Be Excellent To Each Other

The problem is now that most Labour MPs are saying "right, well, we know that immigration is good, but the general public hate it, so we should say that we are going to control it in order to win votes back. Even though they're wrong and stupid."

I just don't think this is going to work.

I think it is very hard for The Left to have a discussion about immigration as I suspect it might cause cognitivevdisdonance. Corbyn's recent shift in stance was highlighted on Today and that seems to be a direct result of Brexit. It is a tricky one.

It cuts right to the quick of an uncomfortable division between the middle-class liberals [1] and the working class [2] that has existed in Labour since the party's very beginning. Turbulent waters to navigate. Not that the Conservatives are really any better off, with the split between pro-immigration business conservatives and often anti-immigration social conservatives.


[1] Who's jobs are definitely not threatened by immigration and are in an economic position to benefit from their own freedom of movement
[2] Who believe their jobs are threatened and do not see themselves as gaining from freedom of movement

the middle-class liberals [1] and the working class [2]

[1] Who's jobs are definitely not threatened by immigration and are in an economic position to benefit from their own freedom of movement
[2] Who believe their jobs are threatened and do not see themselves as gaining from freedom of movement

An interesting question I would like to put on the floor is: if you are in [1] (which I suspect we all are), how much truth do you think there is in [2]? Would anyone score it more than 0/10?

An interesting question I would like to put on the floor is: if you are in [1] (which I suspect we all are), how much truth do you think there is in [2]? Would anyone score it more than 0/10?

The dude who cut down a tree at our place was from Poland, and had been in the country for six years (he told me). His quote was lower than the local long-established companies by some horrific amount - something like £130 instead of £210 - £250.

He did a perfectly good job, so I can't see how he's not taking business from the people that were born here.

Still, that's because he's cheap, not because he's Polish. I guess the question in this case is - is he cheap because he's an immigrant?

But he's cheap because he's Polish, is the augment of the idiots.

bits and bats

But he's cheap because he's Polish, is the augment of the idiots.

Moving thousands of miles and across a significant language barrier is very difficult. Hence, only the most motivated of workers are going to do it. And being a more motivated worker means you are going to be the most willing to go the extra mile: work harder, work longer, charge less. I can easily believe that in unskilled or semi-skilled labour, charging less (and doing a better job) is correlated with being an immigrant.

I agree it probably does correlate, but to then be all like "fecking immigrants, coming over here and being motivated to work hard for less money, BASTARDS" is to sort of misunderstand capitalism. And it' d be these people who are the first to moan about unions, too.

I don't think the Doc is saying it's a rational fear. And as has been shown in all the anglosphere recently, pointing out facts and statistics does not work.

Yeah, I get that it's not rational - hence my "augment of idiots". comment.

Is this a West Yorkshire thing? The only person I ever hear say it is my father in law, who's from Halifax.

The problem with the schools/houses/doctors thing is that immigrants use the same amount of the first two and a lot less of the third (on average), whilst providing a much higher portion of funding via tax per capita (as long as they are legally employed and not cash in hand tax avoiders).

So the problem is 100% of the government (and sometimes council). They know how many people are here, they have a good handle on the trend lines, and they deliberately choose to underfund housing, schooling and the NHS.

But it's much easier to blame immigrants, because they're different and speak funny.

It cuts right to the quick of an uncomfortable division between the middle-class liberals [1] and the working class [2] that has existed in Labour since the party's very beginning. Turbulent waters to navigate. Not that the Conservatives are really any better off, with the split between pro-immigration business conservatives and often anti-immigration social conservatives.


[1] Who's jobs are definitely not threatened by immigration and are in an economic position to benefit from their own freedom of movement
[2] Who believe their jobs are threatened and do not see themselves as gaining from freedom of movement

]Conference, this party must fully face up to this fact: millions of lifelong Labour supporters voted to leave the EU and - let’s be honest - voted for change on immigration.

We haven’t yet even begun to show to them that we understand why.

I don’t want to hear this party make the patronising argument that people didn’t understand their referendum vote. They understood it very well.

The truth is the EU was working better for some parts of our country than it was for others.

For some of our country’s least affluent areas, it wasn’t working well at all ...

Labour voters in constituencies like mine are not narrow-minded, nor xenophobic, as some would say.

They are warm and giving. Their parents and grandparents welcomed thousands of Ukrainians and Poles to Leigh after the Second World War.

And today they continue to welcome refugees from all over the world. They have no problem with people coming here to work.

But they do have a problem with people taking them for granted and with unlimited, unfunded, unskilled migration which damages their own living standards.

And they have an even bigger problem with an out-of-touch elite who don’t seem to care about it.

If Labour now argues for the status quo, it will look like we have abandoned them too.

The truth is the EU was working better for some parts of our country than it was for others.

I don't think the Doc is saying it's a rational fear. And as has been shown in all the anglosphere recently, pointing out facts and statistics does not work.

The dude who cut down a tree at our place was from Poland, and had been in the country for six years (he told me). His quote was lower than the local long-established companies by some horrific amount - something like £130 instead of £210 - £250.

He did a perfectly good job, so I can't see how he's not taking business from the people that were born here.

I agree it probably does correlate, but to then be all like "fecking immigrants, coming over here and being motivated to work hard for less money, BASTARDS" is to sort of misunderstand capitalism. And it' d be these people who are the first to moan about unions, too.

It's not rational for people to worry about being undercut by 50%?

And how many people who are anti-immigration are directly affected by something like this example

And how many people who are anti-immigration are directly affected by something like this example, considering the highest proportion of anti-immigration sentiment exists in areas where levels of immigrants is lowest?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... rants.html

I wonder if people are about the same everywhere but immigrants don't tend to move to places where there is no work and nothing going on but the people in those areas think "we've got fuck all as it is" and so the prospect of immigration worries them, but in the wealthier areas people tend to be less concerned about their job security and so less fearful of more folk moving in? Not sure I've explained that very well.

So you don't have any irrational fears?

Indeed, it's very easy to make the arch-capitalist case for free movement of labour and capital, as you've demonstrated.

But Labour won't win any favours with the working class or the trade unions that way.

One thing to note is that, as with the housing/doctors thing, a lot of the problems laid at the door of the EU, immigrants and globalisation, are things that the government simply has no desire to tackle. The government could not give less of a shit about widening inequality, as their drive for Grammar Schools and their treatment of the NHS shows.

So you can blame it on globalisation and be right, but it's something that the government should really be fighting against, and they simply aren't.

Dunno. I think I picked it up from the customer service girls over in Wakey.

Well quite. Immigration leads to an increased tax take

Does it? That presupposes immigration increases the net number of available jobs, doesn't it?

there are a lot of lazy arse dole scroungers

Not remotely everyone who is unemployed is a lazy dole scrounger obviously, but they're not all noble job seekers.

That's interesting. Is there a minimum amount you need to earn to count as 'employed', or if you report any earnings to HMRC at all, that's it you're counted?

That's interesting. Is there a minimum amount you need to earn to count as 'employed', or if you report any earnings to HMRC at all, that's it you're counted?

Asked about speculation that Welsh UKIP leader Neil Hamilton could be installed as interim leader by the party's national executive committee, Mr Farage said: "Really? Well we'll have to see about that won't we.
"I do not see any prospect of that horror story coming to pass," he said, adding that Mr Hamilton "doesn't do our public image a whole host of good".