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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 14:41 
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@Cras

I'm sure you're right and I don't disagree, but my point is that, with the advent of the internet these things are vastly more easily formed, and thus become much more prevalent, influential and relevant. Not in a good way.

We're in danger of hysteria, ignorance, nationalism, misinformation and propaganda trumping facts, knowledge and rational debate, and we know where that can end up.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 14:42 
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Cavey wrote:
@Cras

I'm sure you're right and I don't disagree, but my point is that, with the advent of the internet these things are vastly more easily formed, and thus become much more prevalent, influential and relevant. Not in a good way.

We're in danger of hysteria, ignorance, nationalism, misinformation and propaganda trumping facts, knowledge and rational debate, and we know where that can end up.


"President Trump"

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 14:45 
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Precisely.

Question is: could someone like Trump have been elected, say, 20 years ago?
What about the UK Brexit vote and all the misinformation that went with it?
What about nationalism sweeping across the globe?

How much of this is due to people living in a post-truth world driven by petty prejudice etc., because it's "comfortable" and surrounded by self-reinforcing like-minded types also saying the same thing, pseudo legitimisation of hitherto socially unacceptable views? A triumph of bigotry over facts, where facts don't actually count for much, and expert opinion even less (in fact, is viewed in contempt?)

Since when did the bare truth of a given situation count for so little?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 14:46 
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Valid questions.

As is: Did people just as bad or worse did get in but we didn't hear about it?

Though there are obvious nationalist types who have risen to power in ostensibly smart democracies in the past.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 14:55 
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Cavey wrote:
Precisely.

Question is: could someone like Trump have been elected, say, 20 years ago?
No I don't think he could and I think that the internet has certainly been a facilitating factor but I also think the groundswell of opinions came far earlier than mass internet use. Decades of Daily Express and Daily Mail headlines, our own fucking foreign secretary writing total nonsense about Brussels in his columns. Right wing talk radio in America, Fox news etc etc. All of those as well as 9/11 and other attacks created the climate that was just ripe for extremists like Trump and Farage to exploit. Loads of factors really.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 14:56 
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Curiosity wrote:
Kern wrote:
Credit where credit's due. According to the Guardian, the government's accepted an amendment to the Children & Social Work bill making sex education an obligatory part of the national curriculum. I'm actually surprised it currently isn't.


Apart from (AFAIK) they are going to allow Faith Schools to ignore it. So near, and yet so far.


Agree. It's frustrating, because good sex and relationship education is so important to people's lives that's it more immoral to not be honest and instructive to kids than to gloss over, ignore, or lie about about such things. Probably the government decided not to go all the way because they didn't want a noisy argument.

The Beeb are reporting that the government will run a consultation on content later in the year.

The sex education I had in school in the 1990s was appallingly bad, once we got past the basics of biology and different forms of protection.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 15:11 
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markg wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Precisely.

Question is: could someone like Trump have been elected, say, 20 years ago?
No I don't think he could and I think that the internet has certainly been a facilitating factor but I also think the groundswell of opinions came far earlier than mass internet use. Decades of Daily Express and Daily Mail headlines, our own fucking foreign secretary writing total nonsense about Brussels in his columns. Right wing talk radio in America, Fox news etc etc. All of those as well as 9/11 and other attacks created the climate that was just ripe for extremists like Trump and Farage to exploit. Loads of factors really.


I'm inclined to agree but as I said to Cras before, these things were (kind of) always there, but it's the internet - and more accurately an evolution that seems to be occurring over time due to the mass-accessibility of the net and "othering" (e.g. nationalist-driven) internet-based groups - that has become the mass-vehicle for this. So whereas the *potential* has been there for a long time, and increasing no doubt, it's only really now - in this post-mass use of internet capable smart phones etc. and highly evolved virtual social networks/networking - that there's only now this apparent step change and mass-movement.

If this hypothesis is even remotely right, I can't see Pandora's Box closing any time soon. Ignorance is indeed strength.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 15:14 
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Wasn't the problem with Alf Garnett that too many people didn't realise he was a parody?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 15:20 
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Cavey wrote:
Precisely.

Question is: could someone like Trump have been elected, say, 20 years ago?

Could Reagan?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 15:23 
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Kern wrote:
Wasn't the problem with Alf Garnett that too many people didn't realise he was a parody?


Al Murray has also said that's why he stopped 'doing' The Pub Landlord

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 15:24 
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And started doing jingoistic WWII docos.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 20:00 
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Lords defeat for the government; the upper House passed (by 358 to 256) an amendment to the A50 bill protecting the rights of EU citizens living in the UK.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 20:05 
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Quote:
Lords defeat for the government; the upper House passed (by 358 to 256) an amendment to the A50 bill protecting the rights of EU citizens living in the UK.


This needed to be sorted out, but don't see very much on protecting the rights of UK citizens living in the EU?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 20:05 
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asfish wrote:
This needed to be sorted out, but don't see very much on protecting the rights of UK citizens living in the EU?

How can the UK make law about that? Think about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 20:26 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
asfish wrote:
This needed to be sorted out, but don't see very much on protecting the rights of UK citizens living in the EU?

How can the UK make law about that? Think about it.


Of course we can't, but maybe its better to be able to hold the protection of EU Citizens as a bargaining chip in the Article 50 negotiations to get the same deal for UK people in the EU, rather than playing the card before we start?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 20:28 
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asfish wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
asfish wrote:
This needed to be sorted out, but don't see very much on protecting the rights of UK citizens living in the EU?

How can the UK make law about that? Think about it.


Of course we can't, but maybe its better to be able to hold the protection of EU Citizens as a bargaining chip in the Article 50 negotiations to get the same deal for UK people in the EU, rather than playing the card before we start?


The rest of the EU aren't morons trying to kick out their immigrant population.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 20:30 
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Cras wrote:
asfish wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
asfish wrote:
This needed to be sorted out, but don't see very much on protecting the rights of UK citizens living in the EU?

How can the UK make law about that? Think about it.


Of course we can't, but maybe its better to be able to hold the protection of EU Citizens as a bargaining chip in the Article 50 negotiations to get the same deal for UK people in the EU, rather than playing the card before we start?


The rest of the EU aren't morons trying to kick out their immigrant population.


Are the UK? I thought that reducing numbers going forward was a key focus, but not aware we the UK was going to boot people out after we leave the EU?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 20:31 
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Using people's lives and livelihoods as bargaining chips. Lovely.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 20:35 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Using people's lives and livelihoods as bargaining chips. Lovely.


All I mean is that we request the same stability for all the EU citizens, including all the UK ones who live in the EU

Not saying we start swapping peoples right to live in the UK for better trade deals etc


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 20:42 
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asfish wrote:
reducing numbers going forward was a key focus, but not aware we the UK was going to boot people out after we leave the EU?


Reducing numbers in itself is moronic. We are a low birth rate nation with a huge and expensive elderly population. We desperately need immigration.

Just last week we brought in the minimum spouse wage rule and started booting people out as a result.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:34 
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A warm and cosy Bercow yesterday, during Church Commissioner's Questions:

Quote:
I hope the Hansard text of the right hon. Lady’s reply to the hon. Gentleman will be posted on the church door. That would seem only fitting.


Also, a line from him just saying 'splendid' later on is very pleasing.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:42 
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There were some nice tributes to the late Gerald Kaufman during the weekly House business debate yesterday, including this gem:

Jeff Smith wrote:
Residents often told me how they had written ​to Sir Gerald and received a hand-written reply. Sometimes, the replies would reflect his sharp tongue; a particular favourite of mine was:

“I agree with your concerns on this issue. Unfortunately there’s no point in me writing to the chancellor because he’s useless and won’t listen to me.”


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:24 
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Theresa May is awful. She's making a speech to the Scottish Conservatives putting forward the case for Scotland staying in the UK. Pretty much all of her arguments could be translated for the UK to stay in the EU.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:42 
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Well, yes, but she did vote to Remain, right?

Of more interest, I feel, is that the self-same arguments the SNP use for staying in the EU can largely be equally used for staying in the UK.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:45 
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A UK within the EU, agreed. Which is why they voted to stay in the UK in 2014.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 15:19 
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Lonewolves wrote:
A UK within the EU, agreed. Which is why they voted to stay in the UK in 2014.


https://twitter.com/kevverage/status/837630957146550272




And if you have more time

https://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2017/ ... right.html

This guy spends much of his time busting Nat nonsense, propaganda and memes. He's got more patience and gumption in his little finger than I will ever possess in my whole body, that's for sure. I wouldn't make it through a single day of the crap he endures.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 15:23 
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Cavey wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
A UK within the EU, agreed. Which is why they voted to stay in the UK in 2014.


https://twitter.com/kevverage/status/837630957146550272




And if you have more time

https://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2017/ ... right.html

This guy spends much of his time busting Nat nonsense, propaganda and memes. He's got more patience and gumption is is little finger than I will ever possess, that's for sure.

I can't see any of his memes on that site. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 15:25 
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Nat's memes..? Trust me, he's full of 'em. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:29 
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Imagine if you uncovered a Watergate-sized phone tapping scandal but you have such a short attention span that thirty minutes later you were tweeting about a TV show.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 13:03 
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I literally just do not know where to start with Trump; he makes Corbyn look like Father of the Nation material. ?:Stack Overflow:

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 14:27 
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Cavey wrote:
I literally just do not know where to start with Trump; he makes Corbyn look like Father of the Nation material. ?:Stack Overflow:


Maybe Corbyn is looking at him and thinking, "Well, I guess if they think he's qualified then I am too".

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 14:43 
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#block-58bd310be4b047c20d905db8" class="postlink">"Almost half of Labour members think Corbyn is doing badly as leader"

Ouch.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 15:05 
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MaliA wrote:
#block-58bd310be4b047c20d905db8" class="postlink">"Almost half of Labour members think Corbyn is doing badly as leader"

Ouch.


Yes, but consider this Mali: more than half of them think he *isn't* doing badly as leader.
:blown:

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 15:11 
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Not necessarily. Some of them might not think anything at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 15:12 
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Zardoz wrote:
Not necessarily. Some of them might not think anything at all.


Ain't that the truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 15:47 
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I can see how if you disregard the media and polls and that, how you could believe he was doing a good job, much like how Trump supporters who read Breitbart don't even know Trump has had any scandals.

I can't see how there was still a decent chunk saying he was 'very likely' to win the next election!

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 16:02 
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Curiosity wrote:
I can see how if you disregard the media and polls and that, how you could believe he was doing a good job, much like how Trump supporters who read Breitbart don't even know Trump has had any scandals.


Even entirely disregarding the media and polls (which you know, are pretty big things to disregard for would-be prime ministers and politicians), on what possible criteria could he be judged to be "doing a good job"...? His party is self-destructing, his MPs have mutinied, he's failed a vote of no-confidence and he can't even fill his Shadow cabinet; his position on things like Brexit is a joke. As for policies - and a whole bunch of stuff re Israel/Middle East/N. Ireland etc., I'm not even going to go there.

Fundamentally, there's a reason why Labour's support is utterly *tanking*, and it isn't all down to Teh Evils Right Wing Press.

By any sane, rational measure, he's very, very far from "doing a good job".

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 16:10 
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Tribalism rarely includes the ability to be honestly self-critical about the tribe you've hitched yourself to.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 16:12 
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Cras wrote:
Tribalism rarely includes the ability to be honestly self-critical about the tribe you've hitched yourself to.


Very, very true.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 16:14 
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Cavey wrote:
Cras wrote:
Tribalism rarely includes the ability to be honestly self-critical about the tribe you've hitched yourself to.


Very, very true.


Exactly.

They see him as standing up to the bad guys and that he's fighting the good fight against Teh Evils. It requires a fairly hefty dose of self-delusion.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 16:14 
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Cras wrote:
Tribalism rarely includes the ability to be honestly self-critical about the tribe you've hitched yourself to.

Interestingly I cancelled my Labour membership due to Corbyn's waving through of the govt's unamended Brexit bill. I think I'm going to stay out of party politics for a while as none of them seem to represent me at the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 16:15 
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Cavey wrote:
Cras wrote:
Tribalism rarely includes the ability to be honestly self-critical about the tribe you've hitched yourself to.


Very, very true.

:DD

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 16:22 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Cras wrote:
Tribalism rarely includes the ability to be honestly self-critical about the tribe you've hitched yourself to.


Very, very true.

:DD


Heh. Laugh away, Myp, but I feel perfectly comfortable with my critical faculties and ability to be fair-minded and halfway objective at least - unlike some I could mention!

I know you were a fan IIRC, but Corbyn is an utter chump - far worse than even *I* thought he was going to be (bearing in mind I predicted he'd tear his party apart, so that's saying something). So, call a spade a spade.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 16:24 
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this is amazing


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 16:25 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
this is amazing


Oh please. Just don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 16:31 
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Cavey wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Cras wrote:
Tribalism rarely includes the ability to be honestly self-critical about the tribe you've hitched yourself to.


Very, very true.

:DD


Heh. Laugh away, Myp

Oh I will, don't worry. ;)

Cavey wrote:
I feel perfectly comfortable with my critical faculties and ability to be fair-minded and halfway objective at least

If you say so. :D

Cavey wrote:
I know you were a fan IIRC, but Corbyn is an utter chump - far worse than even *I* thought he was going to be (bearing in mind I predicted he'd tear his party apart, so that's saying something). So, call a spade a spade.

I was a "fan" only in the way that his aims and ideals matched a lot of what I also believed. It's now obvious that he won't be able to deliver on anything he promises and he has proved to be a complete shambles of a leader. I am not happy saying this as I hoped he would have been much better, but I am not too proud to admit he is not the answer to the country's problems (not that May or the Tories are either, at all).

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 16:36 
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Right, so as per usual, you and Gaywood turn the discussion into another bitter snark-fest about me personally, wow how original, how relevant. :insincere:

Got anything to say about what we're discussing here, instead of either me somehow failing your oh-so-high standards, and/or just trolling?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 16:44 
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I'm not snarking bitterly, I'm genuinely laughing at how high over your head the point of Cras's post sailed. Carry on!

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 16:50 
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Lonewolves wrote:
I think I'm going to stay out of party politics for a while as none of them seem to represent me at the moment.


If I didn't think keeping up to date with current events and trends was an important civic duty I'd probably spend the next few years avoiding it all and concentrating on good things. It's all rather depressing at the moment, and I feel in a similar way about the lack of representation.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 16:50 
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Cavey wrote:
Got anything to say about what we're discussing here, instead of either me somehow failing your oh-so-high standards and/or trolling?

nah you're alright


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