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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 16:59 
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Bamba wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Bamba wrote:
Frankly I don't understand your position in the slightest

Really? Have you actually given it any thought, or are you in too much of a hurry to get to the keyboard?

What, am I typing too fast for you? Seriously, what does this even mean? That if I don't agree with you it can only be because I just haven't thought about it enough? 8)

The latter. Nothing I'm saying is complicated. If it helps, it eventually boils down to "some people enjoy different things to others", or "why should the vocal people get to say what should change and what shouldn't". Oddly, it eventually comes back to bridleways. But that's just me.

Bamba wrote:
Grim... wrote:
If it helps, it's really, really good ;)

I thought you yourself weren't actually playing it? That's not a dig, I thought it was just the Grimlet who was playing it.

Indeed so. He says it's the best game he's ever played*, and it keeps him the fuck quiet, so it's really good that way, too.

Bamba wrote:
Grim... wrote:
They're entitled to shit all. All they have to do is not fucking buy it! There's no better way to make a point to the publisher than to not spend money on the fucking thing. There are umpteen other games to play that don't want your money, and if they sell loads more copies than games with MTX in then MTX will go away really, really quickly.

People are always entitled to opinions about stuff in their sphere of interest and claiming otherwise is flat out bonkers.

Absolutely they're entitled to an opinion, but they're presenting it as fact. "Everybody hates this. No-one wants loot creates."
I really fucking disliked Alien: Covenant and I happen to love the shit out of the Xenomorph franchise, but I don't feel I have any right to demand that Ridley Scott changes the movie, or that he shouldn't be allowed to make any more.

Bamba wrote:
That's always true, but in this specific case the fact that not complaining will normalise this crap for future games is more than justification enough. Yes, people can not buy the game but sadly there's enough idiots out there--especially when it comes to fanboy bait like Star Wars--who will close their eyes and make their excuses and stump up for it anyway so that protest in itself isn't likely to be effective enough.

Well, sorry, but that's tough shit. Maybe the people that enjoy this gameplay mechanic and enjoy Star Wars too get to keep this one? They can not buy the next one instead.

Bamba wrote:
And if that simply meant, for instance, that EA got rewarded for making a single shite game then yeah, hell-mend the idiots that bought it and that would be the end of that. But the fact that we've even got to the stage where you're able to pull out an industry standard abbreviation for bloody micro-transactions shows how pervasive this has become in general. None of this is happening in a bubble and even people who aren't and won't buy this one game have more than enough reason to worry about the direction it's dragging us all.

A slightly different (more general) point here, but it's not inconceivable for the opposite direction to MTX (or DLC, although the distinction is blurry) to be 'really expensive initial purchase prices'. Right now, I (and you, I wager) play a lot of free mobile games. I'm really enjoying one called Golf Clash, for example, and it's completely free - you can buy jewels that help you get better clubs and stuff, but you can get them by just playing the game enough (or by just waiting for the free chests to come in, I guess).
Thing is, this game is only free because 1% of people (or whatever) pay for those gems - and that's a model I'm more than okay with. Let Johnny Richman pay the devs and have his shiny stuff, I'm down with that if it means I get the game cheaper.

Bamba wrote:
apologies dude. :kiss:

No worries :kiss:

Bamba wrote:
Grim... wrote:
I could see people being angry if they bought the game and then suddenly it was changed to something else, that's a shitty thing to do. And, wouldn't you know it - that's exactly what they've caused to happen.

Technically this is true but it's not like they've removed swathes of functionality or something, they've changed the economy surrounding the functionality to make it less of a piss take. And unless there's evidence of masses of people who thought the original balance of the game was brilliant fun then it's a weak argument in this specific case.

Why masses? Why not one?

* I have watched him play, and I might give the singleplayer a go at some point, as it looks fun. The other thing I've noticed is that you get skill matched (unless you turn that off) so you can't really 'pay to win', as you'll always be playing people with similar loadouts. The other thing is that the Grimlet is kicking the shit out of everyone with the basic trooper and pistol, so :shrug:.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 17:00 
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Christ, that's long. I won't be offended if you don't reply to every line :S

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 17:00 
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Curiosity wrote:
Zardoz wrote:
I'm siding with Grim... as he regularly heals me in KF2.

Grim... plays as a Medic???

Yeah, it's in a game where you have to kill a load of zombies. You should try it some night, you might like it.

...

He does?!

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 17:30 
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SavyGamer

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EA's stock price has dropped by 7%
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/17/wall-st ... -game.html


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 17:31 
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Grim... wrote:
"why should the vocal people get to say what should change and what shouldn't"


Well, in this case, it's not just about people being vocal but the sheer number of them saying it. EA are in the business of selling things--not just this thing but other things in the future presumably--so when a large number of your customers and/or potential future customers go fucking apeshit about something then you take it into account. I'm not really sure what else you're suggesting should happen? There's an implication behind this and other things you've said that there's a load of loot box lovers quietly weeping to themselves as the ravening hordes steal all their fun but where are you getting that from?

Grim... wrote:
Absolutely they're entitled to an opinion, but they're presenting it as fact. "Everybody hates this. No-one wants loot creates."
I really fucking disliked Alien: Covenant and I happen to love the shit out of the Xenomorph franchise, but I don't feel I have any right to demand that Ridley Scott changes the movie, or that he shouldn't be allowed to make any more.


You do have the right to demand, it's just equally his right to ignore you completely if he sees fit. It's also far from a perfect comparison given that Ridley Scott isn't charging you to enter the cinema then charging you again to skip the bits of the film you don't like. This whole thing is very unique to the medium of gaming and I don't think comparing it to anything else is all that useful. People want to enjoy games. They want to enjoy Star Wars games. When literally the only company in the world that's allowed to make a Star Wars game releases something that people feel is predatory I think they're right to complain.

Grim... wrote:
Well, sorry, but that's tough shit. Maybe the people that enjoy this gameplay mechanic and enjoy Star Wars too get to keep this one? They can not buy the next one instead.


This just takes me back to two of my main points here: (1) does this load of people who genuinely enjoy paying for loot boxes actually exists and (2) if no one complains this time round then there won't be a next game with no such horrible mechanics to be skipped because it'll be normalised and then stuffed into everything. This isn't just an argument about this game, it's an argument about all such games to come.

Grim... wrote:
Thing is, this game is only free because 1% of people (or whatever) pay for those gems - and that's a model I'm more than okay with. Let Johnny Richman pay the devs and have his shiny stuff, I'm down with that if it means I get the game cheaper.


I feel this is a different thing and I'm not generally against proper freemium games. If you get the game free up front then of course the dev has to, and absolutely should, monetise it elsewhere. However this is a full price game that's also got extra payment nonsense stuffed in and that can GTFF. Similarly, ads in free mobile games are fair enough but imagine a flashing 'punch the monkey banner' across your TV during your next Endor death match, surely you wouldn't put up with that? The other crux is how these mechanics are allowed to impact the balance of the game for everyone, not just the whales. It's impossible to prove of course but it's felt that, for instance, the design of BF2 here was tilted towards encouraging buying loot boxes by making the unlock conditions for Vader et al otherwise near prohibitive. So that's not just lazy Mr Whale subsidising your experience, that's the experience being made more onerous because they want you to also buy this stuff (or to encourage Mr Whale to do it more and quicker at least). All players of the game are impacted by this stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:02 
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Quickly:

No-one forced me to watch Alien: Covenant, but no-one is forcing anyone to buy loot boxes. At least BF2 didn't take a steaming [COVENANT RANT DELETED]
Main point 1: some people obviously like loot boxes or they wouldn't spend loads of money on them.
Main point 2: is somewhat far-fetched. If people hate the mechanic as much as you think, they won't buy the game.
Freemium games are different (hence the qualifier "A slightly different (more general) point here"), but the cost of making AAA games (and probably others) keeps going up, so something has to give somewhere, and unless someone else comes up with a clever idea, I'm down with this method.
Finally, again, if Vader is too much money, don't buy him. Oh, you "deserve" Vader because you're you*? Get the fuck out of here.


* Not you you.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:09 
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I'm surprised there's been no obvious GTA comparisons. GTA Online is incredibly geared towards making people pay real money to avoid having to grind in-game to get the cool shit, to the point where Rockstar openly admit how much of a fortune they're making out of it, and it's undoubtedly slowed down any release of sequels. But that's just seemingly fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:10 
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Grim... wrote:
Main point 1: some people obviously like loot boxes or they wouldn't spend loads of money on them.
Main point 2: is somewhat far-fetched. If people hate the mechanic as much as you think, they won't buy the game.
Freemium games are different (hence the qualifier "A slightly different (more general) point here"), but the cost of making AAA games (and probably others) keeps going up, so something has to give somewhere, and unless someone else comes up with a clever idea, I'm down with this method.
Finally, again, if Vader is too much money, don't buy him. Oh, you "deserve" Vader because you're you*? Get the fuck out of here.


* Not you you.


It doesn't matter whether people “like” lootboxes, the tactic itself is scum and takes advantage of purchasers. Direct sales of items via MTX can still support fund games. There’s no reason to defend the gambling-esq mechanics being attached to the purchase.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:11 
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Cras wrote:
I'm surprised there's been no obvious GTA comparisons. GTA Online is incredibly geared towards making people pay real money to avoid having to grind in-game to get the cool shit, to the point where Rockstar openly admit how much of a fortune they're making out of it, and it's undoubtedly slowed down any release of sequels. But that's just seemingly fine.

I don't like it either, but Rockstar probably enjoys a lot of "gamer capital" that EA just don't have because of their continual shady behaviour.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:12 
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So is the objection more to the random chance aspect than the pay money aspect? If Vader was an outright £10 would folks be less bothered?

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:13 
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Cras wrote:
So is the objection more to the random chance aspect than the pay money aspect? If Vader was an outright £10 would folks be less bothered?

A lot less bothered, yes. That's a finite amount and you know what you're getting. Whether it's value for money is up to you to decide.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:15 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Cras wrote:
So is the objection more to the random chance aspect than the pay money aspect? If Vader was an outright £10 would folks be less bothered?

A lot less bothered, yes. That's a finite amount and you know what you're getting. Whether it's value for money is up to you to decide.


I wonder if the complaining crowd at large would agree with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:15 
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Lord Humongous

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Star Wars Battlefront Micro-transactions: No one's Force-ing you®

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:19 
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Zardoz wrote:
Star Wars Battlefront Micro-transactions: No one's Force-ing you®

/thread

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Grim... wrote:
I wish Craster had left some girls for the rest of us.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:20 
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Cras wrote:
So is the objection more to the random chance aspect than the pay money aspect? If Vader was an outright £10 would folks be less bothered?

No-one seems to agree on what the actual objection is, but I think there's just several.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:22 
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I think rockstar have been really quite shitty to a significant group of players with the initial “buy this game, there will be shit loads of dlc” and then releasing precisely no single player dlc due to mp having a higher gdp than The phillipines. Read the comments under their weekly gta online Facebook posts for evidence of the objections here.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:23 
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Rude Belittler

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Zardoz wrote:
I'm siding with Grim... as he regularly heals me in KF2.


Liar! Grim.. never heals anyone in KF2 (except by accident)


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:24 
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Also Rockstar are quite transparent with "here's some in-game currency which is actually US dollars in game so actually makes a semblance of sense." Plus you don't have to spin a roulette wheel to see if you get the huge apartment you want.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:27 
Filthy Junkie Bitch

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Lonewolves wrote:
Also Rockstar are quite transparent with "here's some in-game currency which is actually US dollars in game so actually makes a semblance of sense." Plus you don't have to spin a roulette wheel to see if you get the huge apartment you want.

No, although it’s now a game of spin the roulette wheel to see if you can actually ever get to your apartment without being blown up by jets in open play.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:29 
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ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
I think rockstar have been really quite shitty to a significant group of players with the initial “buy this game, there will be shit loads of dlc” and then releasing precisely no single player dlc due to mp having a higher gdp than The phillipines. Read the comments under their weekly gta online Facebook posts for evidence of the objections here.


Lol get sum friends, nubz.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:29 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Also Rockstar are quite transparent with "here's some in-game currency which is actually US dollars in game so actually makes a semblance of sense." Plus you don't have to spin a roulette wheel to see if you get the huge apartment you want.

Although they do want to add an in-game casino, which you'd play on with in-game money.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:30 
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Rockstar actually did an interview about the the lack of SP DLC last month: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/ ... nline.aspx

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:31 
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Grim... wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Also Rockstar are quite transparent with "here's some in-game currency which is actually US dollars in game so actually makes a semblance of sense." Plus you don't have to spin a roulette wheel to see if you get the huge apartment you want.

Although they do want to add an in-game casino, which you'd play on with in-game money.

Again I'm kind of ok with this. It's a game for adults that features drinking, violence and sex. Gambling isn't really any worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:32 
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BF is, of course, a game for adults that involves murdering. Constant, unabated murdering.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:36 
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It should be noted that people are actively bitching about GTA:Online, and would see it shut down to get their SP DLC. They've accused Rockstar of "stripping the SP of content and purposely crippling it". I asked what they had stripped out (this was on Reddit) and the answer was something like "They're not putting the cars and guns they make for GTA:O into SP". Then I asked how they'd crippled it and didn't get an answer.

I guess I do agree with them - if Rockstar did promise DLC (and did they? I've not seen anything (but that doesn't mean jack, I haven't looked)) and then didn't deliver that's arguably reason enough to get your money back - and a lot worse (IMO) than what EA has done.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:36 
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Cras wrote:
BF is, of course, a game for adults that involves murdering. Constant, unabated murdering.

As we've already covered in this thread, I think it's much more likely parents will buy a Star Wars game for their children than a GTA one. Plus are 16 year olds adults now?


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:37 
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Cras wrote:
BF is, of course, a game for adults that involves murdering. Constant, unabated murdering.

Yes, but different because Star Wars.

[edit] See?

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:37 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Cras wrote:
BF is, of course, a game for adults that involves murdering. Constant, unabated murdering.

As we've already covered in this thread, I think it's much more likely parents will buy a Star Wars game for their children than a GTA one.

Plenty of kids play GTA.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:40 
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Re: PEGI ratings - I know shops aren't allowed to sell kids a game if the kid is younger than the age rating, but are kids allowed to play them if someone else buys them?

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Battlefront
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 18:41 
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Yes, absolutely they are

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