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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:43 
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Fucking cunts.


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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:31 
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Is it OK to feel a bit uncomfortable about the Invictus Games? And help for heroes? It seems too nationalistic for me.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:08 
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Trying to remortgage so I can buy my ex out as a "single" parent with one income mostly eaten up by childcare bills... I feel your pain :(


Utmost respect.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:09 
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Pistorious not guilty of murder.

May still get culpable homicide verdict (manslaughter).

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:21 
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Curiosity wrote:
Pistorious not guilty of murder.

May still get culpable homicide verdict (manslaughter).


If you think there is someone, anyone, behind a door that you then fire four shots through and they end up dead, I don't see how it could be anything less than manslaughter.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:27 
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Sleepyhead

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flis wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
Pistorious not guilty of murder.

May still get culpable homicide verdict (manslaughter).


If you think there is someone, anyone, behind a door that you then fire four shots through and they end up dead, I don't see how it could be anything less than manslaughter.


Indeed. It was always the most likely verdict, IMO.

If it does go that way the sentencing is interesting as the judge has leeway. Could go as low as a fine, as high as 15 years.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:32 
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flis wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
Pistorious not guilty of murder.<br abp="860"><br abp="861">May still get culpable homicide verdict (manslaughter).
<br abp="862"><br abp="863">If you think there is someone, anyone, behind a door that you then fire four shots through and they end up dead, I don't see how it could be anything less than manslaughter.


Well, if it's an intruder then it's not a problem, you see. Not sure if SA is the same as the US, but you can certainly shoot trespassers in a lot of countries. Not everywhere is as civilised as here.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 14:43 
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Well, he's getting done for culpable homicide, so that's that.

Sentencing will be interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 15:35 
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Curiosity wrote:
Well, he's getting done for culpable homicide, so that's that.

Sentencing will be interesting.


The comments suggest that culpable homicide is likely, but we're not getting the verdict till tomorrow according to the beeb.


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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 15:51 
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MaliA wrote:
Is it OK to feel a bit uncomfortable about the Invictus Games? And help for heroes? It seems too nationalistic for me.


Isn't it an international event? Or do you just mean the nationalism of pride for the armed services? Help for heroes makes me feel a bit squiffy at times, biut I think that is teh word 'heroes'. Being a wounded soldier does not a hero make. I am sure there are many heroic people in the armed forces, but i am also sure there are many people tha are not.

I think a games designed for people who are unbreaten ('invictus?') by injury is a good thing - I'm not sure whether a specific games for service personnel has a greater meaning than this and if this should be seperate from the spectacular paralympics, though?

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 15:56 
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Mimi wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Is it OK to feel a bit uncomfortable about the Invictus Games? And help for heroes? It seems too nationalistic for me.


Isn't it an international event? Or do you just mean the nationalism of pride for the armed services? Help for heroes makes me feel a bit squiffy at times, biut I think that is teh word 'heroes'. Being a wounded soldier does not a hero make. I am sure there are many heroic people in the armed forces, but i am also sure there are many people tha are not.

Careful where you say that. Anyone who ever joins the armed forces is now automatically a saintly hero. I think they realised that canonising them all was cheaper than paying decent wages.


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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 15:58 
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Isn't that lovely?

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But is that not like saying: "There shouldn't be a Commonwealth games because we already have the Olympic games?"

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 16:00 
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No. It is like saying we shouldn't have the commonwealth games as it promotes aggressive tendencies to other nations, including invasion and enslavement of their populace.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 16:25 
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Remember my filming escapades? I've just spoken to the producer and I think I may have landed the main role.

Fingers crossed I may be speaking on camera. Wow... A speaking role.

I only wish Harry Hills tv burp was still on. He'd be bound to cover my wooden acting skills.


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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 16:54 
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Don't forget to thank us at the Oscars!


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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 17:51 
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Great stuff!


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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:34 
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Curiosity wrote:
Pistorious not guilty of murder.

May still get culpable homicide verdict (manslaughter).

Pistorius Guilty of homicide.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:37 
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Grim... wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
Pistorious not guilty of murder.

May still get culpable homicide verdict (manslaughter).

Pistorius Guilty of homicide.

Well, obviously. He fired a gun at someone who wasn't an intruder and they died.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:47 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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Your faith in the justice system is cute. :)


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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:54 
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Trooper wrote:
Your faith in the justice system is cute. :)

You have to have faith in it. In the Western world they get it right more often than not.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:24 
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American Nervoso wrote:
Trooper wrote:
Your faith in the justice system is cute. :)

You have to have faith in it. In the Western world they get it right more often than not.

That's not faith, that statistics!


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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:30 
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There is still doubt as to whether he will be locked up though. It could just be a massive fine, such is the faithful justice system ;)


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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:32 
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Bobbyaro wrote:
American Nervoso wrote:
Trooper wrote:
Your faith in the justice system is cute. :)

You have to have faith in it. In the Western world they get it right more often than not.

That's not faith, that statistics!

I have faith in statistics.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:40 
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Grim... wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
Pistorious not guilty of murder.

May still get culpable homicide verdict (manslaughter).

Pistorius Guilty of homicide.


It seemed all along that would be the charge. Simply not enough evidence to convict on murder of Reeva. Could have feasibly gone for common-law murder, and that's the only point from the judge that seems odd. She is saying by the conviction that any reasonable person would have known the shooting could cause death, but excusing him from murder on the basis that he's not a reasonable person.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:59 
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Trooper wrote:
There is still doubt as to whether he will be locked up though. It could just be a massive fine, such is the faithful justice system ;)


I don't see what the issue with 'just' a massive fine is? The prison system is overcrowded, it's expensive to lock people up, why not a fine...?

What is the purpose of a prison sentence? You won't deter people from having loaded guns in their bedrooms in South Africa, you won't make the type of person who fires a gun out of anxiety or fear think before they do it.

Getting retribution for her death is one thing but I imagine the horror of the event and the last 8 six months won't be made better for anyone by locking him away.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:09 
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It would surely encourage and reassure people that they can shoot someone with relative impunity, if there's a chance they can argue that they weren't expect it to kill the person.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:16 
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Protection of others isn't going to be done by a fine...


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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:25 
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Curiosity wrote:
It would surely encourage and reassure people that they can shoot someone with relative impunity, if there's a chance they can argue that they weren't expect it to kill the person.


Most people would think you an idiot if you used that as a defence for shooting someone - he got a fine so why don't I? It might bring into question why rich people can get way without going to prison but I don't know how it works. I assume there's more to it than if you can't pay the fine, you go jail.

A fine as an alternative to a custodial sentence is there for a reason, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for it to be implemented in this case but I'm not a judge and I'm not familiar with sentencing procedure in SA.

Also, he can't be deemed as that much of a threat to others, or they'd have remanded him without bail, surely? Is he a straight up bad guy? Obviously the judge doesn't think so if she believes his anxious disposition due to his disability had a part to play, or he'd have been found guilty on a greater charge.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:43 
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flis wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
It would surely encourage and reassure people that they can shoot someone with relative impunity, if there's a chance they can argue that they weren't expect it to kill the person.


Most people would think you an idiot if you used that as a defence for shooting someone - he got a fine so why don't I? It might bring into question why rich people can get way without going to prison but I don't know how it works. I assume there's more to it than if you can't pay the fine, you go jail.

A fine as an alternative to a custodial sentence is there for a reason, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for it to be implemented in this case but I'm not a judge and I'm not familiar with sentencing procedure in SA.

Also, he can't be deemed as that much of a threat to others, or they'd have remanded him without bail, surely? Is he a straight up bad guy? Obviously the judge doesn't think so if she believes his anxious disposition due to his disability had a part to play, or he'd have been found guilty on a greater charge.



So basically if you are rich you can avoid jail.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:46 
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KovacsC wrote:
flis wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
It would surely encourage and reassure people that they can shoot someone with relative impunity, if there's a chance they can argue that they weren't expect it to kill the person.


Most people would think you an idiot if you used that as a defence for shooting someone - he got a fine so why don't I? It might bring into question why rich people can get way without going to prison but I don't know how it works. I assume there's more to it than if you can't pay the fine, you go jail.

A fine as an alternative to a custodial sentence is there for a reason, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for it to be implemented in this case but I'm not a judge and I'm not familiar with sentencing procedure in SA.

Also, he can't be deemed as that much of a threat to others, or they'd have remanded him without bail, surely? Is he a straight up bad guy? Obviously the judge doesn't think so if she believes his anxious disposition due to his disability had a part to play, or he'd have been found guilty on a greater charge.



So basically if you are rich you can avoid jail.

Bernie Eccelstone recently did exactly that.


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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:50 
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DavPaz wrote:
KovacsC wrote:
flis wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
It would surely encourage and reassure people that they can shoot someone with relative impunity, if there's a chance they can argue that they weren't expect it to kill the person.


Most people would think you an idiot if you used that as a defence for shooting someone - he got a fine so why don't I? It might bring into question why rich people can get way without going to prison but I don't know how it works. I assume there's more to it than if you can't pay the fine, you go jail.

A fine as an alternative to a custodial sentence is there for a reason, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for it to be implemented in this case but I'm not a judge and I'm not familiar with sentencing procedure in SA.

Also, he can't be deemed as that much of a threat to others, or they'd have remanded him without bail, surely? Is he a straight up bad guy? Obviously the judge doesn't think so if she believes his anxious disposition due to his disability had a part to play, or he'd have been found guilty on a greater charge.



So basically if you are rich you can avoid jail.

Bernie Eccelstone recently did exactly that.


It is not right.. but I suppose it is the way of the world

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:53 
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I'd assume any fine would be means tested to avoid exactly that. Then again, South Africa.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:58 
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I am sure the fine would cost an arm and a l.... oh wait!

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:14 
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KovacsC wrote:
I am sure the fine would cost an arm and a l.... oh wait!

*sigh*

:D


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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:17 
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I'm surprised he got off the murder charge, I didn't think he had a...

*shoots one-self through bathroom door*


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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:41 
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He was born with a congenital absence of the femur which meant he had to have a double-amputation at the age of 11 months.

He doesn't have a leg to stand on! HAHAHA.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 13:18 
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flis wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
It would surely encourage and reassure people that they can shoot someone with relative impunity, if there's a chance they can argue that they weren't expect it to kill the person.


Most people would think you an idiot if you used that as a defence for shooting someone - he got a fine so why don't I? It might bring into question why rich people can get way without going to prison but I don't know how it works. I assume there's more to it than if you can't pay the fine, you go jail.

A fine as an alternative to a custodial sentence is there for a reason, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for it to be implemented in this case but I'm not a judge and I'm not familiar with sentencing procedure in SA.

Also, he can't be deemed as that much of a threat to others, or they'd have remanded him without bail, surely? Is he a straight up bad guy? Obviously the judge doesn't think so if she believes his anxious disposition due to his disability had a part to play, or he'd have been found guilty on a greater charge.


The disposition appears to be key. The judge said that any reasonable person would have understood that firing four shots through a door could kill the person inside, but concluded that he could not be tried for murder as he could not be shown to have understood that.

Ergo, she concludes he's not a reasonable person.

Her true decision will really hinge on the sentencing. If she throws ten years at him she's clearly of a mind that he is a reckless danger to society. If he gets a short sentence or a suspended sentence then she is of the belief that he genuinely fucked up in an understandable fashion, given his circumstances, history, etc.

The judge seems pretty sensible and clinical, and obviously knows the laws and evidence better than any of us. I'm very interested to see her conclusions.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 13:36 
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I'm seeing too many 'THIS IS NOT JUSTICE FOR REEVA' posts on Facebook today. I'm having to be careful what I say.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 15:05 
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It's a similar story on the PistonHeads forum, where it seems the braying masses want him to feel the full brunt of the law because he's filthy murdering scum.


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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 15:17 
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See, this is what happens if you make a distinction between murder with intent and murder. You shoot a gun through a door, you are only trying to do one thing, you may fail or succeed, but a gun is a lethal weapon made for killing people, you shoot it, you intended to kill someone.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 15:22 
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Bobbyaro wrote:
you shoot it, you intended to kill someone.

Something. But yes.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 15:46 
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Bobbyaro wrote:
See, this is what happens if you make a distinction between murder with intent and murder. You shoot a gun through a door, you are only trying to do one thing, you may fail or succeed, but a gun is a lethal weapon made for killing people, you shoot it, you intended to kill someone.

It's the self defence angle that fucks about with this though.

Even in the UK, technically speaking you could legally shoot a mans to death if it was in self-defence (although I wouldn't fancy your chances of getting off scot-free)

If he genuinely thought it was an intruder and feared for his life, it's not murder. Of course, whether his story is genuine or not is another matter.


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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 15:50 
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yes it is murder. Potentially "justifiable" murder, but it is still murder - he was trying to kill someone.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 16:13 
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Bobbyaro wrote:
yes it is murder. Potentially "justifiable" murder, but it is still murder - he was trying to kill someone.

What if you were aiming for the legs and missed (or hit the femoral artery)?

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 16:15 
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Grim... wrote:
Bobbyaro wrote:
yes it is murder. Potentially "justifiable" murder, but it is still murder - he was trying to kill someone.

What if you were aiming for the legs and missed (or hit the femoral artery)?


Predictable consequences of shooting someone is that they die to most people.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 16:17 
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MaliA wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Bobbyaro wrote:
yes it is murder. Potentially "justifiable" murder, but it is still murder - he was trying to kill someone.

What if you were aiming for the legs and missed (or hit the femoral artery)?

Predictable consequences of shooting someone is that they die to most people.

Depends how dumb you are or how much you believe movies, I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 16:32 
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Grim... wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Bobbyaro wrote:
yes it is murder. Potentially "justifiable" murder, but it is still murder - he was trying to kill someone.

What if you were aiming for the legs and missed (or hit the femoral artery)?

Predictable consequences of shooting someone is that they die to most people.

Depends how dumb you are or how much you believe movies, I guess.

In law the base line is pretty low.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 16:35 
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Bobbyaro wrote:
yes it is murder. Potentially "justifiable" murder, but it is still murder - he was trying to kill someone.

So are soldiers murderers?

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 16:40 
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American Nervoso wrote:
Bobbyaro wrote:
yes it is murder. Potentially "justifiable" murder, but it is still murder - he was trying to kill someone.

So are soldiers murderers?


No, they just defend the established patriarchy.

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 Post subject: Re: B&B 43
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 16:43 
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MaliA wrote:
American Nervoso wrote:
Bobbyaro wrote:
yes it is murder. Potentially "justifiable" murder, but it is still murder - he was trying to kill someone.

So are soldiers murderers?


No, they just defend the established patriarchy.

Isn't that what Pistorius was doing?

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