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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 23:23 
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Jesus wept

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/9 ... 5227459593




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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 16:52 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Jesus wept


He had a bad experience with referendums too.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 17:22 
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I’m incredibly anxious about a lot of other things at the moment, which always piques my upset at stuff like this, but I am so, so annoyed by the continuing, decades old acceptance of absolute shits treating anyone with less privilege/money/social standing like dirt on the basis that they are funny old sorts of folk, and they are ‘a character’. So much British comedy is built on the basis of ‘silly old rich person sneers at those with less’ but paints them as a loveable, out of touch person, rather than contemptuous twit, and that’s carried right on through to politics. The stereotype English Upper Class eccentric is seen as laughable and harmless, and then you have individuals like Rees-Mogg and Johnson that use this as a cloak to be evil bastards.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:52 
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Gogmagog

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So, uh, taking back control, eh? No customs union. This is a farce.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:57 
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MaliA wrote:
So, uh, taking back control, eh? No customs union. This is a farce.


So we're back to having a border in Northern Ireland. It's almost as if they're making it up as they go along to get the right headline in the right-wing papers and keep a minority of backbenchers happy. Oh, hang on...


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 18:44 
Filthy Junkie Bitch

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Note that they haven’t ruled out an absolute customs and worldwide tariff free trade utopia for the UK. At that point the issue of customs is an issue that they are placing the issue of a border into the EU court.

They’re not thinking of that though.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 19:20 
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ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
Note that they haven’t ruled out an absolute customs and worldwide tariff free trade utopia for the UK..


The farmers would love that.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 19:30 
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The government's own studies suggest the strongest Brexit regions will be the hardest hit (Guardian report), but nobody comes out particuarly well. So of course we're going to carry on regardless.

This stuff isn't good for us. Here's a Giphy of bears partying to cheer us up:

Giphy "bears partying":
https://media3.giphy.com/media/vO7eadDFEZm80/giphy-loop.mp4


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 19:30 
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Not the bears I was expecting, Giphy.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 19:43 
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Kern wrote:
Not the bears I was expecting, Giphy.

Just admit you're a furry and we can all get on with our lives.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 19:51 
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Kern wrote:
The government's own studies suggest the strongest Brexit regions will be the hardest hit

Maybe there's some truth in the Just World fallacy after all.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 19:51 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Kern wrote:
The government's own studies suggest the strongest Brexit regions will be the hardest hit

Maybe there's some truth in the Just World fallacy after all.


:DD


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 19:58 
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I mean, I know it's mean spirited, but I don't have a lot left other than this faded, ragged schadenfreude.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 20:13 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
I mean, I know it's mean spirited, but I don't have a lot left other than this faded, ragged schadenfreude.


It seems every political conversation I have these days turns Brexit and dies. And to think we used to worry about Jacqui Smith.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 20:46 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
I mean, I know it's mean spirited, but I don't have a lot left other than this faded, ragged schadenfreude.

Yeah it's a really fucking shitty attitude.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 20:48 
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I deserve all I get though I suppose for living somewhere that more people voted leave.

Get fucked.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 21:03 
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markg wrote:
I deserve all I get though I suppose for living somewhere that more people voted leave.

Get fucked.

It's no different than me living in a place where we voted remain. We're still leaving. :shrug:

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 21:08 
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markg wrote:
I deserve all I get though I suppose for living somewhere that more people voted leave.

Get fucked.


Having schadenfreude for those leavers bitten by their own pet snake doesn't mean you feel that others in the same areas deserve what they get. In any way at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 21:22 
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Cras wrote:
markg wrote:
I deserve all I get though I suppose for living somewhere that more people voted leave.

Get fucked.


Having schadenfreude for those leavers bitten by their own pet snake doesn't mean you feel that others in the same areas deserve what they get. In any way at all.

Except that the posts preceding it suggest that the schaudenfreude is being felt for residents of geographical areas rather than the individuals who did, or did not, vote for the change.

And of course it’s far more complex than that. Especially in low affluence areas that may have already been given a rough deal, falsely and unfairly sold an idea of change and fairness, with false bogeymen writ large on the front of shit newspapers. Class, education, affluence... they all played a part, but the shit media preyed on the fears and inequalities towards those with less (less money, less power, and usually less of a voice), and those will be tge people who suffer the most. Poor people in low affluence areas.

And it’s hard to feel scaudenfreude when those who have the money and the power, and those who pushed the lies, will be completely fine.

Xenophobia, racism... they’re evils in the world, and they played a massive part. But though I am angry at those that bought into the fear and hatred, I’m far more angry towards those who sell it, and they are not these people.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 21:26 
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Feeling anger at the villains of the piece and feeling schadenfreude at the foolish who made it happen aren't in the least mutually exclusive.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 21:45 
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Cras wrote:
Feeling anger at the villains of the piece and feeling schadenfreude at the foolish who made it happen aren't in the least mutually exclusive.

Oh, of course, but that was just a postscript to the point that the piece being discussed is about geographical areas and those that live in them coming off worse. I think MarkG’s position that it’s a shitty attitude to declare a feeling of schadenfreude for a geographical area suffering from the effects of Brexit because that ‘area’ voted for it does not direct that sentiment to the individuals at all, rather the whole area and those that live in it.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 23:11 
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Cras wrote:
Having schadenfreude for those leavers bitten by their own pet snake doesn't mean you feel that others in the same areas deserve what they get. In any way at all.

For the avoidance of doubt and before anyone else wilfully misconstrues me, this is exactly what I meant.

markg wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
I mean, I know it's mean spirited, but I don't have a lot left other than this faded, ragged schadenfreude.

Yeah it's a really fucking shitty attitude.

Yes that's why it's "shameful."

Mimi wrote:
And of course it’s far more complex than that. Especially in low affluence areas that may have already been given a rough deal, falsely and unfairly sold an idea of change and fairness, with false bogeymen writ large on the front of shit newspapers. Class, education, affluence... they all played a part, but the shit media preyed on the fears and inequalities towards those with less (less money, less power, and usually less of a voice), and those will be tge people who suffer the most. Poor people in low affluence areas.

This is extremely patronising.

These were adults of voting age who chose to vote for Leave. They could have recoiled from Farage's naked racism, but they did not. They could have thought about Jo Cox's murder and what it implied about dark forces of nationalism and xenophobia, but they did not. They could have taken note of Johnson and Gove's naked political opportunism, but they did not. Instead, they chose to swallow the lies, without challenging the paper-thin arguments of the Leave campaigns. And now, they absolutely can be and should be held responsible for that decision they took -- as adults. They don't get to have their hair ruffled and forgiven because they were uninformed or mislead. There was plenty of hard truth going around that they chose to ignore when they stood in the voting booth and put their cross next to Leave.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 23:14 
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There was a news story a bit back where everyone was lolling at some town that mostly voted leave because someone there was asking for a special exemption because Brexit was going to wreck their industry. They were talking about the place as though it were a single individual.

It didn't seem to occur to any of them that the people desperately proposing this unlikely lifeline might actually have been amongst the significant numbers who voted to remain. When I saw the councillor being interviewed it was clear that he was.

And if we're going to go down that road then the people who deserve just as much of the pain for this fucking mess is anyone who has a Tory MP.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 23:20 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Cras wrote:
Having schadenfreude for those leavers bitten by their own pet snake doesn't mean you feel that others in the same areas deserve what they get. In any way at all.

For the avoidance of doubt and before anyone else wilfully misconstrues me, this is exactly what I meant.

markg wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
I mean, I know it's mean spirited, but I don't have a lot left other than this faded, ragged schadenfreude.

Yeah it's a really fucking shitty attitude.

Yes that's why it's "shameful."

Mimi wrote:
And of course it’s far more complex than that. Especially in low affluence areas that may have already been given a rough deal, falsely and unfairly sold an idea of change and fairness, with false bogeymen writ large on the front of shit newspapers. Class, education, affluence... they all played a part, but the shit media preyed on the fears and inequalities towards those with less (less money, less power, and usually less of a voice), and those will be tge people who suffer the most. Poor people in low affluence areas.

This is extremely patronising.

These were adults of voting age who chose to vote for Leave. They could have recoiled from Farage's naked racism, but they did not. They could have thought about Jo Cox's murder and what it implied about dark forces of nationalism and xenophobia, but they did not. They could have taken note of Johnson and Gove's naked political opportunism, but they did not. Instead, they chose to swallow the lies, without challenging the paper-thin arguments of the Leave campaigns. And now, they absolutely can be and should be held responsible for that decision they took -- as adults. They don't get to have their hair ruffled and forgiven because they were uninformed or mislead. There was plenty of hard truth going around that they chose to ignore when they stood in the voting booth and put their cross next to Leave.

When lots of people do something then it's pretty legitimate to examine the reasons why beyond saying that it's just because they're all awful people and not as good as you. I suppose it's also patronising to try and understand why some areas have higher rates of crime or drug and alcohol addiction. These are also just personal choices.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 23:34 
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It may be patronising or it may be correct in some cases. I suspect both are true in varying cases. Saying simply that they are adults means nothing. Of course they are adults, that adds no valuable point, unless you for some reason thought I believed that there were children voting? Not sure what you meant there. I don’t know why you’re talking about hair ruffling, either, but your rhetoric aside nobody has suggested that the people who voted for Brexit are most deserving of pity. Nobody is mollycoddling thosecwho have voted out of xenophobia, spite, and ridiculous notions of the importance of taking back control of bananas, or passport colours, or anything else.

But as you well know, MarkG was saying the shitty attitude was for people who seemed to feel glee that some areas (which, as I think I understand, MarkG may live in?) and their inhabitants will suffer, because they deserve the harsher end of all the fallout.

Hits to infrastructure, jobs and everything else will affect all those people who live in those areas, regardless of which box they put their X in.

And honestly, I don’t want to see anyone suffer. Especially those who are already poor and suffering. Especially those in low affluent areas that wanted to remain, but who live in areas that voted leave, perhaps in areas that will be hardest hit.

Are people getting what they deserve? The people that spread misinformation and hate won’t be. The Remainers living in low-affluence areas won’t be. I guess it’s up to an individual’s own beliefs and morals whether they believe that the worst affected leave voters will be or not, but I wouldn’t feel ok being in a (relatively) comfortable position deciding who is most deserving of the hard times ahead. I would doubt it was MarkG, though. But then, I don’t think I could feel smugness at that thought for anyone, right now, however they voted.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 23:43 
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Thanks Mimi. I think what annoys me most is that it's a pretty common attitude and one that I have absolutely no fucking doubt whatsoever will be used to justify complete indifference over the effects of the fallout where it affects poorer areas where a majority voted leave.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 23:50 
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I think that’s my major worry, also. That towns will be brushed aside with disdain as they suffer the worst because they ‘brought it about themselves’.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:50 
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We're not going to win a second referendum if we continually look down on people who voted Leave. For example, I spoke to one at the weekend who said he was just sick of being called 'thick': he said he voted because he didn't like the direction of the EU and felt that a lot had changed since 1976 without his consent and we went through a standard list of complaints about the EU.

I think the vast majority of leave voters were those with no strong views or interest in the matter, and who were convinced by the arguments, however empty, of people they trusted such as Mr Johnson. Now things are falling apart and he's being held responsible for it, it offers an opportunity for the remain side to win them over, but if we keep ourselves apart from them and disdain them we're not going to get anywhere.

As for schadenfreuede, well, at times like this there is a certain gallows humour which provides a release but needs to be vented cautiously to avoid alienation.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:57 
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INFINITE POWAH

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:this:

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 Post subject: Re: Taking the Brexit
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:59 
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Yes, :this:, and very well put, Kern.

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