Windows 10

Hearthly · **Joined:** 11th May, 2008 **Posts:** 13382

It's just a question of perseverance. I've been speaking to Mr Nadella on a daily basis, and he's finally come round to my way of thinking.

Grim... · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 9:32

Bamba wrote:

It seems Microsoft are finally bowing to all the pressure Hearthly's been pouring on them and will be disabling the Win10 upgrade nagging after July 29th.

http://www.engadget.com/2016/05/08/wind ... disappear/

I heard that's when they were going to start charging you, is why.

[edit]Which I confirmed by reading the subtitle of the article.

Hearthly · **Joined:** 11th May, 2008 **Posts:** 13382

Well yes I thought that was understood? The free upgrade period was only ever intended to be a year, Microsoft stated this pretty much at the same time that they announced the ZOMG FREE UPGRADE.

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

I am expecting the "free upgrade" offer will continue beyond the currently stated deadline, given how MS make more money off a typical W10 user than the do from a typical W7/8 user. It's obvious that they want people moving over, given how aggressively they've been pushing it.

They never said it would only be free for a year, they just said it would be free for a year.

Dr Zoidberg · **Joined:** 15th Oct, 2010 **Posts:** 5157

I expect they'll withdraw the free upgrades, then when takeup falls off a cliff, reintroduce it.

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

Dunno exactly how accurate this data is, but surely MS will be wanting to make the Win10 slice as big as possible.
https://www.netmarketshare.com/operatin ... share.aspx
Win7 is still massively dominating.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 10:18

Win 7 will be dominating, until they pull the plug for support.

JohnCoffey · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 10:25

Dr Zoidberg wrote:

I expect they'll withdraw the free upgrades, then when takeup falls off a cliff, reintroduce it.

I'm not sure tbh. They did the "hey get Windows 8 for only £49.99 !" offer and never repeated that.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

KovacsC wrote:

Win 7 will be dominating, until they pull the plug for support.

Yeah, XP dominated market share long after Win7 came out.

Hearthly · **Joined:** 11th May, 2008 **Posts:** 13382

KovacsC wrote:

Win 7 will be dominating, until they pull the plug for support.

2020, then?

KovacsC · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 10:45

Hearthly wrote:

KovacsC wrote:

Win 7 will be dominating, until they pull the plug for support.

2020, then?

edit: It is out of support now. Extended support will be 2020

I would imagine folks moving off it in the next 12 months

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lif ... indows%207

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

I wonder if Windows Mobile will still be a thing by then.

myp · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 11:00

LewieP wrote:

I wonder if Windows Mobile will still be a thing by then.

Windows Mobile hasn't been a thing for four years now.

NervousPete · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 11:03

Adobe's pressuring of me to go the Creative Cloud rental route for Lightroom left a very sour taste in my mouth. Doubly so as in practice it means the release of lots of shoddy features essentially beta tested on users, leading to a very unstable program.

Because of this I take a very dim view of being nagged and pressured into things. I love Windows 7, it works for me and I figure on grimly holding on to it for as long as I possibly can. It's a relief that it appears Microsoft will stop finding ways to trick me into getting Windows 10 - something I may have gone for if there wasn't all the layers of skulking deceit surrounding it.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 11:09

NervousPete wrote:

Adobe's pressuring of me to go the Creative Cloud rental route for Lightroom left a very sour taste in my mouth. Doubly so as in practice it means the release of lots of shoddy features essentially beta tested on users, leading to a very unstable program.

Because of this I take a very dim view of being nagged and pressured into things. I love Windows 7, it works for me and I figure on grimly holding on to it for as long as I possibly can. It's a relief that it appears Microsoft will stop finding ways to trick me into getting Windows 10 - something I may have gone for if there wasn't all the layers of skulking deceit surrounding it.

What skulking deceit?

JohnCoffey · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 11:21

Microsoft definitely need to rethink a few things that's for sure. Its store is no place to play games and it's ridiculous how you can not even run a game in proper full screen mode (only borderless window full screen) and thus, is very hateful toward enthusiasts. It also has an always on Vsync, meaning Nvidia G-sync does not work (bitter pill after you paid a premium for it really). No multiple GPU support (well not properly, see also borderless window) and so on. A really poor start and it's a shame, because most of the games they are giving away free or selling are actually pretty decent, just completely marred by the store.

TBH I thought GFWL was bad but man, GFWL actually seems pretty slick compared to this awful store nonsense. I can't even find out how to install games where I want them and tbh? I don't think I even can.

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

Lonewolves wrote:

LewieP wrote:

I wonder if Windows Mobile will still be a thing by then.

Windows Mobile hasn't been a thing for four years now.

I guess I mean "I wonder if MS will still be pretending Windows Mobile is a thing".

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

I think he means that you actually mean Windows Phone.

Hearthly · **Joined:** 11th May, 2008 **Posts:** 13382

KovacsC wrote:

NervousPete wrote:

Adobe's pressuring of me to go the Creative Cloud rental route for Lightroom left a very sour taste in my mouth. Doubly so as in practice it means the release of lots of shoddy features essentially beta tested on users, leading to a very unstable program.

Because of this I take a very dim view of being nagged and pressured into things. I love Windows 7, it works for me and I figure on grimly holding on to it for as long as I possibly can. It's a relief that it appears Microsoft will stop finding ways to trick me into getting Windows 10 - something I may have gone for if there wasn't all the layers of skulking deceit surrounding it.

What skulking deceit?

One random gripe from me earlier in this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=876978#p876978

viewtopic.php?p=877013#p877013

----------

Quote:

Microsoft can fuck off with how aggressively they're trying to push Windows 10 onto PCs.

It did a completely unwanted background download of 3GB onto my daughter's laptop, which doesn't sound like much but it only has a 120GB SSD in it with less than 10GB of free space. (I had to use the disk cleanup tool to get that space back. Thanks!)

They've pushed out multiple 'Recommended' Windows 7 updates that have increasingly ramped up the 'in your face' aspect of the Windows 10 push, we've gone from an icon in the taskbar and the occasional small popup balloon, to a massive window slapbang in the middle of the screen with a big PRESS THIS BUTTON TO GET FREE WINDOWS 10 arrangement which makes an unwelcome appearance every time you turn a computer on.

They've also now replaced the normal Windows Update window with an UPGRADE TO WINDOWS 10 button, you have to click on a small 'Show other updates' link to get to the normal Windows updates, and this morning the only normal Windows Update being offered is 'Recommended' and looking into what it actually does (before installing it, because I don't trust Microsoft any more) is...... Install the Windows 10 app which apparently helps users to understand their Windows 10 upgrade options.

If any other software behaved like this you'd damn near call it malware.

The only PC I'm concerned about being properly infected with an upgrade to Windows 10 is Mrs Hearthly's PC, as she's got an Administrator account on there so it'll let her do it (she is under STRICT INSTRUCTION not to do this), all the other computers in the house Mrs Hearthly and Hearthly Jnr only have normal user accounts, and the upgrade to Windows 10 will fail if it's launched from a normal user account. (I know this because the bedroom media centre PC has about fifty eight million failed upgrade attempts logged on it, thanks to Hearthly Jnr.)

Obviously I have Administrator accounts on all the computers but unless Microsoft actually mind control me I won't be pressing the 'upgrade' button on any of them, but it's still annoying and it makes me want to stick with Windows 7 until it goes end of life in 2020 all the more.

myp · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 11:37

Cras wrote:

I think he means that you actually mean Windows Phone.

Technically correct! SLAM DUNK

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

Cras wrote:

I think he means that you actually mean Windows Phone.

Doesn't really matter does it, it's not like anyone is using it whatever it's called.

myp · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 11:40

LewieP wrote:

Cras wrote:

I think he means that you actually mean Windows Phone.

Doesn't really matter does it, it's not like anyone is using it whatever it's called.

Tell that to my colleague who sits behind me.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 11:43

Hearthly wrote:

KovacsC wrote:

NervousPete wrote:

Adobe's pressuring of me to go the Creative Cloud rental route for Lightroom left a very sour taste in my mouth. Doubly so as in practice it means the release of lots of shoddy features essentially beta tested on users, leading to a very unstable program.

Because of this I take a very dim view of being nagged and pressured into things. I love Windows 7, it works for me and I figure on grimly holding on to it for as long as I possibly can. It's a relief that it appears Microsoft will stop finding ways to trick me into getting Windows 10 - something I may have gone for if there wasn't all the layers of skulking deceit surrounding it.

What skulking deceit?

One random gripe from me earlier in this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=876978#p876978

viewtopic.php?p=877013#p877013

----------

Quote:

Microsoft can fuck off with how aggressively they're trying to push Windows 10 onto PCs.

It did a completely unwanted background download of 3GB onto my daughter's laptop, which doesn't sound like much but it only has a 120GB SSD in it with less than 10GB of free space. (I had to use the disk cleanup tool to get that space back. Thanks!)

They've pushed out multiple 'Recommended' Windows 7 updates that have increasingly ramped up the 'in your face' aspect of the Windows 10 push, we've gone from an icon in the taskbar and the occasional small popup balloon, to a massive window slapbang in the middle of the screen with a big PRESS THIS BUTTON TO GET FREE WINDOWS 10 arrangement which makes an unwelcome appearance every time you turn a computer on.

They've also now replaced the normal Windows Update window with an UPGRADE TO WINDOWS 10 button, you have to click on a small 'Show other updates' link to get to the normal Windows updates, and this morning the only normal Windows Update being offered is 'Recommended' and looking into what it actually does (before installing it, because I don't trust Microsoft any more) is...... Install the Windows 10 app which apparently helps users to understand their Windows 10 upgrade options.

If any other software behaved like this you'd damn near call it malware.

The only PC I'm concerned about being properly infected with an upgrade to Windows 10 is Mrs Hearthly's PC, as she's got an Administrator account on there so it'll let her do it (she is under STRICT INSTRUCTION not to do this), all the other computers in the house Mrs Hearthly and Hearthly Jnr only have normal user accounts, and the upgrade to Windows 10 will fail if it's launched from a normal user account. (I know this because the bedroom media centre PC has about fifty eight million failed upgrade attempts logged on it, thanks to Hearthly Jnr.)

Obviously I have Administrator accounts on all the computers but unless Microsoft actually mind control me I won't be pressing the 'upgrade' button on any of them, but it's still annoying and it makes me want to stick with Windows 7 until it goes end of life in 2020 all the more.

I disagree, you happy to support your opinion

KovacsC · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 11:44

Lonewolves wrote:

LewieP wrote:

Cras wrote:

I think he means that you actually mean Windows Phone.

Doesn't really matter does it, it's not like anyone is using it whatever it's called.

Tell that to my colleague who sits behind me.

I have to use it...

myp · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 11:47

KovacsC wrote:

Lonewolves wrote:

LewieP wrote:

Cras wrote:

I think he means that you actually mean Windows Phone.

Doesn't really matter does it, it's not like anyone is using it whatever it's called.

Tell that to my colleague who sits behind me.

I have to use it...

Why?

KovacsC · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 11:52

Lonewolves wrote:

KovacsC wrote:

Lonewolves wrote:

LewieP wrote:

Cras wrote:

I think he means that you actually mean Windows Phone.

Doesn't really matter does it, it's not like anyone is using it whatever it's called.

Tell that to my colleague who sits behind me.

I have to use it...

Why?

My works phone is Windows

myp · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 12:00

KovacsC wrote:

Lonewolves wrote:

KovacsC wrote:

Lonewolves wrote:

LewieP wrote:

Cras wrote:

I think he means that you actually mean Windows Phone.

Doesn't really matter does it, it's not like anyone is using it whatever it's called.

Tell that to my colleague who sits behind me.

I have to use it...

Why?

My works phone is Windows

Mine is Android.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

JohnCoffey wrote:

Microsoft definitely need to rethink a few things that's for sure. Its store is no place to play games and it's ridiculous how you can not even run a game in proper full screen mode (only borderless window full screen) and thus, is very hateful toward enthusiasts. It also has an always on Vsync, meaning Nvidia G-sync does not work (bitter pill after you paid a premium for it really). No multiple GPU support (well not properly, see also borderless window) and so on. A really poor start and it's a shame, because most of the games they are giving away free or selling are actually pretty decent, just completely marred by the store.

Shocking news: the Windows market of isn't just gamers. In fact, gamers are hardly any of it. This may help you understand Microsoft's relative priorities.

Windows 10 users: 300 m
Windows users: probably about 1.6 bn
Steam users: around 125 m
Gamers who don't have a Steam account: negligible

Gamers as a fraction of Windows users: about 8%

Also: Windows 10 (what we are discussing) and Windows Store / UWP (what you are complaining about) are only vaguely correlated, as we covered extensively earlier in this thread. This will be true as long as Windows 10 continues to run Win32 apps, which will be forever.

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

Gaming is an important component of Windows OSs, mind. There is a reason why MS have historically (ham-fistedly) attempted to use some aspect of gaming on Windows to push OS adoption, whether in the form of updated versions of DirectX being exclusive to newer versions of Windows, publishing a handful of games exclusive to the latest version of windows, or other gaming related features.

Yes it's a small portion of the Windows userbase as a whole, but it is a highly engaged portion of the userbase. People who are most invested into the ecosystem and who are typically fairly likely to be early adopters for Windows and related products and services.

Given that MS's current gaming push for Windows 10 adoption is centered around UWP stuff, it's entirely worth criticising it in that context. It is the focus of Microsoft's current efforts towards PC gaming, and it is currently not fit for purpose, by design.

I don't think UWP is entirely awful, but it's not currently suitable for what MS are using it for. I don't object to them using PC gaming to drive OS adoption, but they are currently doing so in such an incompetent manner that is is not a draw for me at all.

Regardless of how successful their efforts are currently, clearly Microsoft do think some kind of gaming initiative is critical to Windows. They didn't drop $2.5b on Mojang/Minecraft to help shift Xbox consoles.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

LewieP wrote:

Gaming is an important component of Windows OSs, mind.

It certainly matters more than the raw numbers suggest, but in terms of Microsoft's internal stack rank of priorities, do you imagine it's more important than (say) Word, or SQL Server, or Windows Server? I doubt it. Which is what the UWP gaming releases look like to me: half-baked stuff released by a team that wasn't given the time it needed to release something finished.

Quote:

Given that MS's current gaming push for Windows 10 adoption is centered around UWP stuff, it's entirely worth criticising it in that context. It is the focus of Microsoft's current efforts towards PC gaming, and it is currently not fit for purpose, by design.

But I suggest it's only tangentially related because you can take Win10 and never touch UWP, and indeed, that's what most people have done. And equally, there's nothing much compelling enough in Windows Store to encorage you upgrading to 10 if you were against it for some reason.

Quote:

Regardless of how successful their efforts are currently, clearly Microsoft do think some kind of gaming initiative is critical to Windows. They didn't drop $2.5b on Mojang/Minecraft to help shift Xbox consoles.

I suspect this is about education and owning a product that has an incredibly engaged user base of young kids exposed to something with a Microsoft logo that isn't hopelessly unhip, more than being about games per se.

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

Don't really disagree with any of what you've added there. Although I do very much imagine that MS either have or are putting together strategies to use gaming to get as many Windows 7/8 users over to 10 as possible, in addition to having other bigger departments working on using other products and services to achieve the same (primarily enterprise and servers, as you've referred to). Strategies beyond just "here are some UWP games".

Hearthly · **Joined:** 11th May, 2008 **Posts:** 13382

KovacsC wrote:

Hearthly wrote:

KovacsC wrote:

Win 7 will be dominating, until they pull the plug for support.

2020, then?

edit: It is out of support now. Extended support will be 2020

I would imagine folks moving off it in the next 12 months

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lif ... indows%207

Sorry when I said 2020 that was in the full knowledge extended support lasted until 2020

(I was being a bit glib about it, but I have referred to it many times earlier in this thread.)

'Out of support' is a disingenuous term IMO, extended support is plenty good enough for folks who want to stay on Windows 7, they're not exactly going to be expecting shiny new features at this stage.

If MS stick to their guns and make Windows 10 cost money for upgrades after the July cut-off date, I think that'll basically end people going for upgrades, and it'll be new sales only - it'll be interesting to see what the userbase is at that point, as there's still an awful of Windows 7 out there.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Hearthly wrote:

If MS stick to their guns and make Windows 10 cost money for upgrades after the July cut-off date, I think that'll basically end people going for upgrades, and it'll be new sales only - it'll be interesting to see what the userbase is at that point, as there's still an awful of Windows 7 out there.

Another way of looking at this is: after a year of escalatingly strong nag screens, everyone who was going to upgrade will have already done so, so ending the free upgrade offer will make very little difference.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

I might have to face up to the daunting task of getting bootcamp to do a Won10 upgrade at some point soon.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

I like 'won10'

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

Does support for Win7 until 2010 include support for stuff like the bundled version of IE? Even if the OS is secure, I could imagine people would want to abandon an insecure browser (even though more people would likely go for Chrome or whatever on Win7 than upgrade to Win10 just for a new browser).

Hearthly · **Joined:** 11th May, 2008 **Posts:** 13382

LewieP wrote:

Does support for Win7 until 2010 include support for stuff like the bundled version of IE? Even if the OS is secure, I could imagine people would want to abandon an insecure browser (even though more people would likely go for Chrome or whatever on Win7 than upgrade to Win10 just for a new browser).

Security updates for IE will be included as part of Extended Support. (My old XP machine was getting security updates for whatever the last IE version was for XP whilst in Extended Support, and I can't imagine MS changing that model.)

Extended Support is mostly like normal mainstream support.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 19:44

Hearthly wrote:

LewieP wrote:

Does support for Win7 until 2010 include support for stuff like the bundled version of IE? Even if the OS is secure, I could imagine people would want to abandon an insecure browser (even though more people would likely go for Chrome or whatever on Win7 than upgrade to Win10 just for a new browser).

Security updates for IE will be included as part of Extended Support. (My old XP machine was getting security updates for whatever the last IE version was for XP whilst in Extended Support, and I can't imagine MS changing that model.)

Extended Support is mostly like normal mainstream support.

Not necessarily. No more patches

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

KovacsC wrote:

Hearthly wrote:

Extended Support is mostly like normal mainstream support.

Not necessarily. No more patches

But that's nonsense. Windows XP left mainstream support in 14 April 2009. Look at all of these patches.

Hearthly · **Joined:** 11th May, 2008 **Posts:** 13382

KovacsC wrote:

Not necessarily. No more patches

The only meaningful difference is the lack of nonsecurity hotfix support, and even then I don't think most people would notice.

Attachment:

extendo.JPG

KovacsC · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2016 20:05

i stand corrected...

Hearthly · **Joined:** 11th May, 2008 **Posts:** 13382

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

KovacsC wrote:

Hearthly wrote:

Extended Support is mostly like normal mainstream support.

Not necessarily. No more patches

But that's nonsense. Windows XP left mainstream support in 14 April 2009. Look at all of these patches.

I kept an XP machine running for over a year after even Extended Support ended. (Obviously there was nothing important on it in case it got pwned.)

Prior to Extended Support ending it got updates for all sorts of stuff all the time, and even after extended support ended it received a handful of security updates and suchlike.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Typically (officially) you end up only getting security updates, not bugfixes, but they evaluate the importance of bugfixes too and put them out if appropriate.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Also don't forget that XP downloading an update doesn't mean that XP is being updated. iE, .Net, Office etc all have different support timelines.

Jem · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2016 10:37

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Hearthly wrote:

If MS stick to their guns and make Windows 10 cost money for upgrades after the July cut-off date, I think that'll basically end people going for upgrades, and it'll be new sales only - it'll be interesting to see what the userbase is at that point, as there's still an awful of Windows 7 out there.

Another way of looking at this is: after a year of escalatingly strong nag screens, everyone who was going to upgrade will have already done so, so ending the free upgrade offer will make very little difference.

I have carefully and deliberately only installed updates that aren't related to Windows 10 on my machine for as long as possible because although I do want to upgrade eventually, I don't want the nags, and I haven't backed up my laptop in ages and have too much work etc to risk it going wrong. I suppose I best get a move on. :DD

(Of course the irony is that all that time I've wasted going through individual updates manually could have been spent doing backups and the upgrade...)

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2016 10:39

Jem wrote:

I haven't backed up my laptop in ages

Jem · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2016 10:39

I know, I know.

GazChap · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2016 10:58

Am I the only one that just turned off the notification icon for GWX and therefore had no nags?

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2016 11:07

Perhaps. I just installed Windows 10.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Grim... wrote:

Jem wrote:

I haven't backed up my laptop in ages

Worse!

Jem wrote:

I haven't backed up my laptop in ages and have too much work etc to risk it going wrong

Be Excellent To Each Other

Windows 10
So who was brave enough??

Who is online

Be Excellent To Each Other

Windows 10 So who was brave enough??

Who is online

Windows 10
So who was brave enough??