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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 23:10 
SupaMod
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Galloway "has evidence of malpractice", apparently.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general ... efeat.html

Quote:
Controversial former MP George Galloway has signalled that he is starting a legal challenge against his defeat in last week's general election. [...] In a statement tonight, he said: "It has come to my notice that there has been widespread malpractice in this election, particularly over postal voting.
"We are in the process of compiling the information which will form part of our petition to have the result set aside."

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 23:47 
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Tbh I think both me and Cavey would agree that the result is more of a general relief than a cause to gloat. It's not like the government is a perfect entity to be particularly celebrated, even if 'your' party won it. Given the choices this was definitely better than minimal Miliband + SNP shenanigans, in which case phew.

I still think I'd vote Lib Dem first before Labour in the future, and the next 5 years are going to be a real test for everyone involved. Miliband MkII might not come back to lead but he might pop himself back in an MP seat.

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 7:03 
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Grim... wrote:
Galloway "has evidence of malpractice", apparently.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general ... efeat.html

Quote:
Controversial former MP George Galloway has signalled that he is starting a legal challenge against his defeat in last week's general election. [...] In a statement tonight, he said: "It has come to my notice that there has been widespread malpractice in this election, particularly over postal voting.
"We are in the process of compiling the information which will form part of our petition to have the result set aside."


The local paper is reporting that any complaint is yet to be lodged.

Quote:
Bradford Council bosses, who ran the election, said they had so far received no such complaints from him or his team.

Suzan Hemingway, acting Returning Officer, said: "We are disappointed that, if Mr Galloway thought there was postal vote fraud, he didn't report this before the Bradford West election result. We have not received any communication from Mr Galloway or his office regarding concerns about postal vote fraud or any proposed legal challenge in relation to the Bradford West election result."


It will be interesting to see how this plays out, as the spectre of postal voting fraud has always loomed large there.

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 8:48 
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MaliA wrote:
Cavey wrote:
In fairness though Mali, 20/20 hindsight and all that?


if people knew tuition fees would go up, they would not have gotten so many seats. It was the main cause of the party's popularity. much more than a shitty referendum.

https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/5 ... 8046024704

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 8:55 
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Grim... wrote:
"Nigel Farage is to stay on as leader of UKIP after his resignation was rejected unanimously by the party."
Maybe we could make UKIP go away if we resigned from the EU, then quietly re-joined a few days later.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 9:33 
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MR EXCELLENT FACE

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MaliA wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Cavey wrote:
In fairness though Mali, 20/20 hindsight and all that?


if people knew tuition fees would go up, they would not have gotten so many seats. It was the main cause of the party's popularity. much more than a shitty referendum.

https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/5 ... 8046024704


"We've learnt a massive lesson and I don't think we'll ever make that mistake again".

So you're never put anything in absolutes? :P

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 9:56 
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I've just checked and as far as I can see the SNP have no members in the House of Lords. I wonder if they will be appointing some members now.

Of course, we really need to institute a 'one-out; one-in' rule to stop the already bloated Upper House getting any bigger, but I'm surprised they aren't already in there. UKIP have 3 and Plaid have 2.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 10:14 
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Guardian: How the Conservatives won the media air war. Seems to echo other criticism of Labour's lacklustre campaigning.

Also: look at Boris's meatpaws in the pic. Blimey.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 13:37 
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This is interesting

A "who came second?" map

https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/ ... png&w=1484

Edit: The Reddit thread I got it from has found a few errors, so pinch of salt needed.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 13:43 
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That's a lot of purple.

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 13:52 
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Second comes right after first!

Image


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 6:57 
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http://m.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/new ... _election/

More intrigue!

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 12:48 
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http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2015/05 ... ish-values

Quote:
This is how David Cameron will address the National Security Council today:

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens: as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone."


Even more sinister if you drop the adverb: "For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens: as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone."

This would seem to suggest that now, if you've done nothing wrong, you do have something to fear.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 12:56 
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"The government defines extremism as 'the vocal or active opposition to fundamental British values, including democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and the mutual respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs'. We also regard calls for the death of members of our armed forces as extremist.”

This is like my contract which references the HR policy, but no one has seen the HR policy; which can be updated without modification to my contract. I can't help but feel that the definition of extremism should be a legally binding description, which is upheld by law. Strangely enough this sounds like British values, in fact I would say that sneaky laws with back doors is actually anti-British values and more akin to those one might find in more extreme/corrupt countries like Iraq/Iran and soviet Russia.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 12:58 
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There is something of the 'who will rid me of this troublesome priest' about all this.

And I'm fairly sure that we already have pretty tight laws in place on this kind of thing. It's how they are exercised that's the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 13:01 
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Bobbyaro wrote:
"The government defines extremism as 'the vocal or active opposition to fundamental British values, including queuing, tea first then milk, and discussing the weather'.

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 13:17 
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People that put milk first have no place in a decent society.

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 13:29 
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Bobbyaro wrote:

This is like my contract which references the HR policy, but no one has seen the HR policy; which can be updated without modification to my contract. I can't help but feel that the definition of extremism should be a legally binding description, which is upheld by law. Strangely enough this sounds like British values, in fact I would say that sneaky laws with back doors is actually anti-British values and more akin to those one might find in more extreme/corrupt countries like Iraq/Iran and soviet Russia.
Yes. I am profoundly disturbed by the modern trick of passing vague and open-minded laws that allow the administration to cherry-pick convictions against those it takes a dislike to while ignoring others. In this country, the legislature is supposed to act in harmony with the judiciary, not ride roughshod over it whenever it likes.

This criticism applies just as much to Blair's government as it does to Cameron's.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 13:48 
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Grayling's legacy is very much that the legislature really, really doesn't like being told it's not allowed to do stuff by the judiciary.

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 13:51 
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Oh look, new SNP MPs (and others) ambling around London confused by the crazy fangled ways of the capital: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32721006

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 13:56 
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Saw someone on twitter yesterday say "around the streets of Westminster today all that can be heard is repeated calls of 'no honestly, it's legal tender'" :)

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 14:02 
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I had a look into the legal tender argument a while ago. and apparently the best, most convincing thing you can say is that the note is legal currency authorised by the UK Parliament. Apparently Scottish notes aren't legal tender even in Scotland, coins only. Something something promissory note.

Scottish notes are stupid anyway, they all look like they've been smeared with shit. Perhaps they have.

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 14:10 
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s'not shit, it's the chocolate from all the deep fried mars bars.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 14:12 
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What other standard would one need their currency to stand up to aside from being 'legal' and 'authorised by the relevant Parliament'?


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 14:19 
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Bamba wrote:
What other standard would one need their currency to stand up to aside from being 'legal' and 'authorised by the relevant Parliament'?


Blue face paint and a very lazy racial stereotype.

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 14:25 
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I just meant that the typical argument that 'Scottish Notes are legal tender', isn't true because of reasons. Relating to banks. Yep.

Presumably the notes would need to be issues by the central bank to be legal tender, and Scottish banks aren't that, so they're merely authorised. It's not legally binding, you can actually refuse a Scottish note, it's just a bit stupid to do so.

I tendered a Northern Irish fiver a few months ago and the checkout chick was sufficiently nervous about it that she had to call over a manager to check.

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 14:31 
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Legal Tender status is irrelevant, a method of payment that is legal tender cannot be refused if you repay money owed with it.
Does not matter when paying for goods and services, as they can refuse any sort of payment if they want.

Credit cards: not legal tender.
Debit cards: not legal tender.
Cheques: not legal tender


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 14:33 
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This is why dickheads who try to settle debts with wheelbarrows of 1p coins can have their payment refused.

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 14:34 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
This is why dickheads who try to settle debts with wheelbarrows of 1p coins can have their payment refused.

Anything over 20p (sub please check) in copper can be refused I think


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 14:48 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Yes. I am profoundly disturbed by the modern trick of passing vague and open-minded laws that allow the administration to cherry-pick convictions against those it takes a dislike to while ignoring others. In this country, the legislature is supposed to act in harmony with the judiciary, not ride roughshod over it whenever it likes.

This criticism applies just as much to Blair's government as it does to Cameron's.


This. It always annoys me when they say 'it is not the intent of the bill to crimialise [innocent behaviour that could be caught by the bill]' but they never go on to enter that exclusion onto the face of that legislation, and then, invariably, some idiot Plod uses that legislation against someone acting like that.

I also don't like bills that leave far too much to be decided by legislation, or include self-modifying/'Henry VIII' clauses. In fact, poorly written bills annoy me greatly.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 14:51 
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DavPaz wrote:
ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
This is why dickheads who try to settle debts with wheelbarrows of 1p coins can have their payment refused.

Anything over 20p (sub please check) in copper can be refused I think

http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/polici ... guidelines

Quote:
Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning in the settlement of debts. It means that a debtor cannot successfully be sued for non-payment if he pays into court in legal tender. It does not mean that any ordinary transaction has to take place in legal tender or only within the amount denominated by the legislation. Both parties are free to agree to accept any form of payment whether legal tender or otherwise according to their wishes. In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.
The page breaks down what is and isn't legal tender. For any payment over 20p, a penny coin is not legal tender.

Every single argument about whether Scottish notes are or are not legal tender is nonsensical, as the term has no definition unless your repaying a debt to a court (note, not just repaying a debt, but actually paying it to a court.)


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 14:56 
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From that link:

Quote:
In England and Wales the £5, £10, £20 and £50 notes are legal tender for payment of any amount. However, they are not legal tender in Scotland and Northern Ireland.


So Scots should be telling sassenachs to get to fuck with English notes :)


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 14:57 
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DavPaz wrote:
So Scots should be telling sassenachs to get to fuck with English notes :)


Let's not give them any ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 20:13 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
This is why dickheads who try to settle debts with wheelbarrows of 1p coins can have their payment refused.

Anything over 20p (sub please check) in copper can be refused I think

http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/polici ... guidelines

Quote:
Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning in the settlement of debts. It means that a debtor cannot successfully be sued for non-payment if he pays into court in legal tender. It does not mean that any ordinary transaction has to take place in legal tender or only within the amount denominated by the legislation. Both parties are free to agree to accept any form of payment whether legal tender or otherwise according to their wishes. In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.
The page breaks down what is and isn't legal tender. For any payment over 20p, a penny coin is not legal tender.

Every single argument about whether Scottish notes are or are not legal tender is nonsensical, as the term has no definition unless your repaying a debt to a court (note, not just repaying a debt, but actually paying it to a court.)



How do you pay a fine of £20.03 ?

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 20:27 
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I need the equivalent of lmgtfy for "clicking the link to the OP."


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:10 
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Osborne announces more plans for English devolution.

If the powers are meaningful and Whitehall keeps its promises to not interfere, this could be a great step forward for reducing centralisation.

I'm starting to cool on the idea of mayors, however, and wondering if I should be more supportive of a council/parliamentary approach.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 10:24 
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The Guardian has figures that one in four MPs now derive enough income from private renting of properties that they have to declare it.

The same MPs that will be debating and voting on welfare reform.

The same welfare that includes housing benefit, a payment which goes straight [1] from the state to private landlords, and helps prop up house prices.

This is fine.

[1] edit -- this is technically incorrect, see my post below.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 10:38 
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For clarity, are these MPs receiving the housing benefit payments?


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 11:22 
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Saturnalian wrote:
For clarity, are these MPs receiving the housing benefit payments?

Generally, housing benefit is paid to the tenants, who then pay the landlord (I mis-spoke above.) Tenants who have been in arrears or landlords who insist can have it paid directly to the landlord. But I'm not convinced that it resting in the tenant's account for a couple of weeks before eventually ending up in the landlord's pocket changes the big picture.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 11:45 
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Kern wrote:
I'm starting to cool on the idea of mayors, however, and wondering if I should be more supportive of a council/parliamentary approach.


I'm not sure about devolved regions at all. Ideologically its fine, but I don't trust the bureaucracy to just waste a huge amount of money putting a bloated regional administration into place. I feel the tendency of the public sector is to self-justify as many unnecessary posts as possible, rather than keeping it to what's strictly necessary. Certainly in my experience it's usually because a director wants to boast of having x number of employers under him, even if half of them are window dressing.

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 12:49 
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Rumours that Douglas Carswell is going to quit UKIP and become indpendent


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 13:21 
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I wonder if he'll force a by election like he did last time he changed party. As I recall, the by-election when he went to UKIP was against the will of Farage.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 13:24 
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Bobbyaro wrote:
Rumours that Douglas Carswell is going to quit UKIP and become indpendent


I don't agree with his politics, but Carswell seems to be an honourable and decent chap.

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 13:24 
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Again, I can't help but feel the media are completely overhyping the UKIP issues. Some internal debate about how to use or distribute funds is not front page news, and yet strangely it is? Whispers about whether people are happy for Farage to remain as leader. Hardly party breaking but creating the appearance of massive discontent appears to be the order of the day.

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 13:26 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
I need the equivalent of lmgtfy for "clicking the link to the OP."



The link says:

> In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.
> Coins are legal tender throughout the United Kingdom for the following amount:
> 1p - for any amount not exceeding 20p
> 2p - for any amount not exceeding 20p

So if the court wants you to pay £20.73, you have to actually pay £21?


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 13:27 
Filthy Junkie Bitch

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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Again, I can't help but feel the media are completely overhyping the UKIP issues. Some internal debate about how to use or distribute funds is not front page news, and yet strangely it is? Whispers about whether people are happy for Farage to remain as leader. Hardly party breaking but creating the appearance of massive discontent appears to be the order of the day.

Sounds to me like Carswell rejecting the 'Short Money' on grounds of it being inappropriate are connected with him having already decided to leave the party, in which case it would be 'technically' massively inappropriate on the grounds there won't be any UKIP MPs. However, on reasonableness grounds (as it is calculated on a per vote basis, in the main), doesn't seem too unreasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 13:40 
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Where is this random speculation coming from? Has he publicly stated he's leaving the party? Is it all bullshit blown up in the media?

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 13:49 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Again, I can't help but feel the media are completely overhyping the UKIP issues. Some internal debate about how to use or distribute funds is not front page news, and yet strangely it is? Whispers about whether people are happy for Farage to remain as leader. Hardly party breaking but creating the appearance of massive discontent appears to be the order of the day.
Ukip is lots of things. It's intelligent, moderate people who happen to be Euroskeptics and just want us to leave the EU; lumped in with some extreme Libertarians who want to dismantle the NHS and legalise guns; lumped in with actual racists (note than the BNP vote collapsed at the last election); lumped in with career politicians who just want power. Farage has held these elements together but now he's stumbling and the fault lines have opened.

Pod wrote:
> 1p - for any amount not exceeding 20p
> 2p - for any amount not exceeding 20p

So if the court wants you to pay £20.73, you have to actually pay £21?

Admittedly, it's not clearly written, but my reading of that is -- to pay £20.73, you must have either three 1p coins, or a 2p and 1p. In other words, copper coins are legal tender until the combined value of them is more than 20p. In other words, the "amount not exceeding" is referring to the amount of that type of coinage, and not the total amount to be repaid.


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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 14:45 
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EvilTrousers

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 3073
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Pod wrote:
> 1p - for any amount not exceeding 20p
> 2p - for any amount not exceeding 20p

So if the court wants you to pay £20.73, you have to actually pay £21?

Admittedly, it's not clearly written, but my reading of that is -- to pay £20.73, you must have either three 1p coins, or a 2p and 1p. In other words, copper coins are legal tender until the combined value of them is more than 20p. In other words, the "amount not exceeding" is referring to the amount of that type of coinage, and not the total amount to be repaid.


I feel like I am watching an episode of QI right now.

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 Post subject: Re: General Election 2015
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 15:45 
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Legendary Boogeyman

Joined: 22nd Dec, 2010
Posts: 8175
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
lumped in with actual racists (note than the BNP vote collapsed at the last election);

You know that's not in the least scientific. It might be true, but not on the basis of presented evidence (none).

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