Political Banter and Debate Thread

Anonymous X · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 2046

MaliA wrote:

Interesting interview with NUS President Malia Bouattia.

Antisemite, simple and plain. Who can't even be honest about her prejudices.

myp · **Posted:** Mon Sep 19, 2016 13:36

Not just Corbyn.

Mr Dave · **Posted:** Mon Sep 19, 2016 14:01

MaliA wrote:

Interesting interview with NUS President Malia Bouattia.

You know, if you want to know why there's such a low voter turnout, it may be more sensible to go and ask people why they didn't vote, or just admit you don't know, rather than pulling some clearly bonkers conspiracy theory out of your arse.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Mon Sep 19, 2016 15:56

Mr Dave wrote:

MaliA wrote:

Interesting interview with NUS President Malia Bouattia.

You know, if you want to know why there's such a low voter turnout, it may be more sensible to go and ask people why they didn't vote, or just admit you don't know, rather than pulling some clearly bonkers conspiracy theory out of your arse.

I think her reasoning is legit, but it only applies to a minority of people. Most just can't be arsed or are busy.

Anonymous X · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 2046

Anyone who's been to university can attest to how apolitical most students tend to be, IMO.

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Sep 20, 2016 19:18

MaliA wrote:

Cavey wrote:

Joey Barton, QT, and his "four ugly birds" analogy.... :facepalm:

Man, it was excruciating

Comedic football tea time email thinks the same as all 1,057 of us.

Quote:

As is well known, Joey Barton has occasionally struggled to contain his anger in the past – indeed, you could say that on a few regrettable occasions his anger has overpowered him, nutted him in the face, kneed him in the danglers or stubbed a cigar out in his eye – but the midfielder has manfully faced up to his issue, albeit after being manfully sent down for it, and he now appears to be a changing man.

The QPR shuffler has won admiration for striving to overcome thuggish tendencies and for engaging in discussions on a wide range of topics on Twitter and elsewhere. And when people disagree with him online or point out inconsistencies in his reasoning, he does not resort to physical violence, instead preferring a more sophisticated reaction, perhaps involving the deployment of words such as ‘muppet’, ‘helmet’ or ‘beIIend’ or a spot of metaphorical wad-waving. Barton is a shameless attention-seeker and it is his luck to exist in times where attention seekers always get what they want – including an invitation to appear on the BBC’s flagship current affairs debate programme, Question Time.

Yes, amid a full-blown housing crisis in Britain, a “political earthquake” across Europe and escalating conflict in Ukraine, the Central African Republic and Nigeria, the BBC has decided that the best way to deepen public understanding of the major issues of the day is to ask Barton to share the expertise that he has managed to amass on these matters in between launching free-kicks in the general direction of Charlie Austin. The Fiver has no beef with Barton being allowed to express his views on whatever he fancies – he could be more honest than many politicians, but we would quite like the BBC to come right out and admit that Question Time is just another reality TV show, where the point is not to pursue enlightenment but to provide entertainment through cringes. Then again, you could argue that the corporation has basically done that by announcing that Barton’s fellow panellists tonight will be Jordan, a lemur who does a hilarious Noel Edmonds impression after a few drinks, and Piers Morgan. OK, that last one was just a ridiculous exaggeration for comedic effect.

He has a book out

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Well that's done then. Six months spend bothering with the stupid question of whether a leader who wins in a massive landslide can be unseated a year later, with the obvious result. Now maybe it's time to do some politics.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38464

That would be nice

MaliA · **Posted:** Mon Sep 26, 2016 13:17

I do not see myself voting for Labour with Corbyn at the helm. It's a buggar, as they were/are the best chance of getting rid of Philip Davies from Shipley.

Kern · **Posted:** Mon Sep 26, 2016 13:24

MaliA wrote:

I do not see myself voting for Labour with Corbyn at the helm. It's a buggar, as they were/are the best chance of getting rid of Philip Davies from Shipley.

What if the Labour candidate is not a fan of Mr Corbyn? Would you vote for them as the best person to represent you, regardless of the Labour leadership?

MaliA · **Posted:** Mon Sep 26, 2016 13:30

Kern wrote:

MaliA wrote:

I do not see myself voting for Labour with Corbyn at the helm. It's a buggar, as they were/are the best chance of getting rid of Philip Davies from Shipley.

What if the Labour candidate is not a fan of Mr Corbyn? Would you vote for them as the best person to represent you, regardless of the Labour leadership?

I think I'd somehow be endorsing his leadership.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:58

The stages of the American Presidential Debate:

1 - Fear that somehow Hillary will screw it up.
2 - Unbridled relief as she destroys Trump.
3 - Hilarity as he makes a complete idiot of himself in front of the world
4 - Amazement at the blindness of his supporters
5 - Horror at his supporters revelling in the joy that he is an idiot, but he's their own white supremacist love doll idiot.

No even semi-rational person could see what happened and not be horrified. Fucking hell, America. This isn't Brexit or Boris Johnson, this is on the scale of electing someone from fucking TOWIE.

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16560

Yeah, with Brexit you knew that there was an excellent chance that someone who voted leave was at least a bit of a racist fuckwit, whereas anyone who votes for Trump definitely is. So about half of the American electorate are thick, racist scum. I used to wonder how the whole Nazi thing ever could have happened, couldn't quite grasp it because I believed that the massive majority of people were decent. Brexit and now this has shattered that illusion. It doesn't even really matter any more who wins or loses this election because it's not all going to just go away. The Republicans will just field a slightly less insane far-right bastard for the next election and win then.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

markg wrote:

Yeah, with Brexit you knew that there was an excellent chance that someone who voted leave was at least a bit of a racist fuckwit, whereas anyone who votes for Trump definitely is. So about half of the American electorate are thick, racist scum.

You know this shitty attitude just reinforces the Trump voters' opinions, right?

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16560

Oh fuck off. Anyone who endorses that twat has a fucking screw loose. I'm telling it how I see it not running the Clinton campaign.

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16560

Oh, I know they're all just poor little disenfranchised flowers. Same as all the cunts who voted to leave the EU because they don't "identify with westminster" or some shit. Nope, I'm all out of patience for people just lashing out like fucking toddlers, making idiotic decisions and then everyone else has to pick up the pieces.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:37

It's the sheer bloody-mindedness of it that irks me.

Trump: "Stupid statement"
Moderator: "Thereford shows otherwise."
Trump: "No it doesn't."

He could walk out there, say white is black, do a Nazi salute, admit to being paid by Putin, call Obama a nigger, Hillary a slut, say he hates all Americans, and on current showing his poll numbers would go up.

He's openly racist, sexist, and in the debate even bragged about avoiding tax and cheering on the economic crisis so he could take advantage. He's rabidly anti-constitutional, and last night flipped into being briefly against the second amendment.

I, just, how? How is this working? How is going against every single Republican ideal playing well with Republicans? He could skull-fuck Reagan's corpse and they'd lap it up. It makes me so angry.

Mr Dave · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:42

Because, broadly speaking, republican voters couldn't give a damn about republican cakes. Or republican values.

devilman · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:42

A friend of mine (who seems pretty sane and sensible generally) in the US has made it pretty clear on Facebook that she supports Trump, with her logic being that of the two, he's the least worst option. :blown:

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:44

Tactical voting is good

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38464

When it boils down to it, a lot of Americans just straight-up hate Hilary Clinton.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:51

DavPaz wrote:

When it boils down to it, a lot of Americans just straight-up hate Hilary Clinton.

Yep. She gets hated more for getting cheated on than Trump gets for repeatedly cheating on his multiple wives.

Plus, general low level resentment of the world feeds well into someone who is basically a stupid, pampered bully. It's every US High School drama ever!

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:54

The worrying thing for the US is that It's not the Trump presidency per se the Republicans really want. It's the seats on the Supreme Court that are likely to become vacant during the next administration that they want the ability to fill which is the bigger prize.

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:55

We should call them back to heel and let Prince Harry run it. They'd love it.

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:56

MaliA wrote:

We should call them back to heel and let Prince Harry run it. They'd love it.

In exchange for a better Brexit deal, we could offer France and Spain their bits back.

Pundabaya · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 5016

Trump? The least worst option? The human wotsit? Really...

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:59

Pundabaya wrote:

The human wotsit

Wiping tea off my monitor at that! Superb.

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16560

devilman wrote:

A friend of mine (who seems pretty sane and sensible generally) in the US has made it pretty clear on Facebook that she supports Trump, with her logic being that of the two, he's the least worst option. :blown:

Well I hate to break this to you but I reckon she is neither sane nor sensible or at least she has some fairly horrible views. Because it's so transparently obvious that people have latched on to any news story painting Clinton as being somehow uniquely worse than any other candidate in living memory simply in order to justify their support for the one who is saying many of the vile things they always thought.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Pundabaya wrote:

Trump? The least worst option? The human wotsit? Really...

Yes. Clinton is The Establishment through and through (even her supporters would struggle to deny that, I think.) If you hate The Establishment, you hate her. And happily for you, Trump is definitely not The Establishment, so you have a very satisfactory alternative.

Condescendingly dismissing this reasoning as markg does is dangerous, because it's how we got here in the first place. Trump grows stronger when the "liberal elite" dismiss him and dismiss his supporters. Look at Clinton's "basket of deplorables" comment -- Trump supporters are putting it on t-shirts now. It's a point of pride to them to be held in contempt by someone who epitomises the system that, in their eyes, is taking away their rights and sending their jobs abroad.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38464

It's fucking UKIP all over again.

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

Curiosity wrote:

He could walk out there, say white is black, do a Nazi salute, admit to being paid by Putin, call Obama a nigger, Hillary a slut, say he hates all Americans, and on current showing his poll numbers would go up.

He's openly racist, sexist, and in the debate even bragged about avoiding tax and cheering on the economic crisis so he could take advantage. He's rabidly anti-constitutional, and last night flipped into being briefly against the second amendment.

It's exactly that which makes me sympathise with MarkG's post. I think Trump is just giving 'credibility' to the racist views of so many people. There will among them be those for whom immigration is a real concern, (same with the Brexit vote), but those otherwise moderate people can only listen to so much of Trump's racist rhetoric before turning away from what would surely be for their moderate views an extreme position, or endorse it. If they continue to endorse it, how can they not be racist? (And sexist, and everything else-ist?)

I don't think anyone can lay blame of that strength of racist opinion st the feet of anyone but the racists.

The same is true of Brexit. The Brexit racist rhetoric was plain enough to see by the end if the campaign. Even if there were those who'd have originally voted leave for other, more viable reasons, the campaign was run on xenophobia, and voting leave at the end of all that HAD to be seen to endorse that campaign of xenophobia and racism.

It's genuinely bewildering the trend towards far right politics these past few years, and scary as all heck.

It's a sickening thought, but I can almost imagine the Trump camp lighting up each time there is an attack of any kind because they can see those reactionary points all being marked up in his favour.

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:07

Trump and his ilk are basically the heirs to the brilliantly-named 'Know-nothing Party' that flourished on a wave of nativism in the 1850s.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:12

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Pundabaya wrote:

Trump? The least worst option? The human wotsit? Really...

Yes. Clinton is The Establishment through and through (even her supporters would struggle to deny that, I think.) If you hate The Establishment, you hate her. And happily for you, Trump is definitely not The Establishment, so you have a very satisfactory alternative.

Condescendingly dismissing this reasoning as markg does is dangerous, because it's how we got here in the first place. Trump grows stronger when the "liberal elite" dismiss him and dismiss his supporters. Look at Clinton's "basket of deplorables" comment -- Trump supporters are putting it on t-shirts now. It's a point of pride to them to be held in contempt by someone who epitomises the system that, in their eyes, is taking away their rights and sending their jobs abroad.

But how do you fight this? Because Trump is very, very, very much The Establishment. Born into countless riches, given every privilege in life ever (way more so than Clinton, who was obviously no pauper) he literally lives in a giant tower with a golden throne. He has the support of the media, who will do anything he asks of them. He runs countless businesses and is the one who is sending the jobs under his control out of the country (his clothing line is made in China, for example).

He doesn't care at all about the people who support him. Clinton has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt throughout her career that she will do more for those people who are voting for Trump. Just look at their reactions to 9/11 - she tirelessly campaigned for help for the first responders, whilst he took money from a fund meant to help small businesses, and bragged that his tower was now the tallest in the city.

You can explain this all to Trump supporters, but they don't want to hear it, so what can you do? You can't reason with them, you can't appeal to their values, you can't dismiss them. It's a cult of personality.

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

If you are ok with:

'I'm a racist!'
On the basis of:

'You may be a racist, but you're an anti-establishment racist, so that's ok'

Then you have to be a racist. The 'plus' points of that person's point of view could never balance out that Trump is a racist, no matter the excuses given as 'the least bad option', or whatever.

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16560

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Pundabaya wrote:

Trump? The least worst option? The human wotsit? Really...

Yes. Clinton is The Establishment through and through (even her supporters would struggle to deny that, I think.) If you hate The Establishment, you hate her. And happily for you, Trump is definitely not The Establishment, so you have a very satisfactory alternative.

Condescendingly dismissing this reasoning as markg does is dangerous, because it's how we got here in the first place.

Is it bollocks. Most Trump supporters aren't cheering him on because they think he isn't a member of the establishment. They don't merely tolerate his racist and sexist views they chime with their own. "how we got here in the first place" is by having an overwhelmingly right wing media stoking up fear and prejudice to the point where in many people's minds Trump seems like the only sensible reaction to it all.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Yeah, this idea that Trump isn't a blue-blood with his fingers in exactly as many corporate pies as career politicians is bizarre. He's so corrupt he's funding his own businesses out of campaign funds - imagine what'll happen when he gets to draft appropriations bills!

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

Cras wrote:

Yeah, this idea that Trump isn't a blue-blood with his fingers in exactly as many corporate pies as career politicians is bizarre. He's so corrupt he's funding his own businesses out of campaign funds - imagine what'll happen when he gets to draft appropriations bills!

Yes, in which vein he may not be establishment because he is so much more corrupt and self-serving than the establishment. It's odd to think that anyone could reasonably support him on the basis of such a ridiculous premise.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Cras wrote:

Yeah, this idea that Trump isn't a blue-blood with his fingers in exactly as many corporate pies as career politicians is bizarre. He's so corrupt he's funding his own businesses out of campaign funds - imagine what'll happen when he gets to draft appropriations bills!

Sure, but my point is: bringing facts to a debate about Trump's appeal to his base is a category error. They simply don't care about facts, or about how he said something that contradicts something else he said. If they did, he'd never have made it this far.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

The problem isn't so much that Trump supporters are awful racists so much as that they are lied to, constantly and pervasively. Same with Brexit. The two events are linked by the amount of breathtaking lies that are constantly thrust in people's faces. People trust the media, particularly those who don't like to research for themselves, and the media are telling them over and over again that forriners are coming for their jobs and their lives. The dog whistle works when you blow it over and over again.

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:30

Mimi wrote:

Cras wrote:

Yeah, this idea that Trump isn't a blue-blood with his fingers in exactly as many corporate pies as career politicians is bizarre. He's so corrupt he's funding his own businesses out of campaign funds - imagine what'll happen when he gets to draft appropriations bills!

Yes, in which vein he may not be establishment because he is so much more corrupt and self-serving than the establishment. It's odd to think that anyone could reasonably support him on the basis of such a ridiculous premise.

People thought George W Bush was 'one of us' rather than a blue-blood establishment figure too. And Trump makes W look half-way decent which is frankly unforgiveable.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Cras wrote:

Yeah, this idea that Trump isn't a blue-blood with his fingers in exactly as many corporate pies as career politicians is bizarre. He's so corrupt he's funding his own businesses out of campaign funds - imagine what'll happen when he gets to draft appropriations bills!

Sure, but my point is: bringing facts to a debate about Trump's appeal to his base is a category error. They simply don't care about facts, or about how he said something that contradicts something else he said. If they did, he'd never have made it this far.

And how do you fight that? How do you address a campaign based on outright lies when you can't even correct those lies without being at best ignored, and at worst reviled for it?

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:32

Cras wrote:

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Cras wrote:

Yeah, this idea that Trump isn't a blue-blood with his fingers in exactly as many corporate pies as career politicians is bizarre. He's so corrupt he's funding his own businesses out of campaign funds - imagine what'll happen when he gets to draft appropriations bills!

Sure, but my point is: bringing facts to a debate about Trump's appeal to his base is a category error. They simply don't care about facts, or about how he said something that contradicts something else he said. If they did, he'd never have made it this far.

And how do you fight that? How do you address a campaign based on outright lies when you can't even correct those lies without being at best ignored, and at worst reviled for it?

Chewbacca defence

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:33

Cras wrote:

And how do you fight that? How do you address a campaign based on outright lies when you can't even correct those lies without being at worst ignored, and at best reviled for it?

That's the problem. Things aren't helped by recent Congresses being frankly dysfunctional and more interested in playing silly political games rather than attempting to solve problems. It's almost as if the entire system is broken although that's a heck of an exaggeration given that taxes are still being collected, laws still being enforced, and Twinkies are still a thing.

Mr Russell · **Joined:** 6th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 12243

Can we chuck this into a Trump Vs Clinton thread?

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Cras wrote:

And how do you fight that? How do you address a campaign based on outright lies when you can't even correct those lies without being at best ignored, and at worst reviled for it?

I don't know. I suspect you have to play the long game, though. It's already too late to change it for this election. I am sure you don't get anywhere without at least attempting to understand the psychology of the "other side."

Curiosity · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:36

The whole problem stemmed from the vaguely sensible half of the Republican Party allowing the insane half to rant and rave as it gave them ammo to use against Obama. Then when they tried to calm it down, the realised in classic Disaster Movie fashion that they could no longer control the best they had created.

Hillary Clinton is flawed, but so are we all, and she's our last hope. She's a goddamn hero.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:37

As Kern said, I think that if there were no Supreme Court vacancies, the Reps would have probably thrown the election.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38464

myp · **Posted:** Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:51

markg wrote:

Oh, I know they're all just poor little disenfranchised flowers. Same as all the cunts who voted to leave the EU because they don't "identify with westminster" or some shit. Nope, I'm all out of patience for people just lashing out like fucking toddlers, making idiotic decisions and then everyone else has to pick up the pieces.

But the same is happening on the left too.

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16560

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Cras wrote:

And how do you fight that? How do you address a campaign based on outright lies when you can't even correct those lies without being at best ignored, and at worst reviled for it?

I don't know. I suspect you have to play the long game, though. It's already too late to change it for this election. I am sure you don't get anywhere without at least attempting to understand the psychology of the "other side."

I really don't think it's that hard to understand. People have had fear instilled in them, fear of foreigners, fear of crime. They're inhabiting a different reality. Until you can solve the problem of how to not have a sensationalist right wing media spreading outright lies then I think you're on a hiding to nothing.

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