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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:57 
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Based on what I heard on the radio this morning and what I've read online, it sounds like the whole affair was even more frustratingly bad than having to listen to an average audience member on a regular episode of 'Question Time'. It's almost as if political leadership and communication requires a particular set of skills, and whilst we might rail against 'career politicians', those who lack these abilities are found out pretty quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:47 
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I think that you can be a politician by being an exceptional, intelligent sort of person or by being merely average but having had the right education and training like Cameron et al. Trump's problem is that he is neither of these things.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:58 
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Does he at least call it "nuclear" and not "nukular" ?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:11 
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GazChap wrote:
Does he at least call it "nuclear" and not "nukular" ?

Getting him to say nukular rather than " fun bang bang toys" was a problem. Expecting anything more is unrealistic.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 15:44 
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Mr Dave wrote:
GazChap wrote:
Does he at least call it "nuclear" and not "nukular" ?

Getting him to say nukular rather than " fun bang bang toys" was a problem. Expecting anything more is unrealistic.


They should have limited him to, "Yes!" and, "That would be an ecumenical matter."

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 15:53 
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This guy - not Evan Davis - is a fucking moron. Or, to make it more explicit - he comes across as one here. He may or may not be so elsewhere.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39000118


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 18:46 
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Quote:
Also, his tweets increasingly sound like something the old man from the mill shouts between the Scooby Gang unmasking him and the police taking him away.


:DD

With Trump some days you worry he is going to start World War III then other days you read his tweets and its just like you describe.

For me there is the odd time when I like what he says, usually he has been rude and broken some international protocol and for a second it make me laugh, just because nobody else does it.

Then its back to the worry of him really being the President :o


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 21:01 
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http://doonesbury.washingtonpost.com/strip/set/89

crikey

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:59 
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Article in the 'Washington Post' (I think I ran out of free links this month a long time ago) about the views of Mr Trump's fans at his rally. I honestly don't know how you could start communicating to these people.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:09 
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You can't. The ones at rallies are just too far gone.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:33 
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Hmm... the House of Lords is discussing the Brexit bill glorious declaration of our independence today whilst the antechamber of the Commons is discussing Mr Trump's Golden Ticket. Action in the main Commons Chamber is the report stage and third reading of the Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill. What a choice of viewing.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 15:20 
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Kern wrote:
Article in the 'Washington Post' (I think I ran out of free links this month a long time ago) about the views of Mr Trump's fans at his rally. I honestly don't know how you could start communicating to these people.


I can only imagine them seeing sense after the four years are up and everything has turned to crap, but even then they'd probably blame anyone but Trump. In that article, the supporters are very dismissive of the media and their 'fake news' and yet that whole Swedish thing was something Trump saw on Fox which doesn't sound great. Even when Trump explained his comments on Twitter and lots in Sweden pointed out his error, the supporters all started posting sources backing up Trump, usually the Daily Express it seems.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 21:54 
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Fuck me.
Quote:
The survey found that the Tories were on 44%, up two points, while Labour were on 26%, down one. UKIP were on 13% and the Liberal Democrats on 8%.

When challenged by former Shadow Chancellor Chris Leslie to explain the huge poll lead, Corbyn replied: “Of course I understand what’s going on and the problems we have had in the media.”

But he added that “we do a lot better on social media”,




Thanks to MrPSB

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 22:12 
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Apparently the Labour Grand Plan is to hope that the Tories split over Brexit and that declining living standards will make people vote Labour.

That's a plan that even Baldrick would be ashamed of.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 22:28 
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MaliA wrote:
Fuck me.
Quote:
The survey found that the Tories were on 44%, up two points, while Labour were on 26%, down one. UKIP were on 13% and the Liberal Democrats on 8%.

When challenged by former Shadow Chancellor Chris Leslie to explain the huge poll lead, Corbyn replied: “Of course I understand what’s going on and the problems we have had in the media.”

But he added that “we do a lot better on social media”,

Thanks to MrPSB

Fake news, I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 15:26 
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I'm p. glad we're giving our NHS £350m a week: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-39031546


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 15:41 
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Latest Guardian poll puts the Tories at 44% and Labour on 26%

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

My only hope is that Corbyn doesn't "peak" too early following the forthcoming by-elections and they get rid. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 15:42 
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Cavey wrote:

My only hope is that Corbyn doesn't "peak" too early following the forthcoming by-elections and they get rid. :(

Why do you think it is better for there to be no functioning opposition at this crucial point in British political history?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 15:56 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Cavey wrote:

My only hope is that Corbyn doesn't "peak" too early following the forthcoming by-elections and they get rid. :(

Why do you think it is better for there to be no functioning opposition at this crucial point in British political history?


You know why.
I genuinely believe (like many people, increasing every day) that most of the big calls Labour have ever made have turned out to have been shit for one reason or another, most especially in economic terms - however doubtless well-intentioned in many cases, or whatever.

So, logically speaking, if something's almost invariably shit, why lament its lack of influence?

If you're asking me: would I like to see a strong, effective, robust and knowledgeable, grown up Opposition formed of intelligent, diverse people from all walks of REAL life and business, well, that's fair enough - but that's just never going to be Labour. Look at them now FFS. As an intelligent man of business and commerce, with a responsible management and technical role, would you seriously trust them to do or run anything? No, I think not.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 16:02 
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Curiosity wrote:
Apparently the Labour Grand Plan is to hope that the Tories split over Brexit and that declining living standards will make people vote Labour.

That's a plan that even Baldrick would be ashamed of.


I reckon if you emptied Corbyn's satchel you'd quite possibly find a wooden duck, kid's miniature trumpet and a Robin Hood outfit. :D (Apologies to Blackadder series 4, ep. 2, Corporal Punishment)

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 16:18 
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Cavey wrote:
Latest Guardian poll puts the Tories at 44% and Labour on 26%

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/


UKIP are at 13% whilst the Great Lib Dem Fightback has made a tactical retreat back to 8% whilst they regroup and bide their time. Just like they did in the late 1920s for, er, sixty years.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 16:24 
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Let's be honest though, as an electoral prospect, Fallon isn't much better than Corbyn; he has all the charisma and magnetism of cloakroom receipt. Nice enough, well meaning guy and all that, but come on.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 16:41 
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Kern wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Latest Guardian poll puts the Tories at 44% and Labour on 26%

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/


UKIP are at 13% whilst the Great Lib Dem Fightback has made a tactical retreat back to 8% whilst they regroup and bide their time. Just like they did in the late 1920s for, er, sixty years.


The other day I did one of those online tests to see if any of the parties vaguely matched my opinions -
Attachment:
uk2015.png

Looks like I might need to pay more attention to the Green Party in future. Er, not that many others will.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 16:42 
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Move to Brighton.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 16:43 
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How are the Green party libertarian?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 16:43 
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All that pot.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 16:43 
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Kern wrote:
Move to Brighton.


Brighton is, surprisingly, not a shit place.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 16:44 
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Isn't that lovely?

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Are ukipreally lessright leaning than the Tories?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 16:46 
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I don't really pay too much attention to these kind of things. I mean, for example, every mainstream UK party is right wing or right of centre - and the BNP are *considerably* to the left of both Labour and the Lib Dems?

Who comes up with this stuff?
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
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:D :kiss:

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 16:56 
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Malc wrote:
Are ukipreally lessright leaning than the Tories?


Fiscally? Yes. Left/Right on that graph is economic policy, not social policy.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 16:58 
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Cavey wrote:
I don't really pay too much attention to these kind of things. I mean, for example, every mainstream UK party is right wing or right of centre - and the BNP are *considerably* to the left of both Labour and the Lib Dems?

Who comes up with this stuff?


https://bnp.org.uk/policies/economy/

Quote:
Accordingly, the BNP calls for the selective exclusion of foreign-made goods from British markets and the reduction of foreign imports. We will ensure that our manufactured goods are, wherever possible, produced in British factories, employing British workers.

When this is done, unemployment in this country will be brought to an end and secure, well-paid employment will flourish.

We further believe that British industry, commerce, land and other economic and natural assets belong in the final analysis to the British nation and people.

To that end the BNP will restore our economy and land to British ownership and will take active steps to break up the socially, economically and politically damaging monopolies now being established by the supermarket giants.

Fully cognisant of the reality that economic growth is driven primarily by true free enterprise, a BNP government will seek to give British workers a stake in the success and prosperity of the enterprises whose profits their labour creates. Such schemes are the only guarantee of workers being motivated to ensure the success of their employers.
Ending free trade; stronger worker's rights at the expense of capital's rights; state ownership or state planning to replace laissez-faire free markets. Yup, that's left of both Tory and Labour.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 17:12 
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I don't deny that the BNP are protectionist and to that limited extent "left wing", but there is the small matter of the elephant in the room, i.e. pretty much the rest of the stuff they believe in. I'm sure I could find a few policies of, say, the SNP, like reducing Corporation Tax, but the odd one or two outerlyer policies in the mix does not define an party's overall political complexion.

Anyway, this wasn't even my main beef? The biggest problem, for me, is that pretty much every party is defined as right of centre or right wing, which (IMO) is nonsense.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 17:15 
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You *do* understand that's a two-dimensional graph, right? And what the two axes mean?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 17:19 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
You *do* understand that's a two-dimensional graph, right? And what the two axes mean?


You *do* understand that I'm ONLY talking about ONE of those axes, right? Political alignment?

Note I have not said the graph makes NO DISTINCTION between the BNP or Party X or Y.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 17:20 
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They're both political alignment; as Cras said one is economic policy and the other is social policy.

I STILL DON'T GET HOW THE GREENS ARE LIBERTARIAN THO

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 17:21 
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Cavey wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
You *do* understand that's a two-dimensional graph, right? And what the two axes mean?


You *do* understand that I'm ONLY talking about ONE of those axes, right? Political alignment?

So, no, then, you do not.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 17:22 
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Lonewolves wrote:
I STILL DON'T GET HOW THE GREENS ARE LIBERTARIAN THO

Nor me. I'd class the Greens as somewhat authoritarian.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 17:22 
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UKIP looks a long way north of where a lot of their economic policies lie too. Not that I really pay attention to many of their other policies.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 17:35 
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Cavey wrote:
Anyway, this wasn't even my main beef? The biggest problem, for me, is that pretty much every party is defined as right of centre or right wing, which (IMO) is nonsense.


I take your point, that you would expect that the 'centre' would be the average position. I wonder if there is some 'absolute' scale they're using there.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 17:40 
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Isn't that lovely?

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I assume it's not a quotient, and indeed has far right 100% free market at one end and far left share everything equally and fairly at the other.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 17:41 
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I assume it's a simple plus or minus point against each question. So if you favour hanging over community service you get a point added to your authoritarian score.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 17:42 
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Cras wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Anyway, this wasn't even my main beef? The biggest problem, for me, is that pretty much every party is defined as right of centre or right wing, which (IMO) is nonsense.


I take your point, that you would expect that the 'centre' would be the average position. I wonder if there is some 'absolute' scale they're using there.

The three main parties have been right-leaning economically since the early- to mid-00s anyway. Possibly less so for Labour these days but who knows where they sit on these scales anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 17:45 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
You *do* understand that's a two-dimensional graph, right? And what the two axes mean?


You *do* understand that I'm ONLY talking about ONE of those axes, right? Political alignment?

So, no, then, you do not.


I was purely talking about left vs right, not authoritarian vs. libertarian. You jump on my head, because you mistakenly (and rather stupidly) believe I was somehow claiming left vs. right was the ONLY measure of a party/political stance, whereas in fact I never mentioned, nor needed to mention libertarian values (y-axis) in respect of the argument and observation *I* was making, i.e.:

Cavey wrote:
I don't really pay too much attention to these kind of things. I mean, for example, every mainstream UK party is right wing or right of centre - and the BNP are *considerably* to the left of both Labour and the Lib Dems?



I point this out, and your numpty response is just to pretend none of this is actually the case and you play the man, not the ball. Again. :roll:

It's starting to dawn on me that, actually, you really don't have the first bloody clue, do you?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 17:45 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Cras wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Anyway, this wasn't even my main beef? The biggest problem, for me, is that pretty much every party is defined as right of centre or right wing, which (IMO) is nonsense.


I take your point, that you would expect that the 'centre' would be the average position. I wonder if there is some 'absolute' scale they're using there.

The three main parties have been right-leaning economically since the early- to mid-00s anyway. Possibly less so for Labour these days but who knows where they sit on these scales anymore.


That suggests there's an absolute centre though, which I wouldn't have said was the case.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 18:19 
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Lonewolves wrote:
The three main parties have been right-leaning economically since the early- to mid-00s anyway. Possibly less so for Labour these days but who knows where they sit on these scales anymore.

In the toilet, mainly.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 18:55 
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Guys, forget about the Political Compass. It's a Libertarian website. It's biased towards sticking you in the bottom half of the map unless you fill in their questionnaire with eyewateringly extreme stuff. The idea that there is more to politics than a simplistic, reductionist left/right axis is a good one, and valid, but that doesn't mean the Political Compass itself is valid.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 18:56 
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Cavey wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Cavey wrote:

My only hope is that Corbyn doesn't "peak" too early following the forthcoming by-elections and they get rid. :(

Why do you think it is better for there to be no functioning opposition at this crucial point in British political history?


You know why.
I genuinely believe (like many people, increasing every day) that most of the big calls Labour have ever made have turned out to have been shit for one reason or another, most especially in economic terms - however doubtless well-intentioned in many cases, or whatever.

So, logically speaking, if something's almost invariably shit, why lament its lack of influence?

If you're asking me: would I like to see a strong, effective, robust and knowledgeable, grown up Opposition formed of intelligent, diverse people from all walks of REAL life and business, well, that's fair enough - but that's just never going to be Labour. Look at them now FFS. As an intelligent man of business and commerce, with a responsible management and technical role, would you seriously trust them to do or run anything? No, I think not.

We already have one main centre-right party, one using increasingly nationalistic and right-wing. Why would we need another? Howabout a functional centre-left party to act as opposition to a (nominally) centre-right government?

(Honestly, the minute Labour collapses and we can have a sensible and inclusive centre-left party fill its place, I would be very happy.)


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 19:06 
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An inclusive centre-left party is difficult. It's no real wonder that Labour struggle to unify the old labour movement, which is all about workers rights and protectionism with the modern progressive left. They're in opposition on too many issues. Like, lest we forget, the EU.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 19:08 
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Plus, the policies don't work.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 19:14 
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Cras wrote:
An inclusive centre-left party is difficult. It's no real wonder that Labour struggle to unify the old labour movement, which is all about workers rights and protectionism with the modern progressive left. They're in opposition on too many issues. Like, lest we forget, the EU.

Many centre-left parties in different countries are facing similar problems at the moment: US Democrats, Italian Democrats, German Social Democrats, French Socialists. To varying degrees. Not that the centre-right has been unaffected by related issues, but the centre-left has been hit hardest.

Cavey wrote:
Plus, the policies don't work.

Yes, universal healthcare, the minimum wage, equality of opportunity, public spending on education and other public services – all centre-left policies and all garbage. :roll: I'm sure that you'll enjoy our country's Trumpy, Brexity future anyhow.


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