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Political Banter and Debate Thread
https://www.beexcellenttoeachother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10024
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Author:  Trousers [ Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Squirt wrote:
Does Tactical Verbal Communication mean "talking"?


Sort of.

The police shout "Look behind you" and when they do, on go the cuffs. Tactical.

Author:  Zardoz [ Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Squirt wrote:
Does Tactical Verbal Communication mean "talking"?

They shout "Bang! Bang!".

Author:  Grim... [ Wed Aug 09, 2017 13:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

"It's the Goodyear blimp!"

Author:  Dr Zoidberg [ Wed Aug 09, 2017 15:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Squirt wrote:
Does Tactical Verbal Communication mean "talking"?


Yep, starts at talking and goes up to shouting that you have a police dog/taser/gun that you'll use if needed.

https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/sit ... olicy2.pdf

Author:  Trousers [ Wed Aug 09, 2017 16:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Dr Zoidberg wrote:
police dog/taser/gun


Attachment:
dawg.jpg

Author:  MaliA [ Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-backlash

Oh, Owen.

Author:  myp [ Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

MaliA wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/09/prime-minister-corbyn-very-british-coup-establishment-backlash

Oh, Owen.

Seems pretty reasonable if you read the whole thing.

Author:  MaliA [ Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Lonewolves wrote:
MaliA wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/09/prime-minister-corbyn-very-british-coup-establishment-backlash

Oh, Owen.

Seems pretty reasonable if you read the whole thing.


The government is a puppet to a shadowy cabal that would endeauvour to stop a Labour Land of Milk and Honey?

Author:  Kern [ Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Ah, I love Harold Wilson conspiracies. The stories get a bit murky, but whilst it seems likely that whilst there were some right-wing fantasists, there were never enough to be taken seriously. There's also the issue of his Alzheimer's and how far it had progressed by then. Never really know how to take the story about him seeing tanks at Heathrow.

Of course, they just want you to think that it was the real Harold Wilson Prime-Ministering from 1974-1976.

Author:  Cavey [ Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

I got halfway through the first paragraph where he describes himself as a 'Corbyn supporter', snorted, LOLed for real, then closed the browser page.

Brass neck doesn't even begin to cover it; who honestly still listens to what this twerp has to say, even on the "googly eyed" [(c) Ross Greer] Left?

Author:  MaliA [ Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Cavey wrote:
I got halfway through the first paragraph where he describes himself as a 'Corbyn supporter', snorted, LOLed for real, then closed the browser page.

Brass neck doesn't even begin to cover it; who honestly still listens to what this twerp has to say, even on the "googly eyed" [(c) Ross Greer] Left?


Read it all. You will love it.

Author:  Peter St. John [ Thu Aug 10, 2017 14:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Kern wrote:
Ah, I love Harold Wilson conspiracies. The stories get a bit murky, but whilst it seems likely that whilst there were some right-wing fantasists, there were never enough to be taken seriously. There's also the issue of his Alzheimer's and how far it had progressed by then. Never really know how to take the story about him seeing tanks at Heathrow.

Of course, they just want you to think that it was the real Harold Wilson Prime-Ministering from 1974-1976.


I'm never sure either, but there's some evidence (at least from Spycatcher et al) that some in the security services were not…best pleased with him being PM. And looking back at BBC/ITV documentaries at the time (obscure British doc hunting on YouTube is such a mine of nostalgia for a time I never knew!), there's definitely a sense that Heath/Wilson couldn't control the country and that a 'stern hand is needed' (Mountbatten always turns up at this point, but in almost all the stories, refuses to have anything to do with it).

And the tanks really were parked in Heathrow - though the reason given was possible IRA action at the airport.

EDIT: And hey, guess who didn't read the article! My defence is that I'm now an American citizen and don't do silly things like read ;)

Author:  Kern [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Peter St. John wrote:
My defence is that I'm now an American citizen and don't do silly things like read ;)


Congratulations! Was the test better than the UK one?

This wasn't your first political action? ;) Seriously, what's the mood like in Durham (I think that's where you are in North Carolina)?

Author:  DavPaz [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Blimey, that's terrifying.

Author:  Cras [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Kern wrote:
Peter St. John wrote:
My defence is that I'm now an American citizen and don't do silly things like read ;)


Congratulations! Was the test better than the UK one?

This wasn't your first political action? ;) Seriously, what's the mood like in Durham (I think that's where you are in North Carolina)?


https://twitter.com/CharlieReece/status ... 7975416834



Author:  DavPaz [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Mob mentality scares the shit out of me. The people who tore down that statue were every bit as (deep breath) "swivel eyed" as the racist fucktards the other day. I suspect something horrible is brewing. Possibly using the words "massacre" and "riot"

Author:  Kern [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

On the statues issue, the CW Memory blog has some interesting posts about this week's events and historical memory in general.

Author:  Cavey [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

These fuckers who insist on succumbing to the dubious allure of the political and social spectrum extremes (on either side) annoy the fuck out of me; I agree with DavPaz: S.E.L.s the lot of em.

People need to get real, grow the fuck up and close down Twitter.

Author:  myp [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

DavPaz wrote:
Mob mentality scares the shit out of me. The people who tore down that statue were every bit as (deep breath) "swivel eyed" as the racist fucktards the other day. I suspect something horrible is brewing. Possibly using the words "massacre" and "riot"

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but you appear to be saying people who oppose nazis are just as bad as nazis.

Please say I've misconstrued

Author:  MaliA [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Related:

https://thelongestway.com/2017/04/08/i- ... he-antifa/

Author:  myp [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Punching nazis is fine. They want to eradicate everyone from the earth apart from healthy white people. They deserve violence. Engaging with them has never worked.

I believe violence against fascism helped defeat it in the 40s btw.

Author:  DavPaz [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Lonewolves wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
Mob mentality scares the shit out of me. The people who tore down that statue were every bit as (deep breath) "swivel eyed" as the racist fucktards the other day. I suspect something horrible is brewing. Possibly using the words "massacre" and "riot"

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but you appear to be saying people who oppose nazis are just as bad as nazis.

Please say I've misconstrued

People who form mobs and destroy things while hooting like howler monkeys are awful, yes.

I agree that the mentioned statues are flashpoints and need to be removed. But destroyed?

Lest we forget and all that. Those that do not learn from the lessons of history, yada yada yada

Author:  myp [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

DavPaz wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
Mob mentality scares the shit out of me. The people who tore down that statue were every bit as (deep breath) "swivel eyed" as the racist fucktards the other day. I suspect something horrible is brewing. Possibly using the words "massacre" and "riot"

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but you appear to be saying people who oppose nazis are just as bad as nazis.

Please say I've misconstrued

People who form mobs and destroy things while hooting like howler monkeys are awful, yes.

I agree that the mentioned statues are flashpoints and need to be removed. But destroyed?

Lest we forget and all that. Those that do not learn from the lessons of history, yada yada yada

People are angry, and rightly so. Engaging and trying to talk to fascists has never worked. Neither has laughing at them or ignoring them. History shows this.

Author:  DavPaz [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Lonewolves wrote:
Punching nazis is fine. They want to eradicate everyone from the earth apart from healthy white people. They deserve violence. Engaging with them has never worked.

I believe violence against fascism helped defeat it in the 40s btw.

Coming from you, this is surprising.

Author:  myp [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

DavPaz wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Punching nazis is fine. They want to eradicate everyone from the earth apart from healthy white people. They deserve violence. Engaging with them has never worked.

I believe violence against fascism helped defeat it in the 40s btw.

Coming from you, this is surprising.

I am tolerant of everything except intolerance!

Author:  DavPaz [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Lonewolves wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
Mob mentality scares the shit out of me. The people who tore down that statue were every bit as (deep breath) "swivel eyed" as the racist fucktards the other day. I suspect something horrible is brewing. Possibly using the words "massacre" and "riot"

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but you appear to be saying people who oppose nazis are just as bad as nazis.

Please say I've misconstrued

People who form mobs and destroy things while hooting like howler monkeys are awful, yes.

I agree that the mentioned statues are flashpoints and need to be removed. But destroyed?

Lest we forget and all that. Those that do not learn from the lessons of history, yada yada yada

People are angry, and rightly so. Engaging and trying to talk to fascists has never worked. Neither has laughing at them or ignoring them. History shows this.

I suspect we're having two parallel discussions here. Let's merge

Author:  Kern [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Having the mayor or town authorities decide to remove the statues is fine. After all, they were originally put up with the consent of their predecessors so this is just the democratic and peaceful process in operation, supported by the force of law. A mob tearing one down in an already tense situation is deliberately provocative and not going to achieve much more than more violence.

Moving on from statues: I'm stunned by how difficult it was for Mr Trump to criticise the far right. That's one of the easiest ways to pick up political points and he didn't take it. Heck, even Mrs May could find the right words. Then I thought about his record, and realised it's not that surprising.

Author:  markg [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Lonewolves wrote:
Punching nazis is fine. They want to eradicate everyone from the earth apart from healthy white people. They deserve violence. Engaging with them has never worked.

I believe violence against fascism helped defeat it in the 40s btw.

But there have been Nazis like these everywhere for the whole intervening time. Mostly they just got ignored and hence never really got anywhere. Does one particularly vociferous rally in a town in America mean that the whole world or even the whole of the USA is about to be overrun by Nazis? I very much doubt it. By all means punch one in the face but don't assume that what you are doing might not have precisely the opposite effect to the one you are after.

Author:  DavPaz [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Lonewolves wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Punching nazis is fine. They want to eradicate everyone from the earth apart from healthy white people. They deserve violence. Engaging with them has never worked.

I believe violence against fascism helped defeat it in the 40s btw.

Coming from you, this is surprising.

I am tolerant of everything except intolerance!

Violence begets violence, man. Do you think the man in the swastika themed flak jacket with coordinated assault rifle is bothered about an angry student throwing a punch? Do you think he's not itching to murder him some fags?

Author:  myp [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Kern wrote:
Having the mayor or town authorities decide to remove the statues is fine. After all, they were originally put up with the consent of their predecessors so this is just the democratic and peaceful process in operation, supported by the force of law. A mob tearing one down in an already tense situation is deliberately provocative and not going to achieve much more than more violence

So would you have been one of those white moderates who espoused inaction during the Civil Rights movement in America who MLK particularly despised?

Violence is the catalyst for any social change. Sitting around talking about it does nothing. Again, just look at history. Do you think the suffragettes got the vote by sitting around knitting and organising peaceful protests? No, they smashed shit up.

Author:  markg [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Lonewolves wrote:
Kern wrote:
Having the mayor or town authorities decide to remove the statues is fine. After all, they were originally put up with the consent of their predecessors so this is just the democratic and peaceful process in operation, supported by the force of law. A mob tearing one down in an already tense situation is deliberately provocative and not going to achieve much more than more violence

So would you have been one of those white moderates who espoused inaction during the Civil Rights movement in America who MLK particularly despised?

Violence is the catalyst for any social change. Sitting around talking about it does nothing. Again, just look at history. Do you think the suffragettes got the vote by sitting around knitting and organising peaceful protests? No, they smashed shit up.

Jesus. Fucking. Christ.

Why aren't you at scuffling at EDL marches every weekend, then?

Author:  myp [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

I'm not a fighter. But I admire those that stand up against injustice and hate.

Anyway, sorry if I've offended any liberal sensibilities here. I didn't expect much agreement.

Author:  Grim... [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Next time you choose the music in my presence I'm going to crush your spine.

Author:  Kern [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Lonewolves wrote:
Violence is the catalyst for any social change. Sitting around talking about it does nothing. Again.


It's a case of choosing one's battles. On this, I think the minority white-chino-and-red-hat-clad pathetic right wing scum should be shown up for what they are. I'm not sure they can change, but we can work to ensure that others don't fall for their bullshit or shrug their shoulders and equivocate.

Author:  Malc [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Lonewolves wrote:
I'm not a fighter. But I admire those that stand up against injustice and hate.

Anyway, sorry if I've offended any liberal sensibilities here. I didn't expect much agreement.


My 19 year old son is in full agreement with you, I think I am more on the side of the author of the article that Malia posted, the nazis want a fight, both to prove themselves men, and to point to the violence as a needs to defend themselves. That does not mean do nothing, it means peaceful protest, mockery, exposure and education.

Author:  DavPaz [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Lonewolves wrote:
I'm not a fighter. But I admire those that stand up against injustice and hate.

Anyway, sorry if I've offended any liberal sensibilities here. I didn't expect much agreement.

C'mon, you're just trolling now, surely

Author:  Kern [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

It's made me stop wearing my cream M&S chinos, for sure. Dam Nazis, spoiling everything.

Author:  DavPaz [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:06 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Kern wrote:
It's made me stop wearing my cream M&S chinos, for sure. Dam Nazis, spoiling everything.

Well, that's a win at least

Author:  myp [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Kern wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Violence is the catalyst for any social change. Sitting around talking about it does nothing. Again.


It's a case of choosing one's battles. On this, I think the minority white-chino-and-red-hat-clad pathetic right wing scum should be shown up for what they are. I'm not sure they can change, but we can work to ensure that others don't fall for their bullshit or shrug their shoulders and equivocate.

Dude, there are neo-nazis in the White House. Steve Bannon is Trump's main advisor and has featured in Stormfront for crying out loud. Nazis in America are becoming more emboldened by the day.

Like I said, laughing at them or ignoring them will do nothing. That's literally what happened in Germany in the 30s. And you can invoke Godwin's Law if you like, but he's ok with it. https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/8 ... 9634232320



Author:  myp [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

DavPaz wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
I'm not a fighter. But I admire those that stand up against injustice and hate.

Anyway, sorry if I've offended any liberal sensibilities here. I didn't expect much agreement.

C'mon, you're just trolling now, surely

I've never been more serious.

Author:  myp [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Please forgive me for not mincing my words when a leftist protestor gets killed by a nazi driving over them in a car when the discussion seems to be more about whether a racist statue should have been destroyed or not…

Author:  Kern [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

No, we should be angry. What happened at the weekend was horrible, made worse by Mr Trump's utter ghastliness.

The statue thing is part of the discussion about how we should respond and deal with this, and we clearly differ on that. And that's fine.

Author:  DavPaz [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Lonewolves wrote:
Please forgive me for not mincing my words when a leftist protestor gets killed by a nazi driving over them in a car when the discussion seems to be more about whether a racist statue should have been destroyed or not…

You're right. Of course. We should be running the Nazis over in retaliation, because violence is ok now.

BRB, checking my tyre pressure.

Author:  TheVision [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Grim... wrote:
Next time you choose the music in my presence I'm going to crush your spine.


There's two people that I have met in my life that I believe would have the size and strength to do this. The other person Grim... was the wrestler Abyss.

Author:  MaliA [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

DavPaz wrote:
Kern wrote:
It's made me stop wearing my cream M&S chinos, for sure. Dam Nazis, spoiling everything.

Well, that's a win at least


How would you tell us apart?

Author:  myp [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Anyway it would be boring if we all thought the same wouldn't it? I'll leave you to your liberal/centrist echo chamber now.

I still love you all despite you enabling nazis

(Yes, this post was trolling - I couldn't resist just one)

Author:  markg [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Lonewolves wrote:
Kern wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Violence is the catalyst for any social change. Sitting around talking about it does nothing. Again.


It's a case of choosing one's battles. On this, I think the minority white-chino-and-red-hat-clad pathetic right wing scum should be shown up for what they are. I'm not sure they can change, but we can work to ensure that others don't fall for their bullshit or shrug their shoulders and equivocate.

Dude, there are neo-nazis in the White House. Steve Bannon is Trump's main advisor and has featured in Stormfront for crying out loud. Nazis in America are becoming more emboldened by the day.

Like I said, laughing at them or ignoring them will do nothing. That's literally what happened in Germany in the 30s. And you can invoke Godwin's Law if you like, but he's ok with it. https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/8 ... 9634232320



From reading Godwin's posts on Twitter I think his view on the matter is pretty level-headed.

I don't think it's even close to being a situation like Germany in the 1930s, not really. In 2017 too many ordinary people have no truck whatsoever with views like that. Trump is fucking awful, no doubt. But he's having tremendous difficulty scrapping a healthcare plan, let alone setting about invading the world and exterminating entire races. He's still just a president, not a dictator. There's too much hysteria.

Author:  Cras [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Lonewolves wrote:
Please forgive me for not mincing my words when a leftist protestor gets killed by a nazi driving over them in a car when the discussion seems to be more about whether a racist statue should have been destroyed or not…


Like it or not, appearances are important. Trump got elected by people who look at the news and when they see statues being pulled down they don't see justified anger, they see violence. They say things like "it's awful, the violence on both sides" because that's what the media reporting teaches them. Protest and action only drive change when they aren't doing exactly what the likes of Bannon and Gorka want - reinforcing the sense of separation between the American heartland republican voters and those who actually can see shades of grey.

This isn't the 70s. Those in charge now aren't LBJ, going to be driven to withdraw from war because of public protest. They're emboldened by it because it's giving them exactly what they want - a way to tell hall of America "This is your enemy".

Author:  DavPaz [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

Lonewolves wrote:
Anyway it would be boring if we all thought the same wouldn't it? I'll leave you to your liberal/centrist echo chamber now.

I still love you all despite you enabling nazis

(Yes, this post was trolling - I couldn't resist just one)

Oh you scamp.

So... you're not liberal now? How do you identify?

Author:  myp [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread

DavPaz wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Anyway it would be boring if we all thought the same wouldn't it? I'll leave you to your liberal/centrist echo chamber now.

I still love you all despite you enabling nazis

(Yes, this post was trolling - I couldn't resist just one)

Oh you scamp.

So... you're not liberal now? How do you identify?

Socialist or leftist I guess. I don't really see myself as communist though because that fetishises Stalin/Lenin too much - and they conducted as many atrocities against its people as Hitler's Germany did with forced labour and executing dissidents etc.

Personally I stopped seeing myself as a liberal because it's wedded to capitalism and I'm anti-capitalist (specifically anti-late capitalism).

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