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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 15:16 
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SavyGamer

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LewieP wrote:
Why are we talking about rape in a thread about ethics in games journalism?



I'm out.


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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 15:20 
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sneering elitist

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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Jem wrote:
The point is that the decision to report should be that of the victim, not you or anyone else.

And indeed it is, but I'm talking about strategies that are aimed at ultimately reducing the instances of assault that we're discussing. If nobody is reporting the crime, society will try to pretend no problem exists because nobody can even point to statistics.


Neither of these are strategies:
ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Can I ask, did you report any of these incidents to the police?

ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
I'd tell everyone to make those calls and force the police to record it as reportable crime.


...they're both examples of unnecessary pressure aimed at the victim, when it's the perpetrator of these sorts of crimes that should be targeted.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 15:22 
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LewieP wrote:
LewieP wrote:
Why are we talking about rape in a thread about ethics in games journalism?



I'm out.

I honestly believed you were making a GamerGate joke up there, and I certainly didn't mean any offence with my non sequitur.


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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 15:25 
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Jem wrote:
...they're both examples of unnecessary pressure aimed at the victim, when it's the perpetrator of these sorts of crimes that should be targeted.

But how are you going to catch the perpetrator if the victim doesn't report the crime (presuming there are no witnesses, of course)?

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 15:28 
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Master of dodgy spelling....

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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
An actual human being wrote this:

Quote:
The Year is 2017.

HR 6721 "The Hillary/Bliss Catcalling Harassment Prevention Act" has just taken effect.

It's your average day at the office. I'm toiling away at work, enjoying a pumpkin spice latte my female clerk retrieved for me this morning, and wondering what frivolous actions I will take with my 30% extra salary this weekend.

I notice my coworker, Annabelle, walking over to the water-cooler. She had recently changed her hairstyle and had it done up in a fashion that had taken quite some time. As she pressed the button down, the spout on the cooler only sputtered, the tank had become empty. She looked down nervously at the spare untapped water tank on floor. It tipped the scales at over 50lbs, too heavy for someone of her small stature to hoist onto the cooler. It was at this point, my oppression senses began tingling.

I saw her predicament from my desk and called over "Annabelle, let me help?" A resounding gasp echoed throughout the cubicles of the offices and people rolled their swivel chairs in a semi-circle around the two of us to witness the display of patriarchy firsthand.

Before deftly reaching down and grabbing the new water tank I say to Annabelle, who is frozen in place, "Your new hair looks great, by the way". A single tear, peaks from her eye. Other female co-workers pass out from the emotional downpour of the oppression. Those who hadn't feinted started feverishly dialing the authorities.
I snatch the tank and place it on top of the cooler. As soon as the tank clicks into place, the windows in the office shatter. Laser sights become fixated on my head and chest and a SWAT team bursts through the doors. I get down on my knees and place my hands behind my head, smirking uncontrollably. Annabelle, still frozen, mutters

"T-t-thank you, Mactoni..." before she can finish, I cut her off " No, nooo.." and right before the swat team placed the black bag over my head.

"It was my privilege."


Rest of it makes it abundantly clear this is not a spoof or parody.


What on earth?

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 15:29 
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Grim... wrote:
Jem wrote:
...they're both examples of unnecessary pressure aimed at the victim, when it's the perpetrator of these sorts of crimes that should be targeted.

But how are you going to catch the perpetrator if the victim doesn't report the crime (presuming there are no witnesses, of course)?

:this:

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 15:31 
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And it is a strategy. Efforts in policing are often directed based on the reporting of a given crime. If you can demonstrate an excess of sexual harassment/assault, it becomes likely that a taskforce or other initiative will be set up to combat it. None of these things are ideal because they all take time and the best approach isn't obvious, but what else can we do? Getting angry and demanding results in some non-specific way isn't the answer either.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 15:34 
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Grim... wrote:
Jem wrote:
...they're both examples of unnecessary pressure aimed at the victim, when it's the perpetrator of these sorts of crimes that should be targeted.

But how are you going to catch the perpetrator if the victim doesn't report the crime (presuming there are no witnesses, of course)?


Not all victims want to "hide" (a better word escapes me at the second) - those who want to step forward and report the crime will still do so irrelevant of how much pressure you apply to those who don't want to. Pushing victims towards reporting because you think that it's part of a "strategy" to reduce this kind of crime completely disrespects and re-traumatises those who've already been through an ordeal.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 15:37 
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Trying to change acceptable culture would be a start, perhaps? Which brings us back to GG and the basic objectives of feminism.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 15:39 
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Jem wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Jem wrote:
...they're both examples of unnecessary pressure aimed at the victim, when it's the perpetrator of these sorts of crimes that should be targeted.

But how are you going to catch the perpetrator if the victim doesn't report the crime (presuming there are no witnesses, of course)?


Not all victims want to "hide" (a better word escapes me at the second) - those who want to step forward and report the crime will still do so irrelevant of how much pressure you apply to those who don't want to. Pushing victims towards reporting because you think that it's part of a "strategy" to reduce this kind of crime completely disrespects and re-traumatises those who've already been through an ordeal.

I quite agree, but there's no way to get at the perpetrator in that case.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 15:46 
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As far as feminism goes, trying to address inequality by focussing on the needs of one sex doesn't strike me as the way to do it. If you're alleging to be a proponent of equality for both sexes than by definition you can't call yourself a feminist. Egalitarian is the best word, but who uses that as often? Men who try to fight for equal rights are labelled pejoratively as 'MRAs' in much the same way that GamerGate has been labelled as basic misogynists so as to make any support for any sentiments therein utterly toxic to its members.

I'd happily sign up to something that could demonstrate an actual desire for completely impartial equality applied to both sexes, acknowledging that what can be considered equal is often debatable and needn't break down into factionalism at the first sign of disagreement. I don't actually think humans are capable of this though, sadly.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 15:48 
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sneering elitist

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Grim... wrote:
I quite agree, but there's no way to get at the perpetrator in that case.


Absolutely - which was what I was rather clumsily getting at by referring to "these sorts of crimes". Apols for dodgy wording, vaguely attempting to work ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 15:53 
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Jem wrote:
Grim... wrote:
I quite agree, but there's no way to get at the perpetrator in that case.


Absolutely - which was what I was rather clumsily getting at by referring to "these sorts of crimes". Apols for dodgy wording, vaguely attempting to work ;)

Wait... Women can work?!

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 15:56 
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sneering elitist

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I'm in the kitchen making sandwiches.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 15:59 
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Jem wrote:
I'm in the kitchen making sandwiches.


:DD

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 16:07 
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Both the discussions in this thread are interesting but would it be possible for a awesome mod to split the 2 topics? might make it easier to follow. If its not possible or just too damn hard I will be calling for a full enquiry and attempt to start a internet campaign to boycott

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 16:19 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
As far as feminism goes, trying to address inequality by focussing on the needs of one sex doesn't strike me as the way to do it. If you're alleging to be a proponent of equality for both sexes than by definition you can't call yourself a feminist. Egalitarian is the best word, but who uses that as often? Men who try to fight for equal rights are labelled pejoratively as 'MRAs' in much the same way that GamerGate has been labelled as basic misogynists so as to make any support for any sentiments therein utterly toxic to its members.

I'd happily sign up to something that could demonstrate an actual desire for completely impartial equality applied to both sexes, acknowledging that what can be considered equal is often debatable and needn't break down into factionalism at the first sign of disagreement. I don't actually think humans are capable of this though, sadly.


Now, you see, this just shows a misunderstanding of the terms involved.

Feminists are called that because they are looking to improve female rights to be equal to those of men, both in law and in society. Men already have these rights. That's not to disrespect men or to try to remove any rights they have, unless they are incompatible with an equal rights society.

It is exactly the same as black rights activists and gay rights activists. These people are not trying to remove rights from white or straight people.

MRAs are different in that they (and in all these cases obviously there are outliers etc) are campaigning AGAINST equal rights for women. The motive is one of trying to maintain a privileged position.

To create an equal society you should clearly try to improve the situation of those in the worse position. Hence feminism.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 16:29 
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Curiosity wrote:
MRAs are different in that they (and in all these cases obviously there are outliers etc) are campaigning AGAINST equal rights for women. The motive is one of trying to maintain a privileged position.

I mean really, wow. All movements have their mentalists (it's not hard to truly truly insane feminists), but you should know that these are not the stated aims of any MRA commentators I've ever seen. If anything that precisely demonstrates a 'toxic' (oh, such an overused word) perception of something that has goals of equality that are just as laudable as anyone else.

I could point to any number of feminist examples that show that they're supporters of not equal rights, but of superior rights for women, for a variety of batshit reasons. I wouldn't use that as a basis to discard all notions of feminist agenda where there exists legitimate complaints, but to assume that all of its activists are worthy and honest whereas all MRAs are clearly misogynistic is just batshit mental. It's also fundamentally wrong to assert that only women have disadvantages and prejudices, or that those faced by men should be otherwise ignored until some non-specific authority determines that women's rights are up to the mark.

People will be upset if we have a full-blown discussion of this in the games thread, so perhaps it's best saved for another time.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 17:15 
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I thought Gamergate was about "Cash for Reviews". No, "Ads for Cash". No, "Cash for Stars". No ,"Stars for Cash". No, "Ads for Stars". "Percentages for money"? "Percent for Revenue"? "Revenue for U"? "Games for Claims"?

No...can someone come up with something like "Cash for Honours" but is catchy. And then attribute it to me. Kaithxbi.


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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 17:24 
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Level 6 Laser Lotus

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Saturnalian wrote:
I thought Gamergate was about "Cash for Reviews". No, "Ads for Cash". No, "Cash for Stars". No ,"Stars for Cash". No, "Ads for Stars". "Percentages for money"? "Percent for Revenue"? "Revenue for U"? "Games for Claims"?

No...can someone come up with something like "Cash for Honours" but is catchy. And then attribute it to me. Kaithxbi.


Ethics in Games Journalism?

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 18:05 
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Curiosity wrote:
Feminists are called that because they are looking to improve female rights to be equal to those of men, both in law and in society. Men already have these rights. That's not to disrespect men or to try to remove any rights they have, unless they are incompatible with an equal rights society.

What rights are being fought for here?


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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 18:17 
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Mr Dave wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
Feminists are called that because they are looking to improve female rights to be equal to those of men, both in law and in society. Men already have these rights. That's not to disrespect men or to try to remove any rights they have, unless they are incompatible with an equal rights society.

What rights are being fought for here?


Well, crikey, where to start?

I guess there was the right to vote, the right for access to birth controls, the right to the same legal protections as men, etc etc etc

These days it's more about trying to get society to move towards equality. That's in removing discrimination, giving equal opportunities, respect and so on.

There are more male MPs at the moment than there have been female MPs in history, and it isn't even close.

Much like racism is still a thing, despite legal attempts to outlaw it, so is sexism.

Unless you're trying to say that a fair equilibrium of society has been reached already, but I doubt you'd say that.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 18:24 
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Discrimination on sex is illegal, so you fix attitudes by educating the young and waiting for those with an archaic mindset to die off.

I don't think we really need 50% of females in all jobs everywhere in some kind of 'positive discrimination' quota, unless you're also going to start aggressively fighting the corner for 50% of all bin collectors to be female also. Funny how people demand equity except when it's for something shitty that we're typically happy for mostly males to do. Best person for the job in all instances, whether that's 90% female or 90% male.

If there's a problem with aspirations, that's education again. You don't need to be a housewife, but there are no legal impediments now to doing whatever the heck you like. We need to be satisfied that we have equality of opportunity, and what people then choose to do is entirely up to them.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 18:51 
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Positive discrimination is condescending and actually imo does more harm than good to improve women condition.

Not enough women in Politics? So what? Man are more interested in it.
Not enough women in IT and programming? Also, see above.

Is there anyone complaining that there aren't enough men biologists and elementary teachers?


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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 19:20 
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RuySan wrote:
Positive discrimination is condescending and actually imo does more harm than good to improve women condition.

Not enough women in Politics? So what? Man are more interested in it.
Not enough women in IT and programming? Also, see above.

Is there anyone complaining that there aren't enough men biologists and elementary teachers?

Shockingly sexist and outdated views here, RuySan, for shame. Girls are just as interested in science, politics, tech and gaming. Just that the opportunities are limited growing up due to being taught that 'gender normalcy' is a real thing (chemistry kits for boys, princess dresses for girls etc). Also some industries such as tech treat women so badly that women end up leaving their careers because it's too stressful to have to prove themselves all the time in ways men don't.

The notion that men and women are somehow fundamentally different species a la 'Men are from Mars...' needs to stop now. We are basically the same. Men shouldn't be ridiculed for liking ballet or drinking cocktails instead of beer (but they are); they should be able to show emotion whenever they want (poor mental health among men due to our macho culture is another thing entirely). Women should be able to work in traditional male industries without constantly having to prove themselves that they know about computers. We have a long way to go, and it's comments like yours which are stopping society getting to where it needs to get to.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 19:46 
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That reminds me, I should really update my sewing blog.


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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 19:47 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Discrimination on sex is illegal, so you fix attitudes by educating the young and waiting for those with an archaic mindset to die off.

I don't think we really need 50% of females in all jobs everywhere in some kind of 'positive discrimination' quota, unless you're also going to start aggressively fighting the corner for 50% of all bin collectors to be female also. Funny how people demand equity except when it's for something shitty that we're typically happy for mostly males to do. Best person for the job in all instances, whether that's 90% female or 90% male.

If there's a problem with aspirations, that's education again. You don't need to be a housewife, but there are no legal impediments now to doing whatever the heck you like. We need to be satisfied that we have equality of opportunity, and what people then choose to do is entirely up to them.


Agree with the equality of opportunity, but it's exceedingly obvious that it doesn't yet exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 19:56 
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Trooper wrote:
That reminds me, I should really update my sewing blog.

Sewing? What a poof.

Next you'll be packing fudge at the cottage.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 20:11 
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Isn't that lovely?

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What next, men wearing skirts?

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 20:13 
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The Onion nails it, as usual.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/i-dont ... all,37301/

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 20:22 
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RuySan wrote:
Not enough women in Politics? So what? Man are more interested in it.
Not enough women in IT and programming? Also, see above.

They aren't "interested in" it due to social/cultural conditioning.

The gender roles that define and determine our life chances and opportunities are wholly social constructions. The fact that they appear 'natural' and 'ordinary' to the unquestioning is a reflection of the power of those social constructions.

Incidentally, modern academic feminism often looks at how gender roles negatively affect men and male identities as much as how they affect females. (And please, anyone who responds, please actually learn what things like 'feminism', 'cultural criticism' actually entail, it's relatively straightforward to grasp the basics about what both broadly entail, but there seems to be some on this thread who fail to understand the very basics of what they are attacking. Being wilfully and uncorrectably ignorant isn't a positive trait and not really constructive if we're trying to have a coherent discussion.)


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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 21:41 
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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 21:58 
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I agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 22:17 
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American Nervoso wrote:

That's a great piece. Pffft.

Yes, I can see how that might catch on around here!
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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 23:05 
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American Nervoso wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Positive discrimination is condescending and actually imo does more harm than good to improve women condition.

Not enough women in Politics? So what? Man are more interested in it.
Not enough women in IT and programming? Also, see above.

Is there anyone complaining that there aren't enough men biologists and elementary teachers?

Shockingly sexist and outdated views here, RuySan, for shame. Girls are just as interested in science, politics, tech and gaming. Just that the opportunities are limited growing up due to being taught that 'gender normalcy' is a real thing (chemistry kits for boys, princess dresses for girls etc). Also some industries such as tech treat women so badly that women end up leaving their careers because it's too stressful to have to prove themselves all the time in ways men don't.

The notion that men and women are somehow fundamentally different species a la 'Men are from Mars...' needs to stop now. We are basically the same. Men shouldn't be ridiculed for liking ballet or drinking cocktails instead of beer (but they are); they should be able to show emotion whenever they want (poor mental health among men due to our macho culture is another thing entirely). Women should be able to work in traditional male industries without constantly having to prove themselves that they know about computers. We have a long way to go, and it's comments like yours which are stopping society getting to where it needs to get to.


Jeeezzz, calm down man. You know nothing about me, and yet it didn't stopped you from name calling.

No, we are not basically the same. Not at all one bit. My wife is an academic in a chemistry related field, and she'll tell me constantly all the strange difference scientists are discovering everyday between genders. Be it do to hormones, genes, or just biochemistry. I think it's just ignorance to assume that every difference is due to social conditioning.


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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 23:25 
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RuySan wrote:
American Nervoso wrote:
RuySan wrote:
Positive discrimination is condescending and actually imo does more harm than good to improve women condition.

Not enough women in Politics? So what? Man are more interested in it.
Not enough women in IT and programming? Also, see above.

Is there anyone complaining that there aren't enough men biologists and elementary teachers?

Shockingly sexist and outdated views here, RuySan, for shame. Girls are just as interested in science, politics, tech and gaming. Just that the opportunities are limited growing up due to being taught that 'gender normalcy' is a real thing (chemistry kits for boys, princess dresses for girls etc). Also some industries such as tech treat women so badly that women end up leaving their careers because it's too stressful to have to prove themselves all the time in ways men don't.

The notion that men and women are somehow fundamentally different species a la 'Men are from Mars...' needs to stop now. We are basically the same. Men shouldn't be ridiculed for liking ballet or drinking cocktails instead of beer (but they are); they should be able to show emotion whenever they want (poor mental health among men due to our macho culture is another thing entirely). Women should be able to work in traditional male industries without constantly having to prove themselves that they know about computers. We have a long way to go, and it's comments like yours which are stopping society getting to where it needs to get to.


Jeeezzz, calm down man. You know nothing about me, and yet it didn't stopped you from name calling.

No, we are not basically the same. Not at all one bit. My wife is an academic in a chemistry related field, and she'll tell me constantly all the strange difference scientists are discovering everyday between genders. Be it do to hormones, genes, or just biochemistry. I think it's just ignorance to assume that every difference is due to social conditioning.


But surely it's also ignorance to say that it's all just chemistry, unless you have the evidence?

Feel free to link me to multiple peer reviewed studies and meta-studies where it shows that women are clinically less interested in politics, if you can.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 0:07 
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Curiosity wrote:
But surely it's also ignorance to say that it's all just chemistry, unless you have the evidence?

Feel free to link me to multiple peer reviewed studies and meta-studies where it shows that women are clinically less interested in politics, if you can.

He'd have to link to at least zero of them to debunk the data you provided!

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 0:12 
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Grim... wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
But surely it's also ignorance to say that it's all just chemistry, unless you have the evidence?

Feel free to link me to multiple peer reviewed studies and meta-studies where it shows that women are clinically less interested in politics, if you can.

He'd have to link to at least zero of them to debunk the data you provided!

He made the claims - the burden of proof is on him.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 0:15 
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American Nervoso wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
But surely it's also ignorance to say that it's all just chemistry, unless you have the evidence?

Feel free to link me to multiple peer reviewed studies and meta-studies where it shows that women are clinically less interested in politics, if you can.

He'd have to link to at least zero of them to debunk the data you provided!

He made the claims - the burden of proof is on him.

What? No he didn't - you claimed it was social.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 0:50 
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Grim... wrote:
American Nervoso wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
But surely it's also ignorance to say that it's all just chemistry, unless you have the evidence?

Feel free to link me to multiple peer reviewed studies and meta-studies where it shows that women are clinically less interested in politics, if you can.

He'd have to link to at least zero of them to debunk the data you provided!

He made the claims - the burden of proof is on him.

What? No he didn't - you claimed it was social.


The statement is:

Quote:
Not enough women in Politics? So what? Man are more interested in it.


I am disputing that and asking for evidence.

You can't start with the assumption that women aren't interested in politics. That makes no sense whatsoever.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:30 
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'Politics' does not occur naturally, e.g. it does not occur at cellular level through biochemical reactions. 'Politics' exists through social interaction between humans, and does not exist independentally of human culture.

'Politics' is therefore undeniably a socio-cultural construction. What constitutes 'politics' varies from culture to culture, whether that be in developed or pre-industrial forms of society, and even varies within the same culture historically. Culture is transmitted through social conditioning. Therefore any factors which determine or influence the level of personal interest held by members of a particular gender towards 'politics' are entirely due to the effects of social conditioning.


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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:23 
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Curiosity wrote:
Grim... wrote:
American Nervoso wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
But surely it's also ignorance to say that it's all just chemistry, unless you have the evidence?

Feel free to link me to multiple peer reviewed studies and meta-studies where it shows that women are clinically less interested in politics, if you can.

He'd have to link to at least zero of them to debunk the data you provided!

He made the claims - the burden of proof is on him.

What? No he didn't - you claimed it was social.


The statement is:

Quote:
Not enough women in Politics? So what? Man are more interested in it.


I am disputing that and asking for evidence.

You can't start with the assumption that women aren't interested in politics. That makes no sense whatsoever.


Myp claimed that man and women are fundamentally the same, which to me is so ridiculous as claiming that homeopathy works and that climate change is a myth. My point is: Since genders differ so much, is only natural that men and women get interest in different things.

Also, many of you are assuming that jobs traditionally held by men are more important or dignified (like IT, engineering or politics) and measures should be taken to force some sort of balance. My point is, why are those jobs more important that the ones that are traditionally held by women, in fields like biology, psychology, teaching or chemistry? Or even Medical School which has been dominated by women in the last two decades, which means that in some years we'll barely have any man doctor (in this last case i'm speaking only of my country case). I don't see people worried that there aren't many men in these fields...


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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:32 
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I wouldn't trust sociology as a model of who does what any more as I would trust psychology as model as to who thinks why, both areas are notoriously unreliable when it comes to reproducible results. And most stuff they come up with is the sort a 15 year old girls writes on her mirror in lipstick.

Anyway, here's some light reading on the effect of gender on behaviour and perception from a very brief search of the public databases.

EDIT: 2009 BMA report on 'Equality and Diversity at UK Medical Schools' says:

Quote:
In particular, the increase in female
students over the past 40 years may have been influenced by the introduction of fairer selection
processes, which reduced discrimination against female applicants. There is evidence that
discrimination against women candidates has existed in the past in selection to medical school.
At the time of the 1968 report of the Royal Commission on Medical Education, medical schools
were widely believed to apply more stringent selection criteria to women than to men


2013 thing form the Guardian which show an increase in female students studying engineering and technology. Decrease in COmputer science but that is decreasing overall.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:39 
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The sexes are equal, but that doesn't mean they're the same, or even that they should act the same. As Ruy says, things like science and medicine are deemed (by who, I don't know) to be worthy careers and therefore we must alter the 'social construction' to construct more women to go into those fields. Socially constructing people is evil unless the self-appointed authorities on sexual equality decide it isn't.

I'll repeat again, nobody is falling over themselves to right the imbalance of the male-dominated bin collectors. Isn't that just as worthy and essential a job? Are we not concerned about the low aspirations of millions of men in such careers just because there also happen to be more of them in roles that 'we' consider more prestigious? Gosh, I feel so sorry for those men that have been socially engineered to believe that bin collecting and manual labour is only fit for a man. Women must be saved for better things.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:42 
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RuySan wrote:
Also, many of you are assuming that jobs traditionally held by men are more important or dignified (like IT, engineering or politics)

IT jobs were tradionally held by women until around 1985.

Here's a link for Curio: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:58 
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Isn't that lovely?

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Did anyone see the documentary a few weeks ago about the differences between the sexes? Presented by Alice Roberts and Michael Mosley?

They looked at nature vs nuture and concluded that it was a bit of both.

They gave some toys to some monkeys and the male monkeys played with the "boys" toys (cars and stuff) and the female monkeys played with the "girls" toys (dolls etc)

But they also did things like telling an adult a child was a boy, when it was girl. Then they left them to play with some toys. the adults invariably felt the child was naturally drown to the "boys" toys. They then did the opposite (told them the child was a girl when it was boy) and the adults once again felt the child was drawn to the "girls" toys.

It's worth catching it on iplayer ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04knbny ) if you are interested.

Malc

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:34 
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RuySan wrote:
Not enough women in Politics? So what? Man are more interested in it

Still waiting on some proof of this. This was your opening statement. I am happy to discuss my rebuttal afterwards.

Maybe ask your wife for some links seeing as you seem to be floundering here.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:56 
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The very simple message is that this is not about a single type of career or job; it is about ethics in gaming journalism equality of opportunity.

The point that I am trying to make is that this country (and the world in general) should be sufficiently enlightened that people of either sex do not face discrimination in their chosen field. This can be politics, science, medicine, construction, engineering, waste removal, serving tables, being air crew, soldiers, sewage workers, whatever.

The only way this can be attacked is if you are either sexist or believe sexism doesn't exist (or isn't a problem).

The reason that there is a focus on high paid jobs and positions of influence is because these are very obviously desirable positions that are generally male dominated. There are obviously other areas that are male dominated that are less desirable, but referencing that as some kind of weird straw man makes absolutely no argument at all. If you think there aren't women out there doing unpopular jobs on low or minimum wages then you're insane.

So yes, I believe that if a woman wants to be a bin person then they should be able to without any bullying or discrimination. If a man wants to be a Personal Assistant, likewise. I do not believe that you can just shrug your shoulders, say equality of opportunity has been reached, and take a 'Men are from Mars...' view on life without inherently supporting any sexist constructs that exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 13:09 
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Malc wrote:
Did anyone see the documentary a few weeks ago about the differences between the sexes? Presented by Alice Roberts and Michael Mosley?

They looked at nature vs nuture and concluded that it was a bit of both.

They gave some toys to some monkeys and the male monkeys played with the "boys" toys (cars and stuff) and the female monkeys played with the "girls" toys (dolls etc)

But they also did things like telling an adult a child was a boy, when it was girl. Then they left them to play with some toys. the adults invariably felt the child was naturally drown to the "boys" toys. They then did the opposite (told them the child was a girl when it was boy) and the adults once again felt the child was drawn to the "girls" toys.

It's worth catching it on iplayer ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04knbny ) if you are interested.

Malc

Honestly, a (zoological) study using an entirely different species is going to tell us nothing of any validity about social transmission of gender roles in humans. After all, human gender roles and norms do not exist independentally of human culture. Also, the concept of 'toys' and their relative symbolic significance is a wholly human cultural construction.


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 Post subject: Re: Gamersgate
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 14:14 
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Dogs play with toys.

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