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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 13:12 
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It has to be the cladding doesn't it? The fire spread around the outside of the building.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 13:15 
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markg wrote:
It has to be the cladding doesn't it? The fire spread around the outside of the building.

It looks likely and seems to make sense, but there's no official word yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 18:42 
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Tim Farron becomes a pub quiz question.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:18 
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:'(

https://www.facebook.com/cool.britannia ... 7151715236

Quote:
A Tory outrage.

2009 - Lakanal House tower block catches fire killing 6 people. The local authority is prosecuted for lapses in fire safety. A review is promised by the Labour government after pressure from the Fire Protection Association (FPA).

2010 - Building Regulations Act is published, including provisions for fire safety. Conservatives win election, a review is promised by the new government after more pressure from the FPA and warnings that the BR act does not go far enough.

2013 - Boris Johnson overrules the ruling body of the London Fire Brigade and uses legal action to inflict £29m in cuts. Closing 10 fire stations, cutting firefighters by 552, losing 14 fire engines and cutting minimum staffing levels from 5 to 4. By the time he steps down as Mayor of London he inflicts a further £100m in cuts to £130m total and the loss of 7000 firefighters. Fire prevention measures carried out by the service drop by over 25%.

2013 - All Party Parliamentary Group on Fire Safety and Rescue produces a report strongly recommending installation of fire suppression systems and sprinklers in 4000 tower blocks throughout Britain. The Grenfell residents action group publishes a report warning that their landlord is putting their safety at risk by restricting the access ways to their car park. They are ignored by their landlord.

2013 - 2016 Conservative housing ministers sit on All Party report without action, promising they are "looking at it", including housing minister Gavin Barwell.

2016 - Conservatives vote against a Labour motion to make sure all landlords and housing associations ensure residences are fit for human occupation, including provisions for fire safety. The motion is denied by 312 votes to 219. 72 of the MP's voting against are landlords. The Grenfell residents action group publish a report warning people will die in a fire before the landlord takes notice of their poor fire safety provisions. They are ignored by their landlord.

2017 - Ex housing minister Gavin Barwell becomes Prime Minister Theresa May's chief of staff. He never actions the All Party Parliamentary report recommendations. Grenfell Tower is reduced to rubble with the deaths of at least 12 residents as a fire spreads through the building in 4 minutes. It has no fire suppression system or sprinklers. The stairwell is not adequate for a full building evacuation. The emergency lighting is missing from half of the floors. The fire service struggle to reach the building due to previous car park modifications causing access issues as warned by the resident action group in 2013.

This post will be updated as more facts become apparent. These people were ignored because they were poor, and now they are dead. We all need to add our voices to theirs.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:06 
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From the BBC

Quote:
A 2012 report by the British Automatic Fire Sprinkler Association (BAFSA) concluded that fire sprinklers could be retrofitted with tenants in place at a cost of about £1,150 a flat. Since the 24-storey Grenfell Tower contained 120 flats, it works out at £138,000. Significantly less than the £2.6m spent on the cladding and replacement windows which were largely done for cosmetic reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 13:36 
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This whole event seems quite surreal in places

We have Corbyn meeting and talking to the survivors (even offering a shoulder to them) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06 ... ell-tower/
May goes , but does not meet any of the survivors because of 'security concerns' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40300369

And then just to show how true that is you get the Queen turning up : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40298473

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 14:02 
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The horrific fire and its aftermath probably deserves its own thread. I've found it really distressing to watch the news these two days. Horrific.

As for the visits: yes, Mrs May should have just visited and listened to the residents' anger. Sadiq Khan took it as well as political leader would have done in that circumstance, I thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 14:09 
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Kern wrote:
The horrific fire and its aftermath probably deserves its own thread. I've found it really distressing to watch the news these two days. Horrific.
The whole thing is just heartbreaking, what those people must have gone through in their final desperate minutes is unimaginable.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 14:28 
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I think the Queen did that deliberately, Kern - May has not endeared herself to Brenda recently apparently.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 14:54 
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MrChris wrote:
I think the Queen did that deliberately, Kern - May has not endeared herself to Beenda recently apparently.


I think most people blame the Conservatives for elements of this tragedy, some sort of corner\cost cutting will doubtless be found to be a key issue, so guess May was worried that somebody might attack her.

Corbyn is the working class (and a lot of other classes hero) and pretty much everyone likes the Queen.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 16:34 
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The failures already seem extremely well-documented and constantly-highlighted, which is what's really upsetting me about the whole thing.

What's making me angry is politicians making wafty "we will investigate to understand what went wrong" statements from about 3 seconds in.

Either be honest or decline to make a statement, don't be a stereotypically weasally fucking *politician* about it, especially *while it's still happening*.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 19:06 
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MrChris wrote:
I think the Queen did that deliberately, Kern - May has not endeared herself to Brenda recently apparently.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:46 
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From four years ago.....

Quote:
The Government is "waging war against the excessive health and safety culture that has become an albatross around the neck of British businesses", said the PM.


Prime Minister David Cameron today said that his new year's resolution was to "kill off the health and safety culture for good".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 85238.html

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 21:55 
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I like this guy.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:17 
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Rock steady gaze

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Watched the first 10 seconds.
Heads up: Jeremy Corbyn didn't win the election; he lost it. Very badly.

It's simply that expectations were so low, falling short of a Parliamentary majority by 60 odd seats, thereby not a cat in hells chance of getting a sniff of being anywhere near government, is seen as a 'victory' - and all this as against a Tory election campaign that was the worst in living memory. As I said, any sensible non-swiveleyed Labour Party/Leader such as David Miliband talking of aspiration instead of free unicorns etc would've walked it.

I really hate to be the one to break the news but, actually, very little indeed has changed - we still have a Tory government in place?

Interesting to see shares soaring and the pound steady upon the start of Brexit negotiations also.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:36 
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Ha ha fucking hell, still trying to gloat, even now! That's some fucking chutzpah!


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:40 
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But I think your assertion is questionable to begin with. If it was a choice between Tories and Tory-lite then I think that they would still have a majority. I don't think that younger voters would have even bothered.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:47 
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Now, I'm more aligned with Labour than the Conservatives, I read the Guardian, and I like how May and her team have been given a right bloody nose; I do however feel that while, yes it was an expectation defying result, the reactions on the left have been a little over the top and the celebrations a little unwarranted perhaps. Labour came out way stronger than expected and the Conservatives massively diminished, of course, but that's not really a win - it's significant progress - there is far far more to be done and the UK is still in for one hell of a rough, uncertain ride.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:43 
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I was wondering if everyone had seen a different set of election results to me. Turns out after going to a wedding at the weekend on a farm that not everyone had :)

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:44 
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markg wrote:
Ha ha fucking hell, still trying to gloat, even now! That's some fucking chutzpah!


Nah, just stating uncomfortable truths. I'm very far from gloating I assure you, the Tories should have *walked* this, given the (ahem) quality of their opposition. That they did not, and in fact scraped home by the barest of (Scottish) margins isn't cause for celebration, but relief on my part.

Notwithstanding, the more idiotic elements of the Far Left trumpeting a dismal second and 60-odd seats short as a "victory" tells its own story, I guess. I mean, it's all a very far cry from the halcyon days, still less than a decade ago, with three landslides chalked up on the bounce, right? Still, we all still remember how that panned out, which probably explains the grasping of the flimsiest of straws now. Not so much green shoots of recovery, more like a tinge of moss. :D

Labour lost, and lost badly. Fact.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:50 
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markg wrote:
But I think your assertion is questionable to begin with. If it was a choice between Tories and Tory-lite then I think that they would still have a majority. I don't think that younger voters would have even bothered.


:this:

Demographics will do for the Tories, their support base is literally dying of old age, and I don't think they'll be replaced as younger people move into middle age and middle aged people move into old age. (Because those people have not enjoyed all the one-time-only benefits that the baby boomers have been the recipients of.)

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/13/ho ... -election/

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:56 
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:DD

Trouble is, of course, people (well, most people ;) ) get wiser with age, and tend towards small c Conservativism as they get older. It stands to reason; people see more of life and gather knowledge and experience (plus, they have more to lose, and they'll remember first hand the disastrous outcomes of previous Labour governments directly). So the simplistic idealism of youth is gradually supplanted by a wiser pragmatism. So basically, I don't see the Tories' sensible, intelligent and pragmatic voter base dying off any time soon. Good grief... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:09 
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Latest polls show Labour ahead now.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:15 
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Bear in mind the context-those labour voters celebrating the most loudly are those who want nothing to do with the new labour years, and who wouldn't compare anything to them. Right wing travesty, Blair, blah blah. So this for them is a vindication of picking a left wing position, and a suggestion that if they can defy predictions here, then they have something to build on. It's absolutely essential to them that the Labour Party actually mean something leftist, not just be a watered down version of the Tories. The latter seemed the only way to sneak a few lefty ideas in, now they're hoping it wasn't. But even if it isn't true, they feel they're getting their party back. Much division, though, still plenty of blairites left, and I can't see the two sides' quest for power ending well.

If it were a sports match, every commentator would be (tediously) banging on about how the momentum (ha!) is with Labour now, regardless of the score.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:16 
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Cavey wrote:
:DD

Trouble is, of course, people (well, most people ;) ) get wiser with age, and tend towards small c Conservativism as they get older. It stands to reason; people see more of life and gather knowledge and experience (plus, they have more to lose, and they'll remember first hand the disastrous outcomes of previous Labour governments directly). So the simplistic idealism of youth is gradually supplanted by a wiser pragmatism. So basically, I don't see the Tories' sensible, intelligent and pragmatic voter base dying off any time soon. Good grief... :D

By and large the Tories voter base also voted for fucking Brexit. Not sure how sensible, intelligent and pragmatic that makes them tbh.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:24 
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Cavey wrote:
:DD

Trouble is, of course, people (well, most people ;) ) get wiser with age, and tend towards small c Conservativism as they get older. It stands to reason; people see more of life and gather knowledge and experience (plus, they have more to lose, and they'll remember first hand the disastrous outcomes of previous Labour governments directly). So the simplistic idealism of youth is gradually supplanted by a wiser pragmatism. So basically, I don't see the Tories' sensible, intelligent and pragmatic voter base dying off any time soon. Good grief... :D


Because of course all sensible and pragmatic people vote Tory, and the people on this board are all teenagers.

People are starting to see that ideological austerity that is designed to widen the gap between the rich and the poor is a bad choice. Looking at recent tragic events and seeing that axing support to the police, to firefighters, to doctors and nurses, and to people who are just trying to live their lives without getting burned to death is a bad thing. All signs point that if another election was called tomorrow then Labour would likely get a majority.

Now, they obviously didn't win. Lost, in fact. But vote share and total votes went up; it just also went up for the Tories as UKIP fell away to nothing, and the SNP were massively cut in Scotland. But it might bring back onside the moderates, and their influence on Corbyn could result in something very electable. Depends what the Tories do. But at the moment they are having an absolute disaster on Brexit, and May is now very unpopular.

It's the same old, same old. Labour get in, build up the state, people feel less reliant on it and on them, people vote Tory, Tories dismantle welfare state, people get angry, people vote Labour, etc.

Oh for a sensible centrist option.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:25 
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Cavey wrote:
. I mean, it's all a very far cry from the halcyon days, still less than a decade ago, with three landslides chalked up on the bounce, right? .


Both parties got a higher share of the vote than Labour did in 2005. Thanks for the disproportionate outocmes, First-Past-the-Post.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:41 
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Kern wrote:
Cavey wrote:
. I mean, it's all a very far cry from the halcyon days, still less than a decade ago, with three landslides chalked up on the bounce, right? .


Both parties got a higher share of the vote than Labour did in 2005. Thanks for the disproportionate outocmes, First-Past-the-Post.


A good part of that is down to the Lib Dem meltdown, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:20 
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I think there is a very good chance that this coming parliament will go down as a disastrous outcome to outclass all previous disastrous outcomes, at least in living memory of a decent chunk of the electorate. I think Brexit, the way it seems to be going, stands a good chance of being the poll tax, winter of discontent and financial crash all rolled into one, and utterly self-inflicted. And I also don't see much small-c conservatism in the current government - they're charging headlong into a purely ideological approach to this without a clue what they're doing, swinging wildly in the dark, purely because they're scared of their back benchers and the Daily Mail.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:44 
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https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/j ... ns-prisons

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"Caring for inmates with dementia can be distressing for officers, as well as fellow prisoners. One officer, who asked to remain anonymous, had such a prisoner on his wing. Overnight, every night, the prisoner would forget that he was guilty of any crime and wake, expecting to be in his own bed, at home. Every morning, the officer had to allocate extra time to gently break the news to him yet again that he was in prison, why and for how long. It was, the officer said, deeply upsetting – not just for the prisoner, but for him, too. 'Of course this prisoner should be punished for his crime,' the officer said. 'But his condition meant his punishment was many times worse than a prisoner without dementia. I ended up feeling that he was going through something closer to torture than to civilised punishment. It didn’t seem humane and it didn’t seem fair.'"


Christ, that's bloody terrible.

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