Be Excellent To Each Other

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From paralumun.com

Surely that would raise the rape count to 90%+ for university students?

Depending on what state you live in, being drunk and consenting to sex is not consent, because you're apparently incapable of consent. I'm sure we had this discussion before about levels of drunkness.

Your failings in both logic and empathy are all too apparent. I haven't said that women live in constant peril. I also haven't said they'd be raped in the street. You are madly straw manning as usual.

The statistics speak for themselves. As a woman you have far more reason to be scared in general. Being constantly approached in the street by strange men, some creepier than others, can only make it worse.

You said that each and every time a woman is spoken to by a stranger they have to consider 'is this the one'. If that's not trying to represent constant peril I don't know what is. It's also absolute bollocks because most women aren't suddenly gasping with fear each time someone speaks to them on the street.

Since you're interested in statistics, they also state that around 10% of rapes are committed by strangers (source), so by your logic women should be much more fearful of males that they know.

There are plenty of reasons to be wary. I tell my gf to be careful all the time, and she is. But that's an acknowledgement of small risks, rather than an active, persistent fear as a result of being a woman. Assuming women are more prone to fear (myp said 'lower threshold', not 'more reason to be fearful') is precisely what I was attacking. It's pretty easy to understand if you're actually paying attention to what's being said.

I put it like that because it is not necessarily like you have an internal logical conversation every time it happens about whether or not you should be afraid in this particular instance. I can understand if it is generally unpleasant, but I don't actually know what it feels like, I am not a woman. We should ask them.

I don't like being spoken to by strangers generally, but I'm not immediately fearful. They actually have to do something suspicious to provoke that feeling, which is I think is true for both sexes. So I reject utterly the assumption that women are so weak that their reaction to any unexpected approach is immediate fear - it's nonsense.

Most men don't have a niggling thing in the back of their head that they might be raped by a random stranger just because they are walking down the street at night.

Most women do worry about that more, some more than others, some less than some men.

I don't think anyone is saying that ALL women worry about rape more than ALL men or Worry about it ALL the time. Just that it doesn't cross most men's mind (they might be worried about being mugged or whatever) at all, whereas it would enter the mind of a woman, because it's more likely to happen to them.

Malc

Nobody said that....

Well yes, that's fair, because it's context-based fear. If you're a woman walking alone down a dark street at night and a shifty stranger suddenly appears and starts speaking to you, that's pretty scary.

If you're sitting in a park at lunchtime and someone says 'hello', I wouldn't expect any of the immediate thoughts to be about rape, or specifically for women to have a 'lower threshold' for fear in that scenario.

Why not?

Because women aren't inherently weak and fearful? This is the laboured point I'm making.

Again no one has said that.

For example out of 100 I could have a fear factor of 60, a girl 50. This makes her more fearful but not weak.

I think you are confusing weak and fear.

And no one has postulated this, so why are you doing it?

Why are we talking about rape in a thread about ethics in games journalism?

For the lulz.

Myp said women have a lower threshold than men for fear when approached. You've postulated this yourself by saying that each and every time a woman is approached they have to consider if they're going to be raped. These assumptions have been made on nothing other than sex and rape statistics.

I believe a failure to condemn GamerGate in a satisfactory manner makes you a supporter of rape and death threats.

Those darn statistics! You can prove anything with them things!

"Rape happens to more women than men, therefore women are more afraid of rape".

That second part is an enormous and unfounded assumption to make.

Two of GamerGate's leading lights take a quiet moment to discuss ethics in games journalism.

Oh dear. That's quite special.

Again, a quick google suggests how wrong you are.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fear+of+rape+statistics

Not at all.

in my circle of fiends 0 men have been raped, and 4 women have. So an allowed assumption.

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what does "SJW" stand for?

It's not even that we worry we're going to be raped every time we step outside the front door; it's the fact you know you're going to have to put up with uninvited shit from people just because you have tits. Maybe they think they're being nice and you should be grateful for the comments but the moment you acknowledge them is the moment it could escalate into something else - not rape necessarily, which I think would be a rare escalation from daytime street harassment like that - but still comments or actions you don't want.

Anecdotally, I have been groped by complete and utter strangers probably around 6-10 times. I have been groped by men I know well enough to say hello to easily twice that amount. I have been sexually assaulted twice and one of those times was by a random stranger. I have been called beautiful, told I have beautiful eyes, have a beautiful neck; I've had people try to kiss me and more before calling me a fucking ugly slag because I rebuffed their advances. I've had people tell me I have nice tits or a nice arse, been called a milf, had men shout "shows us yer tits", had random cars full of boys beep and shout when I've been out walking. Been called ugly or a fat bitch/slag/slut just for walking past. What I have learned from all of this, is that unless you are in immediate fear of for your safety, you ignore it, you keep your head down and keep on walking. The second I have ever engaged anyone, the more uncomfortable it gets and a lot of the time, you just get abuse for it. And you know what? I just wanted to go to Boots to buy hand cream, or have a walk because I'm feeling unfit, or have a night out with my friends.

Now I'm not a girly girl; I'm not beautiful or even above average attractiveness, and I'm 32 years old. I'm 6' tall so taller than most of the male population, I'm not a waif I'm not dainty yet men still do all of that. Regardless of what time of day it is. Regardless of what you wear. I see gorgeous, slim, petite girls walking around by themselves or in small groups and I wonder how much shit they have to put up with.

When I'm out walking around, day or night, I'm looking to avoid going near groups of more than 3 men and trying not to make eye contact with anyone, especially men.

Social Justice Warrior, the re-branding of White Knight by the GG movement

All of that sounds absolutely fucking awful, and I'm really sorry that has happened. My gf is tall and I know that such a simple thing is enough to make you noticed and draw comments from arseholes.

I have to confess that my view as a man is limited, because I've clearly never had to experience any of that shit first hand. Any bloke that would grope a woman is a fucking prick that needs their balls squeezed in a vice. The best I can hope for is that if I ever witnessed anyone acting like that I'd teach them the immediate repercussions of being such an arsehole.

Can I ask, did you report any of these incidents to the police? It's sexual assault for even the most basic grope.

I'm a Social Justice Ranger (neutral good).

Because social justice is an awful thing to aspire to, apparently.

The advanced gropes take years of practice to pull off successfully.

Yes, very funny, but I mean that even pinching someone's arse is sexual assault and shouldn't be tolerated.

Well I'm going to assume they fall into the same category as Human Rights and are things to avoid and suppress.

I've never understood ass pinching. It seems to me that neither party gets anything out of it.

I like it.. being pinched

Oh good God let's get back on topic quickly!

That's how I'd characterised it myself previously but I think it's actually worse than that; SJW is an attempt to turn it into an insult the fact that someone thinks games shouldn't be sexist/racist/homophobic/etc. It's the same weird bullshit that came about a few years ago on America where Fox News et al started just straight out using 'liberal' as an insult, as if using a word in that context somehow stopped it being something their opponents specifically and purposely presented themselves as.

Are they trying to do a parody, or is that an actual real public conversation between them?

I think I underestimate the sheer number of arseholes in the world, but then again I probably don't.

I'm not trying to say things aren't a problem, or are in any way excusable, but neither will I let blanket generalisations slip through even if I agree with an underlying principle. People should be left the fuck alone in the street if they want to be, but neither can you lump someone saying 'hi there, how are you?' into the category of harassment.

Behaviour of the kind flis describes should be criminal, and really it already is under Section 5 of the Public Order Act. Some enforcement would be nice.

https://twitter.com/PlayDangerously/sta ... 6048934913
Plenty more where that came from too.

It's the latest incarnation of Jim Davidson-style "it's political correctness gone mad" whining.

But have you seen what some rape victims have to go through when their case gets taken to court? I can well imagine a lot of women thinking "sod that" when it comes to reporting "lesser" sexual abuse.

Malc

An actual human being wrote this:



Rest of it makes it abundantly clear this is not a spoof or parody.

The argument you'll get from people like me is the objection to the insistence that games like Hitman are designed to objectify and brutalise women and were built specifically with this in mind. Sarkeesian's area of complaint is one part of a single level where killing some dancers in a strip club is an optional way of blasting through the level and is disincentivised in the game anyway with score reductions.

The vast, vast majority of the game is a Hitman killing men and the presentation of anything else is appropriately contextual to the story. To hold it up as an example of sexism in games is just fucking bonkers. If you want to make that argument you need a credible example and I'm sure there are plenty of others. Calling her videos idiotic because they take non-representative examples is entirely reasonable, threatening to kill and rape her is not. But trying to conflate anyone with a valid criticism with the actual misogynists smacks of a self-righteousness designed to suppress legitimate debate.

There are other aspects to the argument. If a game is seen to be mirroring real life (like racing games where fast cars have scantily clad women splayed all over them), is the game sexist, or is real life sexist? Things like that are even more debatable and revolve around whether you consider suggestive modelling to be a valid career choice for women (I do).

The point being that the criticism of the so-called SJW is when people take an aspect of complaint where they believe they're in the right, and use that as a pivot to preach and presume on other aspects of the discussion where the lumbering blanket accusation of misogyny doesn't cut it.

Of course these dickheads then go the other way and call everything that criticises them legitimately a 'SJW' as a way of nullifying that, so really it's just as bad. It's like the video someone posted above - there are arseholes on both sides and if would be better if they were both ignored so the actual debate could occur without being marred with constant, obfuscating shit-flinging.

All of it and more.



Given the process involved in - and the ridiculous lack of support for - reporting something like rape, how seriously do you think they're going to take a woman who reports being catcalled, or having their arse pinched, etc?

It's a cultural issue that needs addressing. I'd tell everyone to make those calls and force the police to record it as reportable crime. It's one of those statistics they'll eventually have to get off their arses to tackle. Meanwhile there's a basic educational need - teaching people not to be leery pricks, and the punishment for those that haven't learn the lesson which feeds back into more active policing.

The funny part is that "social justice warrior" actually sounds awesome, so i don't know how they think they're insulting anyone with that.

And how do you know so many women that have been raped? Where do you live? Australia circa. Mad Max 2?

Do you actually understand what's involved in that process? And I don't mean the physical process of having to call the police, but rather the emotional: in having to decide to tell someone - anyone - that you've been groped, molested, raped (whichever)? To make that decision to relive that moment, or those moments, again and again? To look someone in the eye and tell them you've been violated? To have to justify yourself - even though you're the victim - to everyone who feels they have the right to question you?

Putting the onus on the victim is completely unfair.

Sorry - if not the victim then who is supposed to report the crime?

The point is that the decision to report should be that of the victim, not you or anyone else.

And indeed it is, but I'm talking about strategies that are aimed at ultimately reducing the instances of assault that we're discussing. If nobody is reporting the crime, society will try to pretend no problem exists because nobody can even point to statistics.