wrote:
To be fair, I'm sure many people feel just the same way about any other animal hunted for 'pleasure', I know I do. (I hate fox hunting here in the UK for instance).

That said, it can't be denied that this particular animal was iconic and majestic, and I understand that whilst not immediately threatened as tigers are, lions are in steep decline in the wild?

Bottom line? I just cannot, for the absolute life of me, see what could possibly be pleasurable, thrilling or whatever else, in taking the life of any living animal, most especially in such an inhumane and barbaric manner (a crossbow?). Sure, there's an element of hypocrisy I guess; I love meat and no doubt close my mind and eyes to stuff that may well go on in abattoirs just so I can enjoy make steak and chips. But really, at least I'm paying the animal the respect of eating it to sustain myself.

There's a huge element of hypocrisy. It's something that bothers me whenever I stop to think about things. I don't eat meat because I have to in order to sustain myself and neither does anyone I know. We're complicit in an utterly brutal and cruel industry just because we don't want to give up a trivial pleasure. I think of people who choose not to eat meat for reasons of conscience as morally superior to me in that regard. None of the reasons people give to try and let themselves off the hook ever made much sense to me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 20:29 
User avatar
UltraMod

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 55715
Location: California
Also the internet people telling the dentist guy to kill himself, and PETA wanting him hanged is a bit fucking much. I don't think the police officers who murdered actual black people got this much grief.

It was a horrible thing to do, the guy is an obvious prick and animal cruelty makes me sick, but wanting to the perpetrator to die in return disgusts me.

_________________
I am currently under construction.
Thank you for your patience.


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 20:32 
User avatar

Joined: 23rd Nov, 2008
Posts: 9521
Location: The Golden Country
That's all true, Mark, and I have great admiration for veggies/vegans. But, we're certainly not eating meat for the pleasure of killing animals.

From a moral compass perspective, is it worse to kill for pleasure and not food, or let other people kill your food for you with your knowing damn fine well that animals unquestionably will suffer fear, pain and, or course, death as a direct result, turning a blind eye and keep picking those shrink-wrapped packets of meat from the aisles of Sainsbury's or wherever? For me, the latter isn't great for sure, but the former really, really stinks. At least, that's how I see it.

Personally speaking and not withstanding my own hypocrisy, I don't have any problem roundly condemning this arsehole.

_________________
Beware of gavia articulata oculos...

Dr Lave wrote:
Of course, he's normally wrong but interestingly wrong :p


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 20:35 
User avatar
Bad Girl

Joined: 20th Apr, 2008
Posts: 14353
Mimi wrote:
The question isn't 'why are people upset?' But 'why are people upset by the death of one lion and not many more?'


I don't know about you or others, but I am upset by the killings whether it's this particular lion or many others or even endangered species or non endangered species. Legal or not illegal it's abhorrent, utterly senseless and cruel.

The vile morons who partake, organise or influence these particular activities can fucking die tomorrow and I wouldn't shed a single tear for them or their families. Scumbags that don't deserve this earth that we call home.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 21:01 
User avatar

Joined: 31st Mar, 2008
Posts: 1883
I think people just hate dentists. I know I do.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 22:32 
User avatar
Esoteric

Joined: 12th Dec, 2008
Posts: 11767
Location: On Mars as an anthropologist...
They should put that prick in a octagon cage naked with a wiffle bat and a lion and see how hard he is then.

_________________
I reject your context and reality, and substitute my own.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 23:52 

Joined: 15th Nov, 2008
Posts: 484
..........................................

_________________
Bye.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:04 
User avatar

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 25549
BBC artical also shows that the same person killed rhino, leopard and buffalo with pictures of him posing with the bodies of each.

But this has passed largely un-commented on. Again, I don't understand why they matter less.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:35 
User avatar
Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 48607
Location: Cheshire
A lady on the radio said it was only page 3 news over in Zimbabwe.

_________________
Mr Chris wrote:
MaliA isn't just the best thing on the internet - he's the best thing ever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:42 
SupaMod
User avatar
"Praisebot"

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 17013
Location: Parts unknown
MaliA wrote:
A lady on the radio said it was only page 3 news over in Zimbabwe.


Why? Does he have a great pair of tits?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:49 
User avatar

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 16552
Mimi wrote:
BBC artical also shows that the same person killed rhino, leopard and buffalo with pictures of him posing with the bodies of each.

But this has passed largely un-commented on. Again, I don't understand why they matter less.

It's just "gone viral" on the internet. Things don't do that according to their order of importance in the grand scheme of things. Even the news doesn't work that way or it would look very different indeed. There were a few key elements I think, the lion had a name, there was a picture, the guy's previous kills were also mentioned in every story and it was carried out illegally. I'm not saying that people are wrong to be outraged by this, it's just a natural reaction on hearing the story for anyone who isn't a complete twat. But it does all ring a little hollow while they remain indifferent to entire species going dead every day. :(


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:54 
User avatar
Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 48607
Location: Cheshire
"If you are going to run a successful cafe, you have to hire the prettiest waitresses". The same rule applies in animal conservation. You don't see a lot of live for the star nosed mole.


I blame the abundance of social media. No good will come of it

_________________
Mr Chris wrote:
MaliA isn't just the best thing on the internet - he's the best thing ever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:56 
User avatar

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 25549
Yes Mark, that's kind of what is bothering me a little. Not the outrage, just the indifference to all of the other lions killed in the same activity, in the same country, and all of the other species killed, whether by this same man or others. I guess I just find the idea of celebrity lion a bit odd, too.

I wonder, very much, if it's just that people on the internet (or in life in general) enjoy the witch hunt rather than the cause in which they are rallying against. Its almost like the outrage can bond people if a cause or story hits the headlines, no matter that it may be something that happens every day.

Viral media interest is always interesting. I wonder if it can be predicted in any way? It always strikes me as so random when you can have similar things every day and then one particular case goes 'whoomph!' and suddenly spreads like a rash. It's interesting.

I guess, if any good comes of this, it will be that a few less people decide to risk their careers and business in fear of similar reprisals.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:01 
User avatar

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 25549
MaliA wrote:
"If you are going to run a successful cafe, you have to hire the prettiest waitresses". The same rule applies in animal conservation. You don't see a lot of live for the star nosed mole.


I blame the abundance of social media. No good will come of it


I have seen 'he was a particularly fine an handsome lion' written about Cecil (also, awesome name), but really a lion is a lion. They are all pretty awesome. As are leopards, and Rhinos, which are hardly un-noticed and un-loved animals in media and conservation senses.

I do get what you are saying, and agree, but these are all huge animals in the public consciousness.

Your post does remind me of a poster that I saw when I was in primary school, though, which has stuck with me all these years. It said: 'Yes, we should save the whales - but what about the poor old stickleback?'

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:15 
User avatar
Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 48607
Location: Cheshire
Honestly, I dunno. Probably in Europe because lions are a prize in the grand cycling tours as a nod back to roman gladiators (until it was outlawed in 1993 after the incident at Pau when one slipped its collar and a Cofidis domestic ues was mauled). Social media outrage needs an abuse of power by someone against an entity seen as more vulnerable than the audience I guess.

_________________
Mr Chris wrote:
MaliA isn't just the best thing on the internet - he's the best thing ever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:21 
SupaMod
User avatar
Est. 1978

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 69502
Location: Your Mum
Cavey wrote:
But, we're certainly not eating meat for the pleasure of killing animals.

Yeah, but you're killing animals for the pleasure of eating meat. When you think about it rationally, there's not really any difference.

Cavey wrote:
From a moral compass perspective, is it worse to kill for pleasure and not food

I'm pretty sure the animals involved think it's about the same either way.

Disclaimer: Meat eater, obv (just in case you weren't sure)

_________________
Grim... wrote:
I wish Craster had left some girls for the rest of us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:22 
User avatar

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 16552
Mimi wrote:
Yes Mark, that's kind of what is bothering me a little. Not the outrage, just the indifference to all of the other lions killed in the same activity, in the same country, and all of the other species killed, whether by this same man or others. I guess I just find the idea of celebrity lion a bit odd, too.

I wonder, very much, if it's just that people on the internet (or in life in general) enjoy the witch hunt rather than the cause in which they are rallying against. Its almost like the outrage can bond people if a cause or story hits the headlines, no matter that it may be something that happens every day.

Viral media interest is always interesting. I wonder if it can be predicted in any way? It always strikes me as so random when you can have similar things every day and then one particular case goes 'whoomph!' and suddenly spreads like a rash. It's interesting.

I guess, if any good comes of this, it will be that a few less people decide to risk their careers and business in fear of similar reprisals.

It's not that they would be indifferent to all those others it's just that this story is the one they have happen to have been confronted with because due to largely unfathomable and unpredictable reasons it was a big story this week.

I have no problem with that inconsistency just what disappoints me is that the main reaction is "this one man must pay for the death of this one lion" rather than anything any wider.

Also I can picture what this man did and feel just as angry as anyone but when I give it a bit of thought I start to feel a little uneasy about that. I cannot put myself in the mindset of someone who would do something like this for fun, I just cannot understand it. Like most normal people my natural tendency is to relate to the lion. However the facts are that in lots of places people are brought up around hunting and killing for sport so I must accept that if I happened to have been born in a different place to different parents then I would completely understand his motivations. So I must also accept that he might not be an inherently evil person. Nobody would really ever get in any bother for inflicting the same level of suffering on a deer, it goes on all the time. So from his perspective he probably feels that he is guilty of something akin to theft, although he claims that he was ignorant of that and I have no way of knowing if this was true. I don't imagine that the national parks over there have big fences round them so I guess it's plausible that he thought this was fair game.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:22 
User avatar

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 25549
That still doesn't explain why people don't seem to care about the other lions being hunted in Zimbabwe (and other nations), though.

Also, no, I doubt it has anything to do with bikes :p

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:25 
User avatar
Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 48607
Location: Cheshire
Mimi wrote:
That still doesn't explain why people don't seem to care about the other lions being hunted in Zimbabwe (and other nations), though.

Also, no, I doubt it has anything to do with bikes :p


I think Louis the roux* did a documentary about game hunting in Africa.

Relatedly, I recall a brou ha ha over a terminally ill child on the make a wish type thing wanting to shoot a bear or somesuch.

*Theroux. Stupid phone. Although Louis The Roux sounds like a particularly nasty gangland enforcer.

_________________
Mr Chris wrote:
MaliA isn't just the best thing on the internet - he's the best thing ever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:25 
User avatar

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 25549
markg wrote:
I have no problem with that inconsistency just what disappoints me is that the main reaction is "this one man must pay for the death of this one lion" rather than anything any wider.

:this:

I would rather see more 'let's gather our anger and outrage and seek to appeal to the authorities in Zimbabwe and other nations to outlaw the hunting of lions and other endangered animals' rather than 'let's find this **** and tear his vital organs out and shove them down his throat', etc.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:33 
SupaMod
User avatar
Est. 1978

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 69502
Location: Your Mum
Clickbait headline, but this is an interesting article:
http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/lio ... 1720901473
Quote:
Lion murderer Walt Palmer is an asshole. But, he’s also an asshole who’s contributed more money to animal conservation in Africa than pretty much anyone else. In fact, trophy hunters like him are a large part of the reason we still have animals like lions at all.


I'm not sure I agree entirely, but it makes a good point.

_________________
Grim... wrote:
I wish Craster had left some girls for the rest of us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:35 
User avatar
Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 48607
Location: Cheshire
Mimi wrote:
markg wrote:
I have no problem with that inconsistency just what disappoints me is that the main reaction is "this one man must pay for the death of this one lion" rather than anything any wider.

:this:

I would rather see more 'let's gather our anger and outrage and seek to appeal to the authorities in Zimbabwe and other nations to outlaw the hunting of lions and other endangered animals' rather than 'let's find this **** and tear his vital organs out and shove them down his throat', etc.


A dentist of near pensionable age is a lot safer target than Robert Mugabe. Whose surname is " e ba gum" backwards which never fails to elicit a smile from me.

_________________
Mr Chris wrote:
MaliA isn't just the best thing on the internet - he's the best thing ever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:37 
User avatar

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 25549
Grim... wrote:
Cavey wrote:
But, we're certainly not eating meat for the pleasure of killing animals.

Yeah, but you're killing animals for the pleasure of eating meat. When you think about it rationally, there's not really any difference.

Cavey wrote:
From a moral compass perspective, is it worse to kill for pleasure and not food

I'm pretty sure the animals involved think it's about the same either way.

Disclaimer: Meat eater, obv (just in case you weren't sure)


I think what you say is true in both cases, Grim...

I think there is, however, a disjoint in the moral psyche for many that separates killing a bred animal from killing a wild animal. Now, in the terms of hunting for food, I am not sure where I stand on this. As long as the animal is abundant, not endangered in any way, then I would imagine that the animal in the wild has probably, until that point, had a better life in the wild. However, on the flipside, they are more likely to be killed in a less humane way, haphazard, where they may sustain injuries and escape to be wounded until their eventual death, or suffer a painful ending due to the method of killing. They are also more likely to have dependant offspring that will suffer without future care provision.

I think many people's natural morality, however, says that if you kill (to eat, maybe even to just hunt) an animal raised or the purpose you are not taking them out of nature's 'pot'. If you take a life from the wild (especially in a species that is not abundant) you are depriving nature of the chance to re-stock and calibrate the balance (however out of balance that may be because of the impact of other human actions such as habitation, industry, etc).

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:43 
User avatar

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 16552
See I think that morality is massively more influenced by the desire to eat yummy steaks than any objective considerations over the rights and wrongs of where and how the animal was killed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:43 
SupaMod
User avatar
Est. 1978

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 69502
Location: Your Mum
markg wrote:
See I think that morality is massively more influenced by the desire to eat yummy steaks than any objective considerations over the rights and wrongs of where and how the animal was killed.

Very much :this:

Wild animals killed by hunters have, up to that point, well, been wild animals, and probably had quite a nice life. Farmed animals killed for food really, really haven't.

_________________
Grim... wrote:
I wish Craster had left some girls for the rest of us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:44 
User avatar
Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 48607
Location: Cheshire
markg wrote:
See I think that morality is massively more influenced by the desire to eat yummy steaks than any objective considerations over the rights and wrongs of where and how the animal was killed.


I try to avoid kosher and halal meat, for what it is worth, but other than that, I don't give much thought to poultry or cattle processing.

_________________
Mr Chris wrote:
MaliA isn't just the best thing on the internet - he's the best thing ever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:46 
User avatar

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 16552
The problem I have is that I really do believe all this stuff and yet I still eat meat, which makes me worse than anyone really.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:47 
User avatar
Unpossible!

Joined: 27th Jun, 2008
Posts: 38439
Someone reposted something on reddit yesterday about how "stalking" a lion is a ridiculous concept. It showed that even in the wild Lions act like big domestic cats. They lounge about in the sun and pay absolutely no heed to humans at all. They will literally shade themselves in the shadow of a safari truck. Stalking and killing a Lion is nothing more than waiting for it to walk into range of your crossbow.

Here it is http://imgur.com/gallery/59N0c


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:47 
Excellent Member

Joined: 5th Dec, 2010
Posts: 3353
I eat meat and I'm well aware of where is comes from, which astoundingly is not the case for a lot of people.

I will avoid meat where I understand that the animals have not been killed or kept well.

I won't eat pork from the EU as they don't have the same rules of pig welfare as the UK, I also will not eat any meat from the US as they way they keep and kill animals is disgusting.

Although I'm a meat eater I will eat fish or something else much to my brothers annoyance the odd time we have dinner is some US steak house in London.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:49 
User avatar
Unpossible!

Joined: 27th Jun, 2008
Posts: 38439
FUnnily enough, as I get older my taste for red meat is declining. I think it's because MrsPaz doesn't eat much meat* and we don't tend to give it to the kids much. I had Quorn 'chicken' in my pasta the other day, for the Love of God!

* Pre-emptive :hat:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:50 
User avatar

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 25549
Grim... wrote:
markg wrote:
See I think that morality is massively more influenced by the desire to eat yummy steaks than any objective considerations over the rights and wrongs of where and how the animal was killed.

Very much :this:

Wild animals killed by hunters have, up to that point, well, been wild animals, and probably had quite a nice life. Farmed animals killed for food really, really haven't.


Yes, that's true. Though also I can see from the slight that the slaughter process from a regulated standpoint is perhaps more humane than taking a shot and just hoping you hit the right part, which leads onto MaliA's point about other methods of slaughter (particularly within religious guidelines) which many would argue are less humane.

I did read an article the other day where somewhere (Denmark, I think it may have been) has outlawed Kosher and halal slaughter due to animal cruelty.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:52 
Excellent Member

Joined: 5th Dec, 2010
Posts: 3353
DavPaz wrote:
FUnnily enough, as I get older my taste for red meat is declining. I think it's because MrsPaz doesn't eat much meat* and we don't tend to give it to the kids much. I had Quorn 'chicken' in my pasta the other day, for the Love of God!

* Pre-emptive :hat:


I like a steak, but we tend to eat chicken and fish mostly. My son is at the age where every 3 weeks there are teeth coming through so he tends to like the softer texture of fish over meat.

Also red meat is not supposed to be good thing all the time

I would genuinely like to eat more vegetarian stuff, my sister in law is Indian and I've been to many weddings where there was no meat, but the food was so good you didn't miss it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:04 
User avatar

Joined: 23rd Nov, 2008
Posts: 9521
Location: The Golden Country
Grim... wrote:
Cavey wrote:
But, we're certainly not eating meat for the pleasure of killing animals.

Yeah, but you're killing animals for the pleasure of eating meat. When you think about it rationally, there's not really any difference.


I'm sorry, but there's a world of difference. Look, the hypocrisy of myself personally, and every other meat eater who's criticising this man is wholly acknowledged and admitted, as indeed I said in my first post. But there are limits to the extent and scope of this hypocrisy; it most certainly isn't absolute.

Surely we can all agree that there IS a difference between sourcing meat from a supermarket to EAT, which factually will have been produced as under a legally binding animal welfare and husbandry set of laws and regulations (as imperfect as they may be, last I looked we weren't wounding cows with crossbows then coming back with shotguns to finish 'em off 40 hours later), and killing a wild, possibly endangered animal (within a protected, wild environment) not to eat, but for "pleasure"? As if a more wide distinction were even needed, I say again, the animal was willfully and purposely attacked with an inhumane, entirely inappropriate and unnecessary weapon, leading to 40 hours of pain, fear and suffering?

If anyone can't see the clear and absolute difference between these things in moral terms then frankly there's not much else I can add. Yes, I do feel guilt about eating meat as I've said, but I'll be damned if I'm pigeon holing myself in the same moral category as this cunt for so doing.

As for Mimi's wider point about "just one lion" etc., yes of course, but if you're going to take that line we'd never do anything about anything - this whole 'perfect world or bust' argument falls flat for me. If I went round my neighbour's house and strangled their dog, or if I shot a bullock with a crossbow, I don't think it would cut much ice for me to say "yeah, well, YOUR A MEET EATER!!11 so ur just as bad" etc., now would it? The concept to grasp here, I suggest, is the notion of the 'standalone offence' which is entirely independent of and outwith the often much bigger shit that (sadly) goes on in the world.

This principle applies more widely of course, 'perfect world or bust' is oft applied to all other things besides animal welfare; we can't solve everything so there's no moral imperative (or indeed point) in doing anything, so, next time I get pulled for speeding, I can tell the copper to "go and sort the starving millions in Africa before you issue me a speeding ticket for my ultimately inconsequential and victimless misdemeanor, officer".

Seriously, it's all pretty daft when you think about it, and people tie themselves in moral knots where it's really not needed. Look, it's really simple: this guy's an arse for what he's done and he deserves everything that's coming to him. The end.

_________________
Beware of gavia articulata oculos...

Dr Lave wrote:
Of course, he's normally wrong but interestingly wrong :p


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:09 
User avatar
Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 48607
Location: Cheshire
Grim... wrote:
Clickbait headline, but this is an interesting article:
http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/lio ... 1720901473
Quote:
Lion murderer Walt Palmer is an asshole. But, he’s also an asshole who’s contributed more money to animal conservation in Africa than pretty much anyone else. In fact, trophy hunters like him are a large part of the reason we still have animals like lions at all.


I'm not sure I agree entirely, but it makes a good point.


If memory serves: Grouse are kept on Ilkley Moor to be shot when the time is right. Every year there are complaints over it, but the council always points out that the £10k a year they get for this maintains the Moor.

_________________
Mr Chris wrote:
MaliA isn't just the best thing on the internet - he's the best thing ever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:13 
User avatar
Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 48607
Location: Cheshire
It is also worth a mention that on top of the statutory regulatory frameworks, supermarket chains regularly audit suppliers. I know of one that will not buy meats unless the supplier agrees to unannounced inspections and these standards are high. The factories take pride in getting top marks, too.

_________________
Mr Chris wrote:
MaliA isn't just the best thing on the internet - he's the best thing ever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:15 
Excellent Member

Joined: 5th Dec, 2010
Posts: 3353
MaliA wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Clickbait headline, but this is an interesting article:
http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/lio ... 1720901473
Quote:
Lion murderer Walt Palmer is an asshole. But, he’s also an asshole who’s contributed more money to animal conservation in Africa than pretty much anyone else. In fact, trophy hunters like him are a large part of the reason we still have animals like lions at all.


I'm not sure I agree entirely, but it makes a good point.


If memory serves: Grouse are kept on Ilkley Moor to be shot when the time is right. Every year there are complaints over it, but the council always points out that the £10k a year they get for this maintains the Moor.


That guy makes some very good but depressing points


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:18 
User avatar

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 25549
Cavey wrote:
As for Mimi's wider point about "just one lion" etc., yes of course, but if you're going to take that line we'd never do anything about anything - this whole 'perfect world or bust' argument falls flat for me.


But it shouldn't. Nobody has said it is wrong for people to get het up about one lion, but as the hunting of lions is now pretty much mentioned in every article, to say that this isn't a one-off, why aren't more people asking why it's still a practice. It's because people like to rally against one man than against a practice, or for a cause. People can get behind a witch hunt easier than behind a cause which they can't make an angry post about for three days and then forget about.

Cavey wrote:
If I went round my neighbour's house and strangled their dog, or if I shot a bullock with a crossbow, I don't think it would cut much ice for me to say "yeah, well, YOUR A MEET EATER!!11 so ur just as bad" etc., now would it?


That's really not the same thing as anything that anyone is talking about.

If you strangled a friend's dog, and every day people around the country made it a normal pastime to strangle the dogs of their friends and neighbours, but we raised a massive witch hunt against you and this one incident of friendly dog strangling, then there would be some similarity. Thankfully, this is not the case.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:20 
User avatar
Legendary Boogeyman

Joined: 22nd Dec, 2010
Posts: 8175
I've skimmed this thread and I really don't understand your confusion Mimi. Why this one Lion? It's pretty obvious isn't it?

All day, every day, tragedies of all kinds happen all over the world to tens of millions of people. It would be mentally and emotionally impossible to be aware of and cope with the knowledge of all of these things. At best you would become incredibly depressed at the vast scale of misery and woe faced by the human race.

But we don't do that. We chug along in most blissful ignorance that while bad things probably happen, we don't know about them and we're happier for it. Unless something gets picked up by the media and repeated. Crafted in a way to tug at those heartstrings and cause outrage - and to go viral, so subsequent stories about it can be written. Papers sold, hits made to websites. Ultimately the media is a money-making machine and the story is the product and they don't give a fuck either.

So why this one Lion? Because people have been made aware of it. That's all. I'm as outraged as anyone (I believe I said on Facebook that he was a twatface that should only be allowed to kill a lion if he could use his bare hands), but even I know that worse stuff happens every day.

Sometimes this media hype can achieve a useful end. And by useful I don't mean the utter harassment of this tosser (or, say, getting a Nobel Laureate fired for making a fucking joke you honking reactionary cunts). The dentist dude is pretty much toast as far as his business and reputation go, and when the internet decides you're in for it there's very little coming back. The guy's best hope is the next outrage will eventually make people forget about him, and they probably will after he changes his name, appearance, and moves state.

No, the positive outcome might be enough publicity to do something like banning the hunting of lions for sport. If permits go to fund conservation they shouldn't - money should come from elsewhere. People on the internet will throw signatures at it (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/821/738/ ... zimbambwe/ - 900k here) or money, or something else which *might* achieve something.

Of course, we're in the West and Zimbabweans barely care. I read this quote on the BBC today:

Quote:
Cecil's killing has attracted little media attention inside Africa. What little comment there was came in the form of derisive editorials in Zimbabwean state media.
"Not since Simba, of The Lion King fame, has a lion captured the world's imagination in this way," Alex Magaisa wrote in the Zimbabwean Herald newspaper. While tragic, the lion's death has not inflamed local passions because it is "far removed from the lived realities of most of the local people," he added, saying that tourism and hunting in Zimbabwe are "mired in elitism".
The writer said neither he nor his family had heard of Cecil the lion before it was killed.
Kennedy Mavhumashava struck a similar note in the Zimbabwe Chronicle and invoked the history of Western colonialism: "Many believe the lion was named after Cecil John Rhodes, the celebrated forerunner of British colonialism in Southern Africa, explaining the saturation coverage on the demise of his namesake."


This local cunt thinks we're all up in arms because the lion was possibly named after some colonial guy nobody has ever heard of? Fuck off you idiotic moron.

There's no point here. The world is as it is. The internet makes everything within reach and anyone can become a target of its shrill and mercurial bandwagon. This is seldom to the good.

_________________
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
Pretty much everyone agrees with Gnomes, really, it's just some are too right on to admit it. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cecil The Lion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:22 
User avatar
Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 48607
Location: Cheshire
I thought it was named after Rhodes, too.

_________________
Mr Chris wrote:
MaliA isn't just the best thing on the internet - he's the best thing ever.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 140 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: The Greys, Vogons and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search within this thread:
You are using the 'Ted' forum. Bill doesn't really exist any more. Bogus!
Want to help out with the hosting / advertising costs? That's very nice of you.
Are you on a mobile phone? Try http://beex.co.uk/m/
RIP, Owen. RIP, MrC.

Powered by a very Grim... version of phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.