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Political Banter and Debate Thread
https://www.beexcellenttoeachother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10024
Page 14 of 288

Author:  Cras [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

I'm not sure anyone would be able to stand behind and defend such a withering, scornful attack as "Image from Rochester". Take that, common man!

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

markg wrote:
Grim... wrote:
markg wrote:
Well that's just daft. I'd have thought that it was a given that anyone who votes UKIP would at least be anti-EU.

I believe this is the point Mr Chris is making.

UKIP voters aren't all foaming racist idiots. Which is bad, because now there's more of them.

Yes I understand that and being anti-EU doesn't make someone a racist idiot but it should really be a pre-requisite for voting for a party who call themselves the UK Independence Party.

This perhaps tells you just how fed up people are with the mainstream parties, then.

Author:  Kern [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Cras wrote:
I'm not sure anyone would be able to stand behind and defend such a withering, scornful attack as "Image from Rochester". Take that, common man!


I saw 'Ironclad' once. Seemed a pretty violent town.

Author:  Trooper [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Didn't you know? Hanging the Cross of St George is racist.

But, then, looking at that photo, I would put the chances of the inhabitants of that house as being racist as pretty high. Does that make me a bad person for thinking that? Am I out of touch with the common man?

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Trooper wrote:
Didn't you know? Hanging the Cross of St George is racist.

But, then, looking at that photo, I would put the chances of the inhabitants of that house as being racist as pretty high. Does that make me a bad person for thinking that? Am I out of touch with the common man?

I've always considered you pretty common, if that helps.

Author:  Curiosity [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

The very concept of disliking the right wing government and their posh ways, so voting for someone equally posh and rich, but even more right wing, is just mental. Especially if you actually know you disagree with their politics.

"I dislike this thief, so I will embrace this murderer!"

Author:  Trooper [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
Trooper wrote:
Didn't you know? Hanging the Cross of St George is racist.

But, then, looking at that photo, I would put the chances of the inhabitants of that house as being racist as pretty high. Does that make me a bad person for thinking that? Am I out of touch with the common man?

I've always considered you pretty common, if that helps.


You think i'm pretty?!

<blushes>
<twirls hair>

Author:  Kern [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Oh you'll never get it right....

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Tangental but connected. My facebook has been largely thrown open for the past few weeks and I have a lot of new 'friends' who I wouldn't normally have accepted.

One of said new friends is the father of the kid that my son had swimming lessons with when we were in Egypt recently, and was his super best friend when we were away. The mothers friended each other on the last day of the holiday.

Popping up in my feed for the past couple of days has been a lot of him sharing BNP stuff. Not 'Britain First' which is borderline understandable, but proper, actual, undisguised BNP stuff. A real shame, I thought he was a good bloke on holiday as we consumed the entire Gin stock of the resort.

Author:  Kern [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

If you still want to keep the contact, then unfollow him so he still appears on your friends list but doesn't appear on your newsfeed. Otherwise, I think BNP or racist material is a swift 'unfriend' offence.

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Kern wrote:
If you still want to keep the contact, then unfollow him so he still appears on your friends list but doesn't appear on your newsfeed. Otherwise, I think BNP or racist material is a swift 'unfriend' offence.

Absolutely done already. The list of 'friends' I have on facebook that I don't follow was already significant.

Author:  Cras [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Fuck you too buddy.

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Cras wrote:
Fuck you too buddy.

xxx

Author:  DavPaz [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 14:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

This is interesting. Yes.

http://i.imgur.com/ox4y7TR.png

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 14:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

That appears to imply that virtually no-one who voted Green in 2010 will vote Green in 2015, but their share of the vote increases?

Colour me green sceptical.

Author:  markg [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 15:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

No it doesn't, one of the grey lines represents the non movers, it's small but not in relation to their 2010 share.

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 15:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

markg wrote:
No it doesn't, one of the grey lines represents the non movers, it's small but not in relation to their 2010 share.

The 'Today' grey line is about 50% of the 2010 starting figure. So maybe not virtually no-one, but still an implication that a lot of their voter base has gone elsewhere, which seems odd for an idealistic party.

Author:  markg [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 15:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

I think perhaps that might be to do with the size of the infographic and the thinnest line which would actually even show up.

Author:  Anonymous X [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 16:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Kern wrote:
If you still want to keep the contact, then unfollow him so he still appears on your friends list but doesn't appear on your newsfeed. Otherwise, I think BNP or racist material is a swift 'unfriend' offence.

I instantly remove anyone xenophobic or racist from my social life. I just don't tolerate that shit. I'm even less tolerant of that during the last 8 years of course because I'm seen how that kind of backwards nastiness affects people. Now I'm at the stage where I don't want anything to do with the 'out of Yurp' type people, because honestly, if they think people like my girlfriend and a lot of my friends should be deported and repatriated, well, fuck them.

Author:  MaliA [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 17:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Anonymous X wrote:
Kern wrote:
If you still want to keep the contact, then unfollow him so he still appears on your friends list but doesn't appear on your newsfeed. Otherwise, I think BNP or racist material is a swift 'unfriend' offence.

I instantly remove anyone xenophobic or racist from my social life. I just don't tolerate that shit. I'm even less tolerant of that during the last 8 years of course because I'm seen how that kind of backwards nastiness affects people. Now I'm at the stage where I don't want anything to do with the 'out of Yurp' type people, because honestly, if they think people like my girlfriend and a lot of my friends should be deported and repatriated, well, fuck them.


What about if the pendulum swung far enough that it could be argued more so than now that being in wasn't a good deal for the UK, but people from the EU countries could stay and work if fulfilling visa requirements? Is it the "repatriate foreigns" that you don't like or the view that being in isn't ideal? Genuine question.

Author:  Anonymous X [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 18:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

MaliA wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
Kern wrote:
If you still want to keep the contact, then unfollow him so he still appears on your friends list but doesn't appear on your newsfeed. Otherwise, I think BNP or racist material is a swift 'unfriend' offenthousandte]
I instantly remove anyone xenophobic or racist from my social life. I just don't tolerate that shit. I'm even less tolerant of that during the last 8 years of course because I'm seen how that kind of backwards nastiness affects people. Now I'm at the stage where I don't want anything to do with the 'out of Yurp' type people, because honestly, if they think people like my girlfriend and a lot of my friends should be deported and repatriated, well, fuck them.


What about if the pendulum swung far enough that it could be argued more so than now that being in wasn't a good deal for the UK, but people from the EU countries could stay and work if fulfilling visa requirements? Is it the "repatriate foreigns" that you don't like or the view that being in isn't ideal? Genuine question.

Would you be happy about the thought of your wife and child, and many friends of yours, possibly being forcefully deported in a few years time? I shouldn't have to explain that. What's going on now makes life and planning for the future incredibly uncertain and difficult.

I know what spousal visas for non-EU migrants cost and the bullshit that comes with it, I'm not realistically going to be able to afford that, neither would the majority of British people with partners and spouses from the rest of the EU. Families will be destroyed, by the thousand, lives ruined. The state has no business breaking up families and relationships purely because of nationality.

(Also: It works both ways. Leaving the EU will make life a lot harder for British citizens to work in and even visit the rest of Europe - why should we be 'caged in' to our little island and not have the opportunity to go elsewhere if we have the ability to do so?)

There is no good argument for leaving the EU, all there is is anti-immigration feelings fueled by xenophobia and ignorance. A UK outside the EU would still have to pay the membership fee in order to continue trading with the EU, and would have no democratic say in steering or reforming the EU in the future. The EU is imperfect, but it exists for a reason, will exist for a long time to come in some form or other, and we're a European nation. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater due to nationalistic hubris is not going to be good for the future of the UK.

Author:  Cavey [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 19:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

soz Anon. Post deleted.

Author:  krazywookie [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 19:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Come on dude, don't de-cry anyone with a differing opinion as unworthy. The EU is a necessary evil in my eyes, a bit shit but worth putting up with and ukip voters strike me as generally....... Icky.

Author:  Cavey [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 20:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Soz Anon. Post deleted.

Author:  Hearthly [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 20:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Cavey wrote:
Wookie, I have absolutely no issue with anyone having a differing opinion


Yes, that's clearly the case.

Author:  Anonymous X [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 20:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Cavey, don't start abusing me directly if you're heading in that direction. I'm not in the mood for showing screen grabs to the local police station again. Particularly not on a Friday evening when the nearest police station closed recently.

Author:  Cavey [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 20:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

OK, sorry man. Genuinely.

If I'm having that kind of effect it certainly isn't intended; I disagree with you but mean you no harm at all. I will delete the post now.

Author:  krazywookie [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 20:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Okay conceded X does say there's NO good reason and clearly there are a few but reading X's post without the purely literal filters on and also in my own opinion the cons to leaving outweigh the pros. Of course if I was to skew my view of the world presume that the Brits were better than everybody else and for that reason should keep our lump of rock to ourselves then that would change everything. Besides all that, this is a public forum and no one should be banished to a "lesser" thread where cranially challenged dim-wits can belm at each other without upsetting their mentally superior counterparts. That last in sarcasm of course.

Author:  krazywookie [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 20:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Oops... Seems there's editing to be done, standing by...

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 20:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

krazywookie wrote:
Oops... Seems there's editing to be done, standing by...

I wouldn't worry. Somewhere in there one of the sentences is 50% formed, that'll do ;)

Author:  krazywookie [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 20:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

:p

Author:  Cavey [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 20:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

krazywookie wrote:
Okay conceded X does say there's NO good reason and clearly there are a few but reading X's post without the purely literal filters on and also in my own opinion the cons to leaving outweigh the pros. Of course if I was to skew my view of the world presume that the Brits were better than everybody else and for that reason should keep our lump of rock to ourselves then that would change everything. Besides all that, this is a public forum and no one should be banished to a "lesser" thread where cranially challenged dim-wits can belm at each other without upsetting their mentally superior counterparts. That last in sarcasm of course.


I was merely commenting on what had been posted; no more, no less. And as I've said, no-one I can think of is more tolerant to opposing views than I.

However, if people are getting upset to the point of genuine distress, because of me, then it's just not worth it. That's just not what I want to do, and it's not what I'm about.

As for this thread? Knock yourselves out guys, I think I'm done. :)

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 20:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Cavey wrote:
And as I've said, no-one I can think of is more tolerant to opposing views than I.


I have no intention of stirring up shit here, and I genuinely believe that the above statement is true, but you really need to work on how you go about expressing said tolerance online.

Author:  Anonymous X [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 21:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

OK, I'll go for a walk and calm down. Metaphorically or otherwise.

Sorry Cavey - really, sorry - I genuinely don't dislike you at all, despite coming across as like that before. Life's too short for grudges. We are both similar in being a certain argumentative way, which has it's advantages and disadvantages, I guess.

Also, I realise my arguments in favour of EU membership aren't exactly watertight or objective, but just subjectively at the moment, it's doing my head in quite honestly, the anti-(im)migrant feelings around at the moment, drip-fed every day via the media, worrying more about an even more uncertain future. I've got very strong feelings about that. (And yes, I was pro-EU in a similar way years before I met my female life-partner, although I'm more 'personally invested' it in now of course, and agree that the EU is an organisation in need or a lot of reforms. I think the main case is that in the UK the pro-EU side hasn't been defensive or strong enough supporting the idea of the EU, but that's another kettle of piscines.)

Author:  Cavey [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 21:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Nice one Anon, genuinely. Very nice of you to post and much appreciated. As APoD quite rightly notes, I need to work on my flying anvil diplomacy but I absolutely mean no harm and abhor shit like this.

Let's allow the dust to settle :) then I'll put forward my ideas on this & we can discuss? Albeit I should point out, I'm still pro-EU myself, a bit of a Ken Clarke style One Nation Tory. :)

Have a good weekend.


Cavey

Author:  MaliA [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 21:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

I don't think the UK does EU well as it seems we don't have the influence to fuck shit up enough to precipitate a withdrawal as it doesn't work nor do we have the skills or ambition to stick our heads down and work at it so we are running the show. Both options disappoint. I don't think we need policy makers in the there, we need gamblers and influencers to trade, barter and advance the Uk's interest. Whinging about stuff and stamping feet has gotten nowhere really, a new tack is needed. Brave decisions need to be made IN Europe to advance the UK out of Europe.

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 22:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7967&hilit=+european

I still haven't had a reason to change my views since that thread.

Author:  MaliA [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 22:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
http://www.beexcellenttoeachother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7967&hilit=+european

I still haven't had a reason to change my views since that thread.


Seems reasonable

Author:  Hearthly [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

In David Cameron we have a leader whose job is to quietly legitimise a semi-criminal, money-laundering economy.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... of-century

Having read the article I can't see any other way to interpret it?

(I appreciate the article's three years old, I just had my attention drawn to it.)

Quote:
At the moment tax law ensures that companies based here, with branches in other countries, don't get taxed twice on the same money. They have to pay only the difference between our rate and that of the other country. If, for example, Dirty Oil plc pays 10% corporation tax on its profits in Oblivia, then shifts the money over here, it should pay a further 18% in the UK, to match our rate of 28%. But under the new proposals, companies will pay nothing at all in this country on money made by their foreign branches.

Foreign means anywhere. If these proposals go ahead, the UK will be only the second country in the world to allow money that has passed through tax havens to remain untaxed when it gets here. The other is Switzerland. The exemption applies solely to "large and medium companies": it is not available for smaller firms. The government says it expects "large financial services companies to make the greatest use of the exemption regime". The main beneficiaries, in other words, will be the banks.

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 13:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Hearthly wrote:
In David Cameron we have a leader whose job is to quietly legitimise a semi-criminal, money-laundering economy.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... of-century

Having read the article I can't see any other way to interpret it?

(I appreciate the article's three years old, I just had my attention drawn to it.)

Quote:
At the moment tax law ensures that companies based here, with branches in other countries, don't get taxed twice on the same money. They have to pay only the difference between our rate and that of the other country. If, for example, Dirty Oil plc pays 10% corporation tax on its profits in Oblivia, then shifts the money over here, it should pay a further 18% in the UK, to match our rate of 28%. But under the new proposals, companies will pay nothing at all in this country on money made by their foreign branches.

Foreign means anywhere. If these proposals go ahead, the UK will be only the second country in the world to allow money that has passed through tax havens to remain untaxed when it gets here. The other is Switzerland. The exemption applies solely to "large and medium companies": it is not available for smaller firms. The government says it expects "large financial services companies to make the greatest use of the exemption regime". The main beneficiaries, in other words, will be the banks.

It was also laughably bad when written three years ago and was widely discredited at the time. That the writer had to enhance the article by using 'oblivia' and 'dirty oil' to make a point, rather than, say, 'facts' or 'truth', should say enough to the reader of moderate intelligence.

Indeed when it takes Robert Peston to frame your article in a coherent manner you should probably check you know what you're talking about. Mind you, its Monbiot so I don't know why I was even slightly surprised at the time.

Author:  Hearthly [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 16:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
It was also laughably bad when written three years ago and was widely discredited at the time. That the writer had to enhance the article by using 'oblivia' and 'dirty oil' to make a point, rather than, say, 'facts' or 'truth', should say enough to the reader of moderate intelligence.

Indeed when it takes Robert Peston to frame your article in a coherent manner you should probably check you know what you're talking about. Mind you, its Monbiot so I don't know why I was even slightly surprised at the time.


Ahhh cheers, that's quite interesting then. As I was reading the article I did think it seemed wantonly vicious and anti-general population, even for the Tories.

Doubtless it's more stuff to go on Cavey's list of 'pure, unadulterated, hysterical nonsense' as befits an 'unthinking, morosely aggressive and above all frankly tiresome Labour and uber Socialist drone' such as myself :D

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 16:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Without going into all my technical issues with the failings of how the article describes the legislation, the key point that monbiot almost certainly intentionally ignores (as opposed to not being aware of) is that it was legislation first proposed by Gordon brown, refined for introduction by darling, and passed by the Tories with more anti tax avoidance protections than the original contained.

So worse than pure unadulterated anti Tory hysteria. It is intentionally misleading.

Author:  Hearthly [ Sun Nov 23, 2014 16:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
Without going into all my technical issues with the failings of how the article describes the legislation, the key point that monbiot almost certainly intentionally ignores (as opposed to not being aware of) is that it was legislation first proposed by Gordon brown, refined for introduction by darling, and passed by the Tories with more anti tax avoidance protections than the original contained.


That wouldn't surprise me, I'm no apologist for the travesty that was (and arguably still is) 'new Labour'.

Quote:
So worse than pure unadulterated anti Tory hysteria. It is intentionally misleading.


Naughty George! I still like his articles in the main though, even if he was off-target with this one. And Polly Toynbee, she's good as well.

And not that the Tory press are averse to a bit of 'anti-anything a bit lefty' hysteria, of course :)

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Sun Nov 23, 2014 18:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

For the record, I'm as anti 'Intentionally misleading' for parties of any color regardless of my own allegiancies. I don't like any form of cheapening of the debate from whatever angle.

Author:  Kern [ Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

From the House of Commons, 21 November (Hansard link)

Quote:
David Tredinnick: With homeopathic medicine, which I have long supported and advocated, it is impossible to run trials on every dilution: some are so dilute that they do not show up.

Dr Huppert: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

David Tredinnick: I am always glad to give way to the hon. Gentleman—I am sure he will agree with my every word.

Dr Huppert: My hon. Friend will be well aware that there have been many trials of homeopathic medicines, and the fact is that none of them has shown that they work better than a placebo. He is right that they are very dilute; that is why they do not work.

David Tredinnick: The hon. Gentleman makes my point. I remember when some of his friends went to Boots in Kensington high street and consumed the entire stock of homeopathic medicine. They saw that as a huge triumph, as they felt it illustrated the fact that homeopathic medicine was not effective. Of course it did nothing of the sort; it proved that it was absolutely safe to take these preparations under any circumstances, and that the only time they work is if they are in the right preparation and are taken in the right amount, as prescribed by a professional.


I don't even think he has even thought about what he is saying! Oh dear.

Author:  Doctor Glyndwr [ Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Record numbers of working families in poverty due to low-paid jobs | Society | The Guardian

Quote:
Insecure, low-paid jobs are leaving record numbers of working families in poverty, with two-thirds of people who found work in the past year taking jobs for less than the living wage, according to the latest annual report from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation.
...
Painting a picture of huge numbers trapped on low wages, the foundation said during the decade only a fifth of low-paid workers managed to move to better paid jobs.

The living wage is calculated at £7.85 an hour nationally, or £9.15 in London – much higher than the legally enforceable £6.50 minimum wage.

As many people from working families are now in poverty as from workless ones, partly due to a vast increase in insecure work on zero-hours contracts, or in part-time or low-paid self-employment.


Sure am glad we've had an economic recovery.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
It was also laughably bad when written three years ago and was widely discredited at the time. That the writer had to enhance the article by using 'oblivia' and 'dirty oil' to make a point, rather than, say, 'facts' or 'truth', should say enough to the reader of moderate intelligence.

Indeed when it takes Robert Peston to frame your article in a coherent manner you should probably check you know what you're talking about. Mind you, its Monbiot so I don't know why I was even slightly surprised at the time.


:this:

ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
Without going into all my technical issues with the failings of how the article describes the legislation, the key point that monbiot almost certainly intentionally ignores (as opposed to not being aware of) is that it was legislation first proposed by Gordon brown, refined for introduction by darling, and passed by the Tories with more anti tax avoidance protections than the original contained.

So worse than pure unadulterated anti Tory hysteria. It is intentionally misleading.


:this:

For me, it's the whole psychology of the thing that's the most interesting aspect here; why write, less still post, a piece that doesn't even withstand the most basic scrutiny; is intentionally misleading and as such, nothing more than piss-poor, rather embarrassing propaganda?

As you say then, far worse than mere anti-Tory hysteria. I mean, just how desperate does one have to be to carry on clinging to the dead, stinking corpse of a demonstrably failed ideology, even purposely trying to mislead and misinform others as well as yourself, rather than facing up to reality? What chance any such person bringing something constructive to this discussion and/or having an actual debate?

Of course, it's this latter point that I was (rather clumsily) trying to explain to Wookie before. I'm not necessarily trying to be 'elitist' when I say that I wish a few usual suspects would keep out of this thread, merely that these characters can simply never, ever be 'reprogrammed' by facts or argument, no matter how compelling or persuasive? They have their life-long held political narrative, mantra and beliefs, and that's that - period. The analogy I'd draw is that of die-hard football supporters or even a cult?

There are many left wing contributors here like Curio, Peter St John etc. who bring quality discussion and debate to the table, without resorting to misinformation, getting personal about whether X or Y have 'flounced' and/or accusing their opponent of 'pressing their buttons' (even when they're speaking to someone else entirely), and/or just plain old sputtering ire. Let's have a cerebral, quality political discussion for grownups. :)

Author:  Hearthly [ Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Sure am glad we've had an economic recovery.


There was a piece in The Telegraph the other week about this, (and of course The Torygraph is no left-wing thinktank :D), saying how Osborne's going to miss all his deficit reduction targets, how most people don't feel in the slightest that the economy's recovered (hence the Tories continuing to struggle in the polls when they should be on an economic poll bounce), tax receipts are struggling because so many workers are on low-pay/zero hours and technically in poverty, there'll be nothing to offer tax cuts with etc.

An economic recovery is no such thing when it's just a few at the top making out like bandits, whilst everyone else has to make do with declining wages in real terms, terrible underemployment and zero job security, and taking any old shit they get offered.

When Pizza Hut are able to pick and choose from graduate job applicants, something's gone wrong.

Author:  Cavey [ Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Sure am glad we've had an economic recovery.


Me too. :)
Still having one too, very much against the grain and in stark comparison to the Euro Zone and even the G7.

Cripes, even The Guardian thinks so.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... owth-slows

Quote:
The UK unemployment total has fallen below two million for the first time in almost six years, official figures show.

The number of jobless people fell by 154,000 to 1.97 million in the three months to the end of August, the Office for National Statistics said.

The drop, which is bigger than analysts expected, took the unemployment rate to 6%, its lowest level since late 2008.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29627831

So much, then, for the "austerity will be teh disaster for the UK and can never engender economic growth and/or a way out of the shit we were in" brigade, eh Doc?

(See also: pointing out, yet again, that a complete government or economy, in its absolute entirety, isn't perfect <> proving any point whatsoever, least of all something, you know, relevant to the discussion. _No_one_is_arguing_this_ )

Author:  asfish [ Mon Nov 24, 2014 16:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

http://brownjewel.bigcartel.com/product ... trumps-002

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