Be Excellent To Each Other

Obviously the situations are always different, but white criminals are treated differently (ie mentally ill) whereas black people are just evil. Even Wilson was quoted in the indictment hearing as saying "it looked like a devil" about Brown. He didn't see him as a human being.

I actually took offence that you imply that you refer to every US police officer using the absolute heading 'they' and used two extreme examples to define their behavior as a whole. I've no personal connection with 'them' but that blanket treatment assists no one. Unless it has been determined that all cops are murderers?

Incidentally my reading of Ferguson extends to little further than this thread and links from there so I have nothing to add other than I agree it all feels a bit hokey.

In wider terms though, I do feel uneasy about the naming of the officer from the outset. I think arming US police as a whole was a bad decision but once you've escalated things to that degree you can't sensibly reverse it without putting more lives in jeopardy. But when you give someone a tool to use in the furtherance of their job, for the theoretical purpose of protecting lives (including their own) conducting the investigation in public helps no one (even accepting the initial Ferguson reaction).

Why? Because in future the logical reaction is to imply even further doubt in the persons head next time he is called upon to maybe use his gun. In this regard I think we have it right, where although the Menezes and Duggan inquests (the only ones I can think off offhand) were public, the individuals are anonymous until the point of decision to prosecute arises.

If these were two unusual incidents then you'd probably have a point.

Separate Michael Brown thread?

You've convinced me. Every white US police officer doesn't see it as going on shift, he sees the rest of his day as a game of black man duck hunt. Glad we cleared that up.

Dangerously close to saying 'not all police officers' here. Once is too often. It's happened with alarming frequency over the last 40 years. It's definitely a trend, and saying 'not all police officers' is unhelpful.

Does it really happen all that often? What about compared to every other moment of the police person's life? What about every other case they take on? Stats etc

Anyway, I came here to post this. I made it through about 5 minutes. It hurts trying to keep up with the logical connections.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32mxZxv3dYM

Thread split please

Carry on!

Footage of the Tamir Rice incident has been released. This is the 12 year old boy who was reported as "waving around a gun, probably fake" (it was a BB gun) who was they shot by police. The video is chilling. The police don't appear to call out, to hesitate, to think -- the car rolls up and a couple of seconds later Tamir is dead.

(Nothing graphic in it but very disturbing.)

Video shows Cleveland officer shooting 12-year-old Tamir Rice within seconds - The Washington Post

I watched the video and it's very strange. The police officer clearly thought that he was going to get shot so reacted quickly and possibly without thinking. He also wasn't told that the gun was probably fake.

It's a horrible situation but if you're going to give police officers guns, you're going to have to expect them to use them. Sometimes with horrible consequences.

Looks more like a drive-by than an effort at policing.

Deadly Force, in Black and White - ProPublica



That's ~400 police shootings per year. The only data that exists on which ones were deemed excessive force is collected on a volunteered basis by a tiny handful of police departments. There is absolutely no US-wide tracking of statistics of appropriate use of police deadly force. That, in itself, makes you ponder just how accountable the police are for their actions.

Not sure if there was another Policeman there, odd that he was on his own so only his word against a dead guy.

Also watched him on TV he said after giving chasing he shot at the guy a lot as he ran towards him missing most times before hitting him in the head when he was 8ft away.

Not for one minute supporting his actions, but I got the impression he wasn't very confident or good with a gun. His side of it was that this guy was huge and he was worried he had a gun, I got the impression he was believed the guy was going to kill him, but it all looks to be not right somehow.

I don't want to wade into this argument because I don't really know the facts, but I do know that it's really difficult to hit anything with a handgun - especially if you're panicked and the target is moving.

Over fifteen feet and you might as well be aiming at something "over there, ish".

I'm sensing an interesting backstory there, Grim....

Afraid not, sir. Cans and targets was all I ever shot at.

I agree with Grim... Now I think about it. I'm an ace shot normally but using a hand gun in a range proved to be most difficult.

And I was relaxed and calm too.

I hope this thread has taken a satirical turn.

I would agree as well, I once shot a 9mm pistol at a range in Thailand it was harder than I thought to hit anything! I did better with the M16 (converted to fire .22 bullets)

Surly a Policeman would have training and be a better shot with a pistol than any of us though?

I can head shot Odd Job from the other side of Facility in Pistols Only on Goldeneye. That probably counts for something.

Serious question:

Of the Grand Jury thought there wasn't enough evidence to take to trial for it not to be a farce, then, although not the popular decision, isn't it the right decision? Is that how it works?

It is, however normally the prosecutor would be wanting a trial and so they wouldn't get given all the evidence they did here. The prosecutor would just cherry pick the bits of evidence in order to get an indictment. The way it has been handled is very unusual. From what I understand what would normally happen in these circumstances is that the prosecutor would drop the case before it even got to the grand jury stage.

What I don't understand is what purpose this stage of the proceedings actually serves given that it prevents so very few trials taking place.

Presumably so, but no matter how much you practise they're still wildly inaccurate. Just watch the pistol shooting competitions at the olympics - these folk are the best in the work, using specialised equipment.

I had the opposite reaction. When I had a go I was struck by how easy it was for someone who had never even held a handgun before to hit the targets even at some distance. Not saying I was any good or anything but perhaps my expectations were different. It's a lot easier than darts, put it that way. Surely the police are trained to fire their guns within the effective range. What did all this have to do with it again?

I am an even worse shot with a handgun than I am with a longarm. Even when the guy added a lasersight.

The Grand Jury is supposed to ascertain 'probable cause' which is a really low bar. The prosecutor in this case muddied the waters by supplying too much evidence, so he is either spectacularly incompetent or biased.

In other news, prosecutor is from a police family with significant links to the force in question. And his father was a police officer killed in the line of duty by a black criminal... err.

They were abolished in England in the 19th Century. I think the idea was a check to ensure there is sufficient grounds to prosecute.

That Mr Policeman could legitimately miss so many times before hitting the guy.

I'm assuming there will be an investigation into the prosecutor next, and then after that comes back as "everything is fine guv, honest" there will be a million dollar lawsuit from the family against either the police department or the cop, because America.

There is still a lot of racism deep rooted in that area of the US as well, I think at lot of them haven't got over the fact Lincoln stopped slavery and Kennedy stopped segregation yet. Or for that fact the they lost the Civil war in the South .

Paging Kern... Kern to US history, please

The Texan LBJ did far more for civil rights than Kennedy did, although JFK's career was cut short.
Were it not for Vietnam, LBJ would be remembered as one of the great presidents.

Brown was shot at least seven times though?

After the war, things were, compartively, good for the black populace in the south (other than the poverty, poor education, general racism etc). It was only when the troops were removed after the end of Reconstruction in the 1870s that the old order began to re-assert itself, leading to the century of oppression. The gutting of the 14th (equality under the law) and 15th amendments (voting rights) in the late 19th/early 20th century is one of the biggest tragedies of US history.

That subconversation started about Tamir Rice though, I think.

\
Goddamn Vietnam.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30266172

The Policeman who did the shooting has "resigned"

Find it hard to believe he has just quit, as the US do look after their law enforcement people. He is also done nothing wrong technically.

He must have been paid off.

Cops lie about the shooting of Tamir Rice.

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index. ... ing_b.html

He made a load on a bloody crowd funding thing.

Yeah but he's technically bound to actually spent it on a bloody crowd now.

Any crowd in Ferguson ends up bloody

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... CMP=twt_gu

Grand juries not resulting in indictments:

Police Officers: 80 of 81

Civilians: 11 of 162,000

The latest one is absurd. Video evidence of an illegal choke hold, victim not aggressive, not committing any crime whatsoever, coroner rules homicide via choking...

... not even worth a trial.

Just... what?

Wow.

Incredible, isn't it? What I never understand is the sheer scale of numbers like these, and the fact that so much of the US can just look at it without seeing a glaring issue that needs addressing.

The system is working as intended though.

I think what it indicates isn't so much a problem with racism as such though*, but more a general bumming of police types.

* - that's not to say that there isn't one, just that that's not what's at play here.